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Post by mandolinist on Aug 8, 2022 9:37:38 GMT
crossbat11 That is an interesting response, I am not sure I know anyone who holds the whole suite of views that were expressed there. I don't mix as much as I used to, but have a large social, musical, gardening and wildlife interests circles, I have friends and family who voted for Brexit whilst I voted remain, I know some Tories, I even know some people well who are very active in the pro-hunting organisations. Nonetheless, the people described really aren't people that I am familiar with. I must try to get out more.
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Post by hireton on Aug 8, 2022 9:51:52 GMT
It looks like the reinterpretation to correct the misinterpretation of the Truss policy on handouts is a misinterpretation of the comment:
I'm surprised there isn't more comment thst after the Sunak rise in the NI threshold that reversing the NI rate rise benefits the highest earners most:
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2022 9:53:39 GMT
![](//storage.proboards.com/7248232/thumbnailer/xL0MclWjPEmwwbTsPyDm.png) For those of a certain age.
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Aug 8, 2022 9:58:53 GMT
crossbat11 That is an interesting response, I am not sure I know anyone who holds the whole suite of views that were expressed there. I don't mix as much as I used to, but have a large social, musical, gardening and wildlife interests circles, I have friends and family who voted for Brexit whilst I voted remain, I know some Tories, I even know some people well who are very active in the pro-hunting organisations. Nonetheless, the people described really aren't people that I am familiar with. I must try to get out more. I remember collecting our youngest from school the day after the brexit referendum and his teacher told me she couldn't believe it as she didn't know a single person she could imagine voting for it. That was when I realised how easy it is now to silo oneself from different opinions. And also why I value this board so highly. Even though I find myself increasingly in agreement with colin on some things, twas not ever thus, yet I've always been able to imagine sitting down and having an amicable conversation. I disagree fundamentally with (a sadly decreasing number) of others, but it's a place which serves as a useful reminder that other opinions exist without resorting to the mail or telegraph or BBC news.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 8, 2022 9:58:58 GMT
crossbat11 That is an interesting response, I am not sure I know anyone who holds the whole suite of views that were expressed there. I don't mix as much as I used to, but have a large social, musical, gardening and wildlife interests circles, I have friends and family who voted for Brexit whilst I voted remain, I know some Tories, I even know some people well who are very active in the pro-hunting organisations. Nonetheless, the people described really aren't people that I am familiar with. I must try to get out more. Assuming your partner relayed the views he heard accurately, then maybe the whole suite is a bit exceptional, but there are probably rather more such people than we'd like to believe. We've imported a lot of Tea Party Republicanism into centre right politics over here and while they've become more mainstream in the US than in this country, plenty of people adhere to conspiratorial poppycock theories about world events. The way to deal with it, I think, is to engage with the views and debunk those and not the people who hold them.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 8, 2022 10:01:46 GMT
It looks like the reinterpretation to correct the misinterpretation of the Truss policy on handouts is a misinterpretation of the comment: I'm surprised there isn't more comment thst after the Sunak rise in the NI threshold that reversing the NI rate rise benefits the highest earners most: You can see why Truss wants tax cuts rather than 'handouts' targeted at those most in need
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Post by laszlo4new on Aug 8, 2022 10:22:08 GMT
The double curse of my life After listening to Orbán's speech, an American friend sent message to me: "You can keep Orbán". A bit later she sent another message: "You can keep Farage as well".
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 8, 2022 10:32:30 GMT
The double curse of my life After listening to Orbán's speech, an American friend sent message to me: "You can keep Orbán". A bit later she sent another message: "You can keep Farage as well". I hope you replied, "You can keep Trump too!"
