steve
Member
Posts: 12,245
|
Post by steve on Aug 10, 2022 16:39:43 GMT
@crofty "Truss says she will do everything she can to help families “who work hard and do the right thing.” Sorry Jacob! Attachments:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 16:45:09 GMT
It was correct for Muslims to be judged collectively, he argued. “You keep saying that I make these generalisations,” he said. “But the truth is, if you do belong to a group, whether it is a church, or a football club, you identify with a particular set of values, and you stand for it. And frankly you are judged by that.” If you said exactly that about Jews you would certainly be regarded as anti-Semitic. Muslims (like Jews) are extremely diverse both religiously and politically and you cannot hold whole groups collectively responsible for the actions of sub-groups without discrimination.
"It is racist to essentialize (treat a character trait as inherent) or to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population." jerusalemdeclaration.org/Incidentally, I have linked to the Jerusalem Declaration as this is preferable to the IHRA one in recognising that criticism of Israeli policy is not inherently anti-Semitic. Wiki explains that Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group.-" in modern secular usage Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion" Wiki says Muslims are "Muslims are people who adhere to Islam, an Abrahamic religion." So whilst anti-semitism might have a racist element, depending upon the case in question; Islamophobia is an attitude to a religion and ( some or all of) people who are its adherants. There have been surveys of the attitudes and opinions of British Muslims , both in connection with Phillips' C4 programme and otherwise.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2022 16:46:38 GMT
@crofty "Truss says she will do everything she can to help families “who work hard and do the right thing.” Sorry Jacob! I belong to a family that works hard and does the right thing. If Truss wants to do everything she can to help me she can clear off and never be heard from again.
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 10, 2022 16:47:23 GMT
@danny - "Shame that, so I don't get to debunk them again in detail. Deaths from covid in Hastings are available on the government dashboard. If you look, you will see they are negligible all through the officially first spring 2020 outbreak and do not start until Kent strain hits Hastings in the autumn."
Sorry son, but you couldn't debunk Elvis sitting on a grassy knoll in the Bermuda Triangle. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about.
The mistake you have made here is to take normal statistical variation, and then invent a load of complete bollocks, that has been tested and disproved by science in ways that you simply don't understand, and then claim that the numbers back up your weird ideas.
For example, if I compare the local area where I live, I too can create a statistical anomaly which I could then use to pin a daft theory on. In Hastings, covid deaths per million in quarters 1 - 4 in 2020 were respectively 10.89, 87.12, 21.78 and 1001.88, total 1121.67 for 2020. Well behind the national average for England.
In my local area, the comparative numbers were 0, 0, 333.33 and 666.66, total 1000.
So, there were fewer cases here than in Hastings, with a more pronounced bias towards the autumn/winter. But believe me - there was no covid here in 2019. It's just the wonderful world of statistical variation. No need for wacko theories to try to explain this.
So no - you haven't debunked anything I'm afraid.
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 10, 2022 16:52:33 GMT
Liz Truss- "I'm an MP in Norfolk and love the Old Hanseatic League."
Wiki - "Despite its inherent structural weaknesses, the Hanseatic League managed to endure and thrive for centuries under a quasi-legislative diet that operated on deliberation and consensus. Members united on the basis of mutual interest and comity, working together to pool resources, raise levies, and amicably resolve disputes to further common goals. The League's long-lived success and unity during a period of political upheaval and fragmentation has led to it being described as the most successful trade alliance in history, while its unique governance structure has been identified as a precursor to the supranational model of the European Union."
Is she trying to say something here?
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Aug 10, 2022 16:52:47 GMT
It is curious that the word mortgage translates as dead hand, but that the mortgage has been a basis for capital investment for a thousand years. With the penchant, in some quarters, for trying to equate the management of the national economy to the management of a household, it is curious that that doesn't extend to capital investment from borrowing to increase national wealth, in the way that a household would enter into a mortgage to purchase property. "Death pledge", actually. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mortgage
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 16:53:58 GMT
@crofty "Truss says she will do everything she can to help families “who work hard and do the right thing.” Sorry Jacob! I belong to a family that works hard and does the right thing. If Truss wants to do everything she can to help me she can clear off and never be heard from again. Of course, no interviewer ever asks: “Why do you stipulate families? What about single people who ‘do the right thing’ and what is the right thing anyway? What about childless couples?” etc etc etc. But every leadership contest and election is replete with politicians mouthing this vacuous nonsense without ever being asked to explain.
