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Post by alec on Aug 9, 2022 7:37:38 GMT
@danny - "The vaccine really doesnt work to prevent spread of covid, and there seems to be consensus eradication is impossible."
Well before we had the brilliant vaccines I did try to tell you that we needed a 'vaccine plus' strategy, to guard against breakthrough infections undermining the efficacy of the jab, and you are wrong about the consensus on eradication. At least, you would be wrong if you knew what you were talking about.
We probably can't yet eradicate covid, at least, not until we develop neutralizing nasal spray vaccines, which are now looking quite close to realisation. Even better, if this method can be used to deliver pan-coronavirus vaccines, of which there are several candidates in early stage trials (which target several proteins on the main body of the virus, rather than the specific spike protein which is rapidly mutating) then we could well have a neutralising vaccine that can deal with all variants. That is some way off though.
If and when we do get to this point, the issue becomes delivery of the vaccine to the global population in a reasonably short time frame, because we haven't yet cracked the riddle of why covid immunity is so short lived. For this reason, eradication, in it's technical sense, will probably remain quite difficult, at least for a while.
What you won't know is that elimination is a defined technical term distinct from eradication (the complete global termination of a pathogen, a la smallpox) with elimination meaning the control of a pathogen in a given geographical area such that there is no community transmission. This remains perfectly possible, with limited cost (actually, with a substantial net financial benefit for the countries that can do this) - if people like you stop being so stupid.
Those with experience and expertise in disease control have a way of scoring pathogens to test how feasible such strategies are, based on the characteristics of the pathogen, and while covid is harder to eradicate than smallpox, it is substantially easier that polio, a disease that is eliminated in much of the world.
So no, there isn't a scientific consensus over the eradication or elimination of covid. The people who know about these things tell us that with a few simple measures we can eliminate covid, and with a bit more effort and in particular, another Operation Warp Speed or similar on the second generation vaccines, eradication becomes a live possibility.
As ever, you just talk total bollocks on all things covid. Rarely have I witnessed a poster with such untruthful views expound so voluminously on a topic about which they have almost zero knowledge.
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Post by jib on Aug 9, 2022 7:41:58 GMT
Danny"Democracy says a large third of the nation voted to leave the eu, while a small third voted to remain, while a slightly yet smaller third didnt vote at all. Pretty close result." 27.9% who didn't vote is much closer to a quarter. If you don't vote, you don't count. Tough, that's democracy. "To settle the issue once and for all" as David Cameron stated. Done. The referendum circus is packed up and gone away. There's still a few unemployed clowns on street corners and shouts for "encore". No.
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 9, 2022 7:58:41 GMT
JiB:"The referendum circus is packed up and gone away. There's still a few unemployed clowns on street corners and shouts for "encore". No."
Then I guess the alternative is the long, slow grind of brexit playing out until the effect is indisputable. If, as all the signs seem to show, that end point is of a poorer, more marginal, more divided country beset by social problems and unrest, the decade or more spent reaching that point will be worse than wasted. If, against all indicators, there is no real decline, then tickety-boo: all we will have lost is the possible better future as an EU member.
The question, it seems to me, is whether it's better to bail out of a doomed enterprise when you see the way the wind is blowing and there's still something to be salvaged, or to stick with it to the bitter end, Stalingrad style. Of course, brexiteers may respond to that analogy that it is the EU that is the doomed enterprise, and before long we'll see Ukraine switching from pinning its hopes on EU membership to begging to join the UK.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 8:10:10 GMT
Jones in Bangor Selected people one vote one time only then screw you all isn't democracy it's the tool of dictatorships. We're a sometimes comment site on polling here and the polling indicates that those currently supporting Brexit are a reducing minority,demographics and the abject failure to achieve any benefits despite the lies and media bias were always going to play out to some extent. What a prime minister whose government was elected by 20% of the population and then ran away to spend more time with his money said ,isn't actually the definitive statement of anything.