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 8, 2022 10:55:05 GMT
Meanwhile, on to far more epoch changing world events; the demise of the BBC's long running Saturday five o'clock Sports Report radio programme. Even more devastatingly, the end of the reading of the classified football results. If missed at the five o'clock opening, I loved the quasi-religious "second reading" at the end of the programme. www.theguardian.com/football/2022/aug/08/bbc-ditches-classified-football-results-on-radio-5-liveSo many daft memories of this old staple programme going back to childhood. Family holidays in Europe scaling Alpine foothills to try and get a crackling reception so we could find out how the Villa had got on. This often failed and we had to wait three days for the Sunday papers. Rushing back to the car too after watching a game so we could get the results of all the other games. It was compulsive listening wherever I was. Sad to see it go. A winter ritual no more. That said, spread out kick off times on a weekend and the multiplicity of live score outlets have probably made it an obsolete affair. I used to love the Sports Report theme tune too. Here it is (link below), maybe for one last time. It's absence will be missed by this old football nut. Especially the doom laden words, "The Classified Football Results: The Premier League. Aston Villa 0..........." The next words were the dreaded ones, often uttered agonisingly slowly too. Farewell to a beloved old programme, a virtual lifetime soundtrack of my Saturday early evenings. www.google.com/search?q=sports+report+theme+tune&sxsrf=ALiCzsb0gNUlYzVH7Ra2mvXqTJKz64DotA%3A1659955795948&source=hp&ei=U-rwYpT-NoOXgQaK1oGoDg&oq=sports+report+theme+tune&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABOgcIIxDqAhAnOgcILhDqAhAnOg0ILhDHARDRAxDqAhAnOgQILhAnOgQIIxAnOhAILhCxAxCDARDHARDRAxBDOgQILhBDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CggAELEDEIMBEEM6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoKCAAQgAQQhwIQFDoICAAQgAQQsQM6BggAEB4QFjoJCAAQHhDJAxAWUMMNWJ9QYJteaABwAHgAgAHyAogB9COSAQgwLjE4LjUuMpgBAKABAbABDw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:76ba5615,vid:gv_idtcK1-E,st:0
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Post by chrisaberavon on Aug 8, 2022 11:15:20 GMT
CROSSBAT11 Hello to, such sad news about the loss of the 'Classified Football Results. Coming home from Crystal Palace Games in the sixties, it was indeed quasi religious to have to be silent in the car and then get the results, combined with the Second Reading; the rising tone of the score reading indicating an away win or loss. I go back to Eamonn Andrews. Over on BBC TV we had Coleman on the ticker tape with half time and full time scores. By the way www.dailymotion.com/video/xiyqne has a documentary on the 1976 West Indies tour; the one in which the English Captain (Tony Greig) vowed to make the west indian players 'Grovel' At the Oval that year every six hit by the west indian batsmen was greeted by the crowd with the shout: 'Grovel' Fantastic summer with 'Jim' in power but he could not persuade the trade unions and the 'Left' in the PLP to support the strategy in order to avoid a Thatcherite solution. On the matter of political identity, it seems to me anyway that the voters of England drifted to the 'right' from 1967 onwards. Hence the very narrow victories for Wilson in 1974 and the acceptance of New Labour by 'the party' in 1995. Liz Truss knows that most voters will welcome lower taxes, will not welcome Labour promising to reverse them if they do and will not welcome Starmer's indecisions about lots of issues.
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Post by lefthanging on Aug 8, 2022 11:59:11 GMT
On the matter of political identity, it seems to me anyway that the voters of England drifted to the 'right' from 1967 onwards. Hence the very narrow victories for Wilson in 1974 and the acceptance of New Labour by 'the party' in 1995. Liz Truss knows that most voters will welcome lower taxes, will not welcome Labour promising to reverse them if they do and will not welcome Starmer's indecisions about lots of issues. The indecision is the killer I think. Most voters already assume Labour will put up tax - the question is by how much. Setting out some detail is necessary otherwise many will just assume the worst. Moreover, opposing proposed tax cuts, but not committing to reverse them in office, risks looking duplicitous, inconsistent and weak.
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Post by hireton on Aug 8, 2022 12:03:14 GMT
Apparently this is not a parody:
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Post by alec on Aug 8, 2022 12:11:31 GMT
mandolinist - "My partner went to a local glazing and glass cutting outfit recently, whilst waiting in the queue of two, the owner and the other customer had a wide ranging conversation. They agreed that they did not believe the war in Ukraine was real, that climate change was a conspiracy, that "Boris" was a top bloke, when the phrase "and as for monkey pox" was uttered, he turned and left the shop. We may need a bathroom mirror quite a lot, but really not enough to shop there." While we do think we get isolated into separate mental silos, I'm less sure. I saw a recent study of online interactions that was looking at the reasons why people get so angry, and they concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that it was actually due to the fact that we have greater engagement with those whose views we totally disagree with than we ever did before the internet. However, there is another aspect to your partners experience that I would posit, and that is that in this country in particular, but I'm sure elsewhere too, we have a tendency to refrain from disagreeing with strangers and distant acquaintances when we have those brief interactions. So, for example, many of us are reluctant to tell a member of service staff at a restaurant what we really think when they ask 'is everything OK?'. Instead of saying, 'well my partners main course is cold, the music is too loud, and your prices are not good value for money', we might just nod and say 'yes, fine thanks', and never go back. I think this often applies to the kind of interaction you describe. I'd wager a fair amount that one of the two involved, if asked by another person about how terrible the Russian invasion of Ukraine was and how those poor Ukrainian children were dying etc etc, would agree and say something about how unpleasant Putin was. If people hear someone saying something they don't agree with, especially in the political arena, they rarely challenge it and lay down their own beliefs, because that isn't how 90 second one-off social interactions tend to work. In the last few months I've had two experiences which lead me to this way of thinking, one on UK politics and one on covid. I won't describe the first, as the pattern was very similar, but on the covid one I was in a queue in a shop, masked, and the person in front of me (he hadn't seen me) was talking to the shopkeeper about covid, fuss over nothing, need to live with it, just a cold, etc etc. The shopkeeper was nodding general agreement, conciliatory expressions, but obviously a bit uncomfortable, possibly due to the fact that she could see me in my mask. So I just did what I never normally do, and butted in, quite loudly, and simply said "No I'm sorry, that's total bollocks". The guy turned round to look at me, the shopkeeper looked quite concerned, like there was going to be a fight, but I launched into a thirty second statement of facts, starting with "my wife's a doctor" (technically true, but not that kind of doctor) then citing the fact that over a thousand people had died of covid in the previous week, X thousand people were being admitted to hospital each day, the NHS had collapsed because X% of staff are off sick with covid, Xm people currently have long covid, and we might get a new variant tomorrow that makes the vaccines useless, and with X% of population currently infected the chances of new variants are very high indeed.