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 10, 2022 16:54:43 GMT
Hard to think anything other than fuck'em. Having your holiday in Crimea spoilt isn't the same as bulldozing your town and killing thousands of civilians, but that's what you started -
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2022 16:55:04 GMT
If you said exactly that about Jews you would certainly be regarded as anti-Semitic. Muslims (like Jews) are extremely diverse both religiously and politically and you cannot hold whole groups collectively responsible for the actions of sub-groups without discrimination.
"It is racist to essentialize (treat a character trait as inherent) or to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population." jerusalemdeclaration.org/Incidentally, I have linked to the Jerusalem Declaration as this is preferable to the IHRA one in recognising that criticism of Israeli policy is not inherently anti-Semitic. Wiki explains that Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group.-" in modern secular usage Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion" Wiki says Muslims are "Muslims are people who adhere to Islam, an Abrahamic religion." So whilst anti-semitism might have a racist element, depending upon the case in question; Islamophobia is an attitude to a religion and ( some or all of) people who are its adherants. There have been surveys of the attitudes and opinions of British Muslims , both in connection with Phillips' C4 programme and otherwise. But Islam is not monolithic. It has many different traditions. Sunni and Shia most obviously, but even within those major divisions there any many sub-sects with different views. The difference between a Wahabist and a Sufi are vast (the former would probably not even regard the latter as a Muslim). Surveys of Muslims' opinions show a diverse range of views on a variety of issues. Pretending that all Muslims are identical is the first step to saying that they all support terrorism, and that is the problem with Phillips statement.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2022 17:00:47 GMT
I belong to a family that works hard and does the right thing. If Truss wants to do everything she can to help me she can clear off and never be heard from again. Of course, no interviewer ever asks: “Why do you stipulate families? What about single people who ‘do the right thing’ and what is the right thing anyway? What about childless couples?” etc etc etc. But every leadership contest and election is replete with politicians mouthing this vacuous nonsense without ever being asked to explain. Actually whenever I hear politicians chunter on about "hard working families" (and Blair and Brown were keen on that too) I always think I would vote for the politician who said: "My policy is to ensure that you don't have to work as hard to live and get more free time". I suppose it is a legacy of the old Protestant work ethic.
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2022 17:06:26 GMT
Of course, no interviewer ever asks: “Why do you stipulate families? What about single people who ‘do the right thing’ and what is the right thing anyway? What about childless couples?” etc etc etc. But every leadership contest and election is replete with politicians mouthing this vacuous nonsense without ever being asked to explain. Actually whenever I hear politicians chunter on about "hard working families" (and Blair and Brown were keen on that too) I always think I would vote for the politician who said: "My policy is to ensure that you don't have to work as hard to live and get more free time". I suppose it is a legacy of the old Protestant work ethic. I actually think it's much more malevolent than that. It's a dog whistle and type of othering. A version of Osborne's strivers v skivers. There are hard working families and then there are......
|
|
|
Post by lefthanging on Aug 10, 2022 17:17:55 GMT
If you said exactly that about Jews you would certainly be regarded as anti-Semitic. Muslims (like Jews) are extremely diverse both religiously and politically and you cannot hold whole groups collectively responsible for the actions of sub-groups without discrimination.
"It is racist to essentialize (treat a character trait as inherent) or to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population." jerusalemdeclaration.org/Incidentally, I have linked to the Jerusalem Declaration as this is preferable to the IHRA one in recognising that criticism of Israeli policy is not inherently anti-Semitic.
Many instinctively see Jewishness as a religion, rather than an ethnicity, and therefore antisemitism as religious intolerance rather than racism, despite, as I’ve pointed out many times, my great-uncle being an atheist not getting him any free passes out of the Warsaw ghetto.