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Post by pete on Aug 9, 2022 8:11:17 GMT
JiB: "The referendum circus is packed up and gone away. There's still a few unemployed clowns on street corners and shouts for "encore". No."Then I guess the alternative is the long, slow grind of brexit playing out until the effect is indisputable. If, as all the signs seem to show, that end point is of a poorer, more marginal, more divided country beset by social problems and unrest, the decade or more spent reaching that point will be worse than wasted. If, against all indicators, there is no real decline, then tickety-boo: all we will have lost is the possible better future as an EU member. The question, it seems to me, is whether it's better to bail out of a doomed enterprise when you see the way the wind is blowing and there's still something to be salvaged, or to stick with it to the bitter end, Stalingrad style. Of course, brexiteers may respond to that analogy that it is the EU that is the doomed enterprise, and before long we'll see Ukraine switching from pinning its hopes on EU membership to begging to join the UK. Tbh, If the government not careful I think we're set for some serious civil disobedience. Worse that the poll tax riots. We're going to have thousands upon thousands of people who'll be working for no reason (particularly if this is true) www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/liz-truss-plans-could-cost-50bn-a-year-and-will-fail-to-help-poorest-cope/ar-AA10rFSz?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b5acf67a2a574fd2a0ec24da1cd0b734If you've no reason to work (all your money pays your rent/energy) and there is no joy in life and you may even be better off in jail what have you to lose? Added to this its the young fit healthy youth who are going to suffer the most. I doubt there's enough police to put a lid on it.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 8:16:14 GMT
pete " I doubt there's enough police to put a lid on it. " Given that the young fit healthy police officers tasked to do so will be in the same boat having had yet another real term pay cut I'm not actually sure how hard they would try. Provided it doesn't verge into riot there's going to be plenty of so what going on.
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Post by jib on Aug 9, 2022 8:18:50 GMT
steveIf you want to advocate rejoining the Federal EU, Schengen zone, Euro, Freedom of Movement, you are perfectly free to do so. We surrendered any opt outs when we divorced the EU, and I doubt they'd want the UK back (apart from the massive net contribution, balance of trading surplus and lots of relatively well paid jobs for Eastern European citizens). There are single issue political parties that advocate that, but the big players have moved on.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 8:24:36 GMT
Next week the royal college of nursing are holding a ballot for strike action. This is the first time in nearly one hundred years and the very first time since it was founded in 1916 that the leadership has recommended taking strike action.
Nurses are notoriously difficult to get to take any form of action and ballots routinely fall far below the numbers required by the anti union legislation of the Tories.But this has to be the most likely occasion where the majority of their half a million members vote in favour.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 8:26:34 GMT
jib How kind of you! If there's ever a federal European union would be happy to see it. Would settle for the real one for now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 8:27:32 GMT
You are domjg and I claim my 10 euros. colin , not quite sure what you mean by that. However, together with a couple of my friends, you are people who confirm that I am not totally biased in my thoughts re the Tory party. They have both come out recently saying that they couldn't vote Tory now and a number of your posts in the past month or so have almost suggested that you would consider voting Lab. Your opinion that "the UK electorate is so thick that there is no hope left for the country." if they support the Conservative Party is one frequently expressed by domjg. I think it is a rather arrogant sentiment. There will always be very many people in the electorate who do not share ones own preference from time to time. For those not absolutely committed to a particular Party this is a judgement about all the options on offer.
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Post by bedknobsandboomstick on Aug 9, 2022 8:30:14 GMT
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Post by moby on Aug 9, 2022 8:57:10 GMT
Anent Angela Rayner in Edinburgh
www.thenational.scot/news/20609595.angela-rayner-scottish-independence-not-nice-means-perpetual-tory-rule/?ref=twtrec
Obvious points - I wasn't there, and this is a report in a pro-indy newspaper, so I recognise that there is a possibility of selective quotation, but UK Unionist media - neither the Herald (the National's stablemate), nor BBC nor STV have covered the story, so no alternative report seems to be available. Politicians usually want their comments to be widely distributed, but the apparent lack of this may be to her advantage.
Assuming that the quotations are accurate, they do appear to demonstrate a remarkably high level of political ineptitude. What was the target audience for her remarks?
If to the "politically British" voters in Scotland, then they already prioritise the Westminster Parliament but most do so because they think that is to Scotland's benefit. Only a minority prioritise a Labour Government there, and probably few because they want to protect English voters from themselves.
Her message seems more likely to alienate those who prioritise what they see as being in Scotland's best interests. Whether people see that as being best served by Scotland by being in or out of the UK doesn't greatly matter in this context. Many UK Unionists here are primarily concerned with what they believe serves our interests, rather than some altruistic concern for the people in the wider UK.
Perhaps she was sending a message to potential Labour voters in England? Deny Scots democracy to save us from English democracy? That would be a really inept line to take - "England will always vote in a Tory majority, and Labour will never form a government based on English votes again."
I know that some on here rate her highly, but maybe she isn't a very good politician? Perhaps she was appealing to those of us who believe too much time is spent driving a wedge or accentuating the difference between what is in Britains best interests and what is in Scotlands best interests. Nationalism can be so trivial.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 9:32:06 GMT
JiB: "The referendum circus is packed up and gone away. There's still a few unemployed clowns on street corners and shouts for "encore". No."Then I guess the alternative is the long, slow grind of brexit playing out until the effect is indisputable. If, as all the signs seem to show, that end point is of a poorer, more marginal, more divided country beset by social problems and unrest, the decade or more spent reaching that point will be worse than wasted. If, against all indicators, there is no real decline, then tickety-boo: all we will have lost is the possible better future as an EU member. The question, it seems to me, is whether it's better to bail out of a doomed enterprise when you see the way the wind is blowing and there's still something to be salvaged, or to stick with it to the bitter end, Stalingrad style. Of course, brexiteers may respond to that analogy that it is the EU that is the doomed enterprise, and before long we'll see Ukraine switching from pinning its hopes on EU membership to begging to join the UK. But jib has said “no” - so surely we can do nothing now?
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Post by bardin1 on Aug 9, 2022 10:02:48 GMT
Perhaps she was appealing to those of us who believe too much time is spent driving a wedge or accentuating the difference between what is in Britains best interests and what is in Scotlands best interests. Nationalism can be so trivial. Too much of whose time? Personally I believe too much time is spent talking up the benefits of the union and the dangers of independence
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 9, 2022 10:11:35 GMT
We probably can't yet eradicate covid, at least, not until we develop neutralizing nasal spray vaccines, which are now looking quite close to realisation. However, they too will suffer the problem of mutations overcoming their effectiveness, which really is the problem with the existing vaccines. Especially if it seems covid can also reside in the gut, where its going to bypass those nasal antibodies. You mean, more like the way our natural immune system devises its antibody strategy? Which was criticised by vaccine manufacturers for NOT concentrating on the spike? And the reason the spike is rapidly mutating is precisely because thats where the vaccine immunity is concentrated. Attack it differently, and suddenly it will be mutating rapidly elsewhere too. I'm sorry, but surely you already answered that in the first part? You said the virus mutates rapidly. Thats part of its success strategy. However a long time ago now I argued that it is to our benefit to get repeat infections, and it is an established fact that our circulating antibody levels fall away in a few months. So duh, its no surprise at all people get reinfections. all of this relies upon our immune systems, and they are designed to switch off after a few months. Albeit they retain a stored pattern to fast track new antibody production if that same pathogen comes round again. However, its really not in our interest to keep it out until it can accummulate lots of mutations. Thats why new diseases are dangerous, because they have many changees we are not used to - since the last time we experienced them in history. Yes, these things are as old an animal life itself, and have been spreading and mutating back and forth as we have too. Its a dance we play, where we allow them to live amongst us because thats how we stay safe from severe illness. This isnt like smallpox, which is a pretty stable pathogen. Thats how we managed to eradicate it, because it cannot change. Notice how we have failed to eradicate the common cold despite starting to try in the 60s? Some caused by corona viruses too...heard of them? If we werent able to do this in 2019, then we cannot now. And it is very likely dangerous to try. Oh pull the other one mate! Even in the midst of lockdown with massive public cooperation we could not prevent spread of covid. Any new strain spread rapidly through the population despite everything we did, even when vaccines were brand new and just applied so probably most effective. It is not going to be possible to prevent repeated reintroduction, and so elimination requires eradication, as you are defining them. Sorry you are unable to see past the political propaganda consensus. Hastings had covid in 2019 before it was supposed to exist. That means there was no need to intervene anywhere (ok, maybe in old people's homes) , the entire epidemic would have been self limiting. Not accepting this simple logical chain is what has caused this massive over reaction to covid. Our government, albeit aided and abetted by the loyal opposition, has imposed upon this country the greatest expenditure of national wealth for no benefit probably of all time. (guess its not so bad as when scotland went broke over the Darien scheme, which then obliged them to sell their country to England. But early days yet, we may have to beg the EU to allow us back in and pay them for the privilege just as Heath did).