I agree with Baddiel here but it makes me wonder. Often Judaism is seen as somewhat unique insofar that it is a world religion but also in some way an ethnicity (although Islam is increasingly seen in this way by some, and there are many minor so-called 'ethnic religions' such as the Yazidis). But we would not, for instance, usually regard Catholicism or Protestantism as ethnicities. However, I don't think the IRA would let those with a Protestant background off the hook just because they didn't sign up to the 39 Articles; nor would a disbelief in transubstantiation or the immaculate conception be much defence for those of Catholic background contending against Loyalist paramilitaries. Does that make them ethnicities too by Baddiel's logic? One could argue that in this case - like many so-called 'religious wars' - religion is basically being used and abused as a proxy for a more fundamental (usually economic or territory-based) interest, and therefore it's not really working like an ethnicity in the same way Jewishness is. Nevertheless it does seem that, in certain localised situation, even normally multi-racial religions can acquire quasi-ethnic properties. Personally I wonder whether 'culture' is a better term to describe this phenomenon. Either way both racial and religious prejudice are wrong. Christianity is clearly a religion and not a race, but it probably boasts a greater diversity of belief and praxis than any other human movement, and I am not going to judge members of the Westboro Baptist Church the same as some kindly vegan hermit.
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Aug 10, 2022 17:19:46 GMT
colin"It was correct for Muslims to be judged collectively, he argued. “You keep saying that I make these generalisations,” he said. “But the truth is, if you do belong to a group, whether it is a church, or a football club, you identify with a particular set of values, and you stand for it. And frankly you are judged by that.” If you agree with this view of Phillips, you must agree by extension that all Christians must be judged collectively. So all Christians must be judged in the light of those Christians who committed the Srebenica massacre of Muslim men and boys. Do you agree with that?
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2022 17:33:16 GMT
Is it the economy, stupid? If it is, then the Tories are in trouble as the economic skies continue to darken.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 17:50:17 GMT
Actually whenever I hear politicians chunter on about "hard working families" (and Blair and Brown were keen on that too) I always think I would vote for the politician who said: "My policy is to ensure that you don't have to work as hard to live and get more free time". I suppose it is a legacy of the old Protestant work ethic. I actually think it's much more malevolent than that. It's a dog whistle and type of othering. A version of Osborne's strivers v skivers. There are hard working families and then there are...... Exactly my view. It’s sort of clever, as nothing is explicit but the implication is very clear. There is the way that “normal”, “decent” people live, out of a sense of duty rather than simply by fortune or choice and then there’s the rest of society who flout these norms by being poor, unfortunate or unwell, whether physically or mentally and so on. I find it despicable and unforgivable.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,245
|
Post by steve on Aug 10, 2022 18:00:47 GMT
Cosplay Thatcher describes herself as a great fan of " the hanseatic league" for those not up on their 13th to 15th century history the league was a cross border association of independent self governing European areas that came together in a group with free movement of goods and people and cooperation on defence , education and law and order, a sort of what's the word ...union of europeans.
Ffs!
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Aug 10, 2022 18:07:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Aug 10, 2022 18:19:59 GMT
Well, in fairness to those odds, Clinton did win in 2016! By about three million votes too. The idiosyncratic electoral college converted that into a Trump victory. Besides, in terms of the likelihood of a Trump return, he's got a bit more baggage than he had in 2016. Four years in the White House illustrating the sort if President he was and would be again, a pretty resounding defeat in both the electoral college and popular vote thereafter and mounting criminal investigations now. He's got his rabid and noisy fans, but a victory in 2024? No chance. Hi crossbat11, I'm on hols atm and only popping in occasionally to see if anything interesting is going on. I fear you may be underestimating the support for Trump amongst key elements of the Republican base (he gave the religious right what they wanted most - a SC that would overturn Roe vs Wade), and Democrats are broadly disillusioned with Biden's performance. As elsewhere the US faces a cost of living crisis - which incumbents may be penalised for. If he doesn't get sent to gaol I wouldn't write him off.