Its very very likely that when SAGE offered its initial advice it was unaware that Hastings had already survived an outbreak of covid without any interventions. Thats because testing and identification of covid was so awful. However by now, those same experts must be aware of what really happened. To make an honest mistake is understandable. To suppress the truth once it becomes apparent in hindsight is unforgiveable.
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Post by alec on Aug 9, 2022 11:09:11 GMT
@danny - "I'm sorry, but surely you already answered that in the first part? You said the virus mutates rapidly."
Just displaying your ignorance there. Even without the effect of variants, covid immunity (from vaccine or infection) is short lived.
"Hastings had covid in 2019 before it was supposed to exist."
And again here. I don't think you have the remotest idea just how much surveillance and back testing there has been with covid, and how much detailed knowledge we have available about when and where this first appeared. You persist with this nonsensical fairy tale, without being able to provide a shred of data, and on the other side, there is a tonne of hard, physical data which proves you wrong.
I suspect you are doing this for humorous effect, because it clearly isn't serious analysis.
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Post by hireton on Aug 9, 2022 11:12:40 GMT
moby"Perhaps she was appealing to those of us who believe too much time is spent driving a wedge or accentuating the difference between what is in Britains best interests and what is in Scotlands best interests. Nationalism can be so trivial." Well, it can be. We can see that, for example, with British nationalists seeking the return of imperial measurements etc. For me Scottish independence is about Scotland having the agency to elect and hold to account its own government, decide what sovereignty it shares with other countries and international organisations such as the EU and decide what policies it pursues on major issues such as foreign affairs, trade, defence, immigration, employment rights energy, broadcasting, and so on. I don't consider any of that trivial. I know you hold out the prospect of a kinder, gentler government under Westminster Labour and for crossbat11 this will spell the doom of the SNP and the cause of independence. A few points on that: 1. the power to achieve that rests with voters in England so Scotland just has to wait to see what they decide. 2. this gives no permanent fix for the constitutional settlement and it is clear that the Westminster system of parliamentary sovereignty is both unreformable and the checkss which exist within it are under attack from the right wing. 3. I don't see any particular reason why Labour or the Lib Dems willl be more tolerant or supportive of devolution.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 11:24:22 GMT
The truss bot on display today Cut green levy Cut taxes Keep more money " But this will overwhelmingly favour the richest" Cut green levy Cut taxes Keep more money Beep,Beep,Beep
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Post by Mark on Aug 9, 2022 11:32:56 GMT
Dave While in principle I agree with that in respect of the Brexit referendum even if no one had changed their minds ( and there's plenty of evidence of bregretters) the demographics of the vote would imply that there would now be a significant remain majority as such a high percentage of brexitanians were old and have now died this will only get more apparent over time. In general we only leave 5 years between general elections it's difficult to argue with such a narrow margin in the first place and such an age range in voting that much over ten years would actually be remotely representative of current opinion. Over six years have already passed. I'm somewhere between you and Dave. I speak as a remainer who wants to rejoin. I think it is too soon for a rejoin referendum as a lot of people - on both sides - haven't changed their minds. Brexit is still a running sore that defines much of our politics. The tory leadership election is surely proof of this. While I think that if there was a second referendum now, remain/rejoin would win, largely through demographic changes, it would still be close, allowing leavers, with some justification, to cry "stitch up". That said, I do think that the LibDems and Greens adopting a more rejoin position is a good thing - and by the same token I'm bitterly disappointed that Starmer has ruled out rejoinging the single market/customs union - as it shifts the overton window and gives strength of argument to those of us that want to rejoin.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 9, 2022 11:50:23 GMT
"Hastings had covid in 2019 before it was supposed to exist." And again here. I don't think you have the remotest idea just how much surveillance and back testing there has been with covid, and how much detailed knowledge we have available about when and where this first appeared. You persist with this nonsensical fairy tale, without being able to provide a shred of data, and on the other side, there is a tonne of hard, physical data which proves you wrong. You must have missed my list. 1) I personally had a covid like disease in late 2019. I caught it from my partner, who caught it from his workplace of some 400 people. He caught it directly from a person who had just arrived back from Wuhan in China, with a cold. At the time I thought it the worst flu I had even had, and one morning found I could taste absolutely nothing- covids signature symptom, loss of taste and smell. Others have reported similar, go ask around.
2) In April when most of the rest of the country caught covid, Hastings did not. the hospital had wards set aside which remained empty. Something prevented an outbreak of covid in spring 2020 in Hastings. It wasnt because it was not here, beause there were some cases. it wasnt because hastings people are especially careful, because when the kent variant arrived it went through hastings just as quick as anywhere else. Something protected hastings from spring covid, and the very obvious explanation is because it had already passed through the town during the winter. This is a recognised method for finding the source of an epidemic, find places which apparently had no cases - they simply had it before anyone started counting. After Kent strain arrived, hastings behaved much the same as any other part of the country as new waves arrived. Something unique happened that winter/spring 3)Hastings isnt the only place with very low early counts, theres a couple of others suggesting early entry points to the Uk happened there. One in North Devon, which would account why the SW also had very low counts during that spring summer. Covid has been identifed in autumn 2019 in other countries retrospectively, it began spreading around the world well before China noticed its existence. this has always been a signature of its spread- it becomes established before anyone notices.
3)Timing of this is all consistent with covid spreading from the relatively isolated by countryside conurbation of Hastings and bexhill through commuters and shoppers travelling to London. Where it would have been just in time to cause the outbreaks which took place there early, with schools experiencing their worst ever absence rates. Before they were closed, of course, but that was closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. However this spread by tavellers would have created a very dispersed pattern of new infections in London, so no concentrations of illness at the start. 3a) When schools reopened, there was clear evidence of a wave of covid moving from south to north across England, because the spring epidemic flared up again in northern schools. Schools closed before general lockdown and had probably the most isolated group of people, the kids. So when they reopened, it restarted specifically in schools but didnt spread nearly so well to broader communities. This was clear evidence of established immunity amongst kids in the south, whose parents would have had covid by then too. Most everyone probably had it, but very few would have been tested. The biggest wave of covid was probably spring 2020, not as the official numbers would have it spring 2022. Not forgetting that antibody testing of stored blood indicated significant immunity to covid in 2019, which was attributed to cross immunity caused by exposure to other related corona viruses (its called vaccination, the traditional way). The irony is, we had a lot of immunity to the original strain mitigating its effects. probably lockdown made the situtaion re immunity worse not better, because it prevented the natural process of infection while covid was still at its weakest.
4)Covid always affects the young more frequently but the old most severely. This pattern was seen in the london schools, and in hastings. Back where this began. The oldest were most ill with that mystery disease. The youngest least. A couple of elderly relatives of those at what might have been an index site of infection were actually hospitalised, and one died officially from pneumonia of unknown cause. So it wasnt flu, or any other known disease. There was a wave of pneumonia deaths in local old peoples homes -as you would expect- but not many as to cause alarm.
5) this pattern of spread and death always means the alarm signal causing concern because of deaths comes late in an outbreak. The young do not die. Working age people dont die, maybe a few of the oldest. Its pneumonia. The flu monitoring service was expressly set up to ignore occasional outbreaks of unidentified illnesses, so no one was searching for a new disease. Doctors see flu all the time, and patients dont even bother going to them. No one got alarmed in the early stages of covid, but in fact it came and went in the relatively small 100-150,000 urban area around hastings. Not big enough to cause a noticeable number of deaths.
6) In outbreaks around the ountry at different times it was first concluded that local measures were incapable of slowing covid. Once we moved to national measures, then some areas were out of step with imposing and releasing lockdowns because they were timed for the whole nation. So careful analysis of starting points of each wave showed cases rose and then started falling all by themselves before measures were imposed. Again it was shown to be self limiting.
7)Deaths stats are terrible and have failed to differentiate deaths from covid to those with covid. We dont really have a fair count of additionl deaths caused by covid. Excess deaths is a problem too, because it is likely lockdown sped up deaths from some other diseases which didnt get treated. So we need to differentiate deths caused by lockdown to those caused by covid.