|
|
|
Post by isa on Aug 10, 2022 18:31:03 GMT
PS The Corn is Green film is a bit corny. The film of Greenwood's Love on the Dole ('41) is much better. Watching it at 10 or 11, I loved the scene where the broke young Manchester working-class couple win a large sum from a back street bookie with a 6d bet & blow it on a holiday to Blackpool? I didn't get that the boy's sister, D Kerr, later becomes the mistress of the bookie, a dastardly villain, to keep her family in food. I love the way you could really enjoy those old movies as a kid, while the sex passed over yr head. I just accepted that a couple kissing was followed by a wave crashing on a beach & then the couple having a smoke. Ah innocence. A really corny film about Welsh miners was Ford's How Green Was My Valley. It won numerous Oscars in '41, including best film. The other nominees for best pic that year were Citizen Kane! and the lesser-known but excellent The Little FoxesI love some of those old films, Love on the Dole is a fantastic book, I have not seen the film. I tend to like corny films from the 1950's The Titfield Thunderbolt, Genevive and The Ladykillers come to mind. You can watch some crackers on Talking Pictures the tv channel, but for real nostalgia they show Richard Greene as Robin Hood in the 50's 60's TV series along with Hawkeye and the Last of the Mohicans and William Tell all of which takes me back to my 5/6 year old self with waves of nostalgia. I think I saw Love on the Dole on TP a while ago, with an absurdly young but strikingly attractive Deborah Kerr. Can't fault your corny '50s classics, although I think all three were filmed in colour, not entirely usual at the time. I wonder if that helped them spring so readily to your mind. The Titfield Thunderbolt in particular makes striking use of colour. As you say, TP is a treasure trove of nostalgic joy. Even now, I come across little gems I've not seen for yonks, if ever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 18:41:03 GMT
Cosplay Thatcher describes herself as a great fan of " the hanseatic league" for those not up on their 13th to 15th century history the league was a cross border association of independent self governing European areas that came together in a group with free movement of goods and people and cooperation on defence , education and law and order, a sort of what's the word ...union of europeans. Ffs! I thought it was a sort of free sex group from the olden days.
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,082
|
Post by oldnat on Aug 10, 2022 18:45:37 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,245
|
Post by steve on Aug 10, 2022 18:55:20 GMT
@crofty
"I thought it was a sort of free sex group from the olden days."
whatever plucks your guitar!
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 9,768
|
Post by Danny on Aug 10, 2022 18:55:20 GMT
The mistake you have made here is to take normal statistical variation, and then invent a load of complete bollocks, that has been tested and disproved by science in ways that you simply don't understand, and then claim that the numbers back up your weird ideas. For example, if I compare the local area where I live, I too can create a statistical anomaly which I could then use to pin a daft theory on. In Hastings, covid deaths per million in quarters 1 - 4 in 2020 were respectively 10.89, 87.12, 21.78 and 1001.88, total 1121.67 for 2020. Well behind the national average for England. In my local area, the comparative numbers were 0, 0, 333.33 and 666.66, total 1000. So, there were fewer cases here than in Hastings, with a more pronounced bias towards the autumn/winter. But believe me - there was no covid here in 2019. It's jus the wonderful world of statistical variation. No need for wacko theories to try to explain this. So where do you live? Tell us, and I will check the figures for you. In the absence of this I have chosen a place at random, Kensington and Chelsea as a london borough. See the attached image showing what is a pretty typical result for comparing Hastings with most places in the UK. Attachment DeletedYou will see the double peak of deaths in Kensington, wheras there is just one in hastings after the Kent strain arrived. Scales are somewhat arbitrary as there dont seem to be any readily available figues for populations of different registation regions, and they vary a lot.
|
|
|
Post by isa on Aug 10, 2022 18:56:00 GMT
I agree and as you mentioned the Welsh miners - The proud valley is a very good film, and an interesting attempt for social realism. I think The Proud Valley came up on here recently. A very worthy film starring the magnificent Paul Robeson. It's occasionally on Talking Pictures, as is Its similarly themed contemporary, The Stars Look Down, starring Michael Redgrave and Margaret Lockwood, (also Emlyn Williams), fresh from their excellent performances in Hitchcock's wonderful The Lady Vanishes. In fact, TSLD was on TP just last week.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 9,768
|
Post by Danny on Aug 10, 2022 19:02:37 GMT
And heres another example, Nottingham. Attachment DeletedNotice this has three big peaks. The first is the spring 2020 outbreak. The second the wave which happened in northern England after schools returned, but did not happen in southern England. The third is the spread of the Kent strain.