8)Although officials now claim the epidemic has been reduced to a level where it is manageable without interventions, actually theres wuite a few ongoing claimed deaths. Its just they are now steady day by day instead of coming in pike spikes and dips. So the actual reduction is not at all as good as the headline. Dea5hs from covid are now going to be unavoidable. But never have they ever approached the alarmist 'worst case' estimates from SAGE, which were used to justify lockdown. Has SAGE been told in advance how few would die in reality, I rather expect their advice would have been very different. This whole thing as based upon inadequate information and then worst case gusses, which were simply wrong. Lockdown and its huge financial cost has never been justified by outcomes.
That'll have to do for now. But theres plenty of tips in there where you can go and check against national figures for yourself.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 9, 2022 12:02:15 GMT
Taken from Wiki:
"Realpolitik refers to enacting or engaging in diplomatic or political policies based primarily on considerations of given circumstances and factors" .
Taken from The Guardian 4th July 2022
The current deal had “created a hulking fatberg of red tape and bureaucracy, one that is hampering the flow of British business”, Starmer said. “We will break that barrier down, unclog the arteries of our economy and allow trade to flourish once more.” However, he stressed that that any debate on rejoining the EU would be to “look back over our shoulder” and jeopardise public faith in politics, adding: “So let me be very clear: with Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union.”
Ben Bradshaw, the Exeter MP and former minister who is a leading pro-EU voice in the Labour party, said Starmer’s approach was “absolutely right”. He said: “There is no prospect of us rejoining the EU, single market or customs union anytime soon, not least because [Boris] Johnson has so completely destroyed trust with our European neighbours that any such move would be on far worse terms than those we had before we left.
“There is, however, plenty that we can do to reduce the enormous damage being done to our economy and our relationship with our allies, by fixing the many problems with Johnson’s botched Brexit deal.”
This energy-sapping, soul-destroying endless debate, not least on here, has gone on for six long years. I think Starmer is absolutely right to seek to ameliorate the damage caused by the Tories hard Brexit. That's Labour's short-term goal as part of their strategy to salvage the economy and resolve the cost of living crisis.
Where will we be in 10 years time? Who knows
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Post by moby on Aug 9, 2022 12:14:29 GMT
moby"Perhaps she was appealing to those of us who believe too much time is spent driving a wedge or accentuating the difference between what is in Britains best interests and what is in Scotlands best interests. Nationalism can be so trivial." Well, it can be. We can see that, for example, with British nationalists seeking the return of imperial measurements etc. For me Scottish independence is about Scotland having the agency to elect and hold to account its own government, decide what sovereignty it shares with other countries and international organisations such as the EU and decide what policies it pursues on major issues such as foreign affairs, trade, defence, immigration, employment rights energy, broadcasting, and so on. I don't consider any of that trivial. I know you hold out the prospect of a kinder, gentler government under Westminster Labour and for crossbat11 this will spell the doom of the SNP and the cause of independence. A few points on that: 1. the power to achieve that rests with voters in England so Scotland just has to wait to see what they decide. 2. this gives no permanent fix for the constitutional settlement and it is clear that the Westminster system of parliamentary sovereignty is both unreformable and the checkss which exist within it are under attack from the right wing. 3. I don't see any particular reason why Labour or the Lib Dems willl be more tolerant or supportive of devolution. Thanks hireton for the umpteenth time. I have absolutely no interest in the return of imperial measurements and am not a nationalist so don't really see any value in differentiating between voters in England and Scotland. I refer you to my original point.
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Post by jayblanc on Aug 9, 2022 12:38:41 GMT
A reminder for people saying that it's unfair to blame the Conservatives for the Gas price inflation shock... www.ft.com/content/564a1ec0-8288-11e7-a4ce-15b2513cb3ffShortly after Brexit, when we knew we could no longer participate in EU Gas storage pooling, the UK Government allowed closing of storage sites
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 13:12:08 GMT
ladyvalerie “There is, however, plenty that we can do to reduce the enormous damage being done to our economy and our relationship with our allies, by fixing the many problems with Johnson’s botched Brexit deal.” The problem with this approach is that everyone with a functional brain cell knows that the best way to mitigate the damage is to seek single market arrangements, this doesn't actually require trust by the European union just compliance with the terms agreed by the U.K. If a future Tory regime renege on it then they will be culpable of yet more self inflicted damage, but that isn't a reason not to do it. Ruling it out makes Labour complicit in the continuing damage.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 9, 2022 13:33:19 GMT
ladyvalerie “There is, however, plenty that we can do to reduce the enormous damage being done to our economy and our relationship with our allies, by fixing the many problems with Johnson’s botched Brexit deal.” The problem with this approach is that everyone with a functional brain cell knows that the best way to mitigate the damage is to seek single market arrangements, this doesn't actually require trust by the European union just compliance with the terms agreed by the U.K. If a future Tory regime renege on it then they will be culpable of yet more self inflicted damage, but that isn't a reason not to do it. Ruling it out makes Labour complicit in the continuing damage. I do have a few functioning brain cells. What’s with the ad hominem attack? I’m entitled to express my opinion.