If you look at the post for kensington above you can see there is a small peak corresponding to the schools return. There is a gradient roughly s-n across England with a bigger spike at that time the futher north. It shows how herd immunity had pretty much been achieved in the S to the first strain before lockdowns happened, whereas the process was incomplete in northern England. But had we given it another month it would have ended by itself, no need for lockdown at all.
|
|
|
Post by JohnC on Aug 10, 2022 19:10:30 GMT
I love some of those old films, Love on the Dole is a fantastic book, I have not seen the film. I tend to like corny films from the 1950's The Titfield Thunderbolt, Genevive and The Ladykillers come to mind. You can watch some crackers on Talking Pictures the tv channel, but for real nostalgia they show Richard Greene as Robin Hood in the 50's 60's TV series along with Hawkeye and the Last of the Mohicans and William Tell all of which takes me back to my 5/6 year old self with waves of nostalgia. I think I saw Love on the Dole on TP a while ago, with an absurdly young but strikingly attractive Deborah Kerr. Can't fault your corny '50s classics, although I think all three were filmed in colour, not entirely usual at the time. I wonder if that helped them spring so readily to your mind. The Titfield Thunderbolt in particular makes striking use of colour. As you say, TP is a treasure trove of nostalgic joy. Even now, I come across little gems I've not seen for yonks, if ever. I see TP shows the original Quatermass TV series, which brought back memories. I was about 9 years old when Quatermass and the Pit was first shown. A neighbour my mother knew well had a TV set (quite rare still in those days, particularly on a Council estate) and we would be regularly invited to watch. Quatermass must have had an impact on me as 60 odd years later it is the only TV show from that time I can now remember watching. If TP broadcast the Pit series, I will watch again, probably from behind the sofa once more!
|
|
|
Post by shevii on Aug 10, 2022 20:04:42 GMT
I actually think it's much more malevolent than that. It's a dog whistle and type of othering. A version of Osborne's strivers v skivers. There are hard working families and then there are...... Agreed and why do you need to give priority to either group? Do people who don't want a "family" count less than those who do, and do people who want to potter around making ends meet but prioritising their leisure time not deserve the same consideration as those who decide to work all hours that God gives them? I can respect hard work and maybe at the margins reward an "entrepreneur" who creates jobs or improves society in some way, but not to the exclusion of those who prefer happiness to "hard work".
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2022 20:13:38 GMT
I actually think it's much more malevolent than that. It's a dog whistle and type of othering. A version of Osborne's strivers v skivers. There are hard working families and then there are...... Exactly my view. It’s sort of clever, as nothing is explicit but the implication is very clear. There is the way that “normal”, “decent” people live, out of a sense of duty rather than simply by fortune or choice and then there’s the rest of society who flout these norms by being poor, unfortunate or unwell, whether physically or mentally and so on. I find it despicable and unforgivable. I had the always interesting delights of a chat with my father-in-law Len yesterday. Mercian likes to suggest that Labour supporters are 'tribal', well Len is a reminder that there are many on the right who are probably even more so. He is in his 80s now and through his entire life has never voted anything other than Tory and clearly never would. I raised the rather parlous state of Britain at present and in the course of the discussion he offered me four reasons for the problems. In the order these came up they were: (a) benefit claimants (he believes they are layabouts who will have all costs met in full on the back of 'hardworking' taxpayers - in reality most benefits go to pensioners and people who are in work); (b) trade unions (I had suggested we needed more affordable public transport as a green measure, he said when more people relied on buses and trains they had been 'ruined by militant trade unions'); (c) what he called "pointless eco-friendly nonsense" - electric cars were especially unpopular for some reason; (d) immigrants. If the conversation had gone on longer I have no doubt that 'woke' universities, the EU and the last Labour government would have come up (Len believes Gordon Brown was a Communist). I should point out that my father-in-law is not some low IQ idiot - he was an electronics engineer in his working days - but he has a closed mindset, gets his information from the Telegraph and reacts strongly against having his prejudices challenged, which by and large means they aren't. He genuinely believes that he has earned what he has in life (his childhood was not privileged) and that if others are less fortunate it is probably their fault. This is the type of thing I have in mind when I talk about 'cultural conservatives'.
|
|
|
Post by chrisaberavon on Aug 10, 2022 20:25:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Aug 10, 2022 20:52:40 GMT
Some more answers to colin's question about who is waging the war:
|
|