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Post by chrisaberavon on Aug 9, 2022 13:52:19 GMT
Good afternoon all Lovely day here, does not feel like a crisis-hit town at the moment on the beaches. Did anyone catch the Radio 4 programme with Jonathan Freedland this morning after the end of The Today Prog? It was half an hour of excellent history with Ann Perkins on Ramsay Mac, and then a Professor of History (Nottingham, I think).
The theme was the Labour Party. and the trade unions, looking at how Macdonald tried to deal with the 1926 Strike and Neil Kinnock's difficulties with the 1984-1985 Coal Strke. (freedlan's father lived in sunny Bournemouth and Stephen Kinnock is MP for Aberavon, which will probably remain Labour even if the poll (voodoo?) showing Truss ahead of Starmer as best PM remains accurate.
Glanced at my old copy of 'Nineteen eighty four' in the small hours; a book which meant that Orwell was cancelled by friends such as the editor of the New Statesman has that phrase 'non word' alongside 'thought crime'. Richard Burton (was called Jenkins before being adopted by his English teacher here in Aberavon) zooms in on Hurt's Winston for a 'non -word' in an article in The Times has a modern feel to it after a party rally.
Lady Valerie: hello and please keep going. Ad homniem or ad mueliam attacks are not good.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 9, 2022 13:56:56 GMT
Lv Sorry if you thought it was directed at you it wasn't the quote was from Bradshaw who is fully well aware that the enormous damage can't be addressed by tinkering with the current nonsense but doesn't think he can undermine the current leadership denialism.
Meanwhile
More boosterist bollocks from cosplay Maggie "Truss accuses Sunak of being ‘declinist’ and of spreading ‘portents of doom’"
Just what we need another muppet who thinks you can polish a turd if you believe hard enough in its shinyness
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Post by alec on Aug 9, 2022 14:35:14 GMT
@danny - " I personally had a covid like disease in late 2019. I caught it from my partner, who caught it from his workplace of some 400 people. He caught it directly from a person who had just arrived back from Wuhan in China, with a cold. At the time I thought it the worst flu I had even had, and one morning found I could taste absolutely nothing- covids signature symptom, loss of taste and smell. Others have reported similar, go ask around." Well doh!!! You are probably correct - you likely did have a covid like disease in late 2019, because......there was a covid like disease that was circulating at that time. As has been explained to you many, many time already Danny. Once again, with feeling, there was a notably potent coronavirus circulating in autumn and winter 2019/202 which infected a lot of people. It was notable because it had many 'flu like symptoms, was severe, for a coronavirus, with sufferers reporting things like loss of smell etc. Follow this link and look at Table 2, which gives you a flavour of what I trying to get you to understand - www.gov.uk/government/publications/respiratory-infections-laboratory-reports-2019/reports-of-respiratory-infections-made-to-phe-from-phe-and-nhs-laboratories-in-england-and-wales-weeks-44-to-48-2019. In particular, look at the line that says "Coronavirus". This was not covid, but it was a coronavirus. That's what you had, that's what people in Hastings had, and that's all there is to it. Others have flagged up to you the covid deaths data from Hastings which blows your daft theory out of the water, so I'm not repeating those facts here, but I hope you can now appreciate that your entire thesis on this is based on one huge flawed starting premise.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2022 14:50:33 GMT
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Post by moby on Aug 9, 2022 15:08:43 GMT
Ormerod could have just written "All politicians end in failure" and saved me the time. The next article about middle aged women not wanting sex was far more interesting.
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