The long and short of this is that while I stayed very calm and factual, I was incredibly pissed off and angry that I had to stand and listen to such bullshit, after all my wife and I have been going through with this, and I had snapped. Had the guy had a go at me I'd have probably got stuck in myself, so pissed off was I. However, he basically said to the effect that he didn't know that, it sounds really bad, why aren't 'they' doing something about it, etc etc, and in the end we all agreed covid was a shitshow, the government was terrible and 'something should be done'.
Now I don't actually believe for a minute that I convinced him of all of that in 30 seconds, but then nor do I actually think he believed what he was saying in the first place. He just wanted a bit of a moan, said a few things that he probably half believed in but had he been talking to a work colleague or close friend who he knew might challenge him would probably never have said. When I said he was talking bollocks, he didn't want to disagree. And that, I think, sums up a fair bit of our in person interactions on controversial topics. We like to maintain an agreed view, and if one individual takes the lead, the others will follow, whether or not they actually agree, because disagreeing means conflict and most of us don't want that.
So whether you partner witnessed two conspiracy nut jobs discussing a fantasy world together is an open question. I suspect it's a lot more likely that one of them was think the other is a crank, and had your partner said 'that's a load of bollocks' you might all have ended up agreeing to something completely different.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 12:18:56 GMT
Apparently this is not a parody:
Holy moly. This makes William Hague's baseball cap look inspired.
Is he trying to sabotage his own campaign? Does he care not one jot about his reputation (what's left of it)?
How many Tory members have Twitter anyway, or even know what it is? My guess is 6%.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2022 12:19:02 GMT
" let's keep Brexit safe"
Safe from what?
Reality? Honesty? Sanity?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 8, 2022 12:44:31 GMT
Latest yougov
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Post by laszlo4new on Aug 8, 2022 12:46:01 GMT
Apparently this is not a parody: Well, if this is the type of shredding machine that the government is using, the spies would have a field day. If it is only the Conservative Party - well, everyone has a chance.
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Post by Mark on Aug 8, 2022 12:52:54 GMT
mandolinist I agree with some of your observations but I think this idea the people live in social bubbles that exclude people who have different views about politics and life, is a strange concept to me..... Understanding how millions of our fellow citizens think, and more importantly why they they think that way, is a fundamental part of winning political arguments and elections, whether you're a centrist or on the left. Having friends with different plitical views is fine. I myself have friends that vote tory, which may come as a surprise to some. What Mandolinist is describing, though, is pure wacko Jacko...we're in Seventh Day Advent Hoppists territory. (For those unfamiliar, this will help : reddwarf.fandom.com/wiki/Seventh_Day_Advent_Hoppists ) All there is to understand is that the people she is describing have been seriously duped - and dangerously so.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 8, 2022 13:35:47 GMT
Poll tracker
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jayblanc
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Post by jayblanc on Aug 8, 2022 13:48:42 GMT
The US looks set to introduce an effective minimum rate on corporation tax, so that profitable companies can no longer use write-offs to reduce their corporation tax to 0%. A 15% minimum rate after write-offs has passed the Senate, and waiting for the House to approve it. (Which is likely to happen.)
It would be great is the UK followed suit, but neither Truss or Sunak seem likely to propose it. Despite it being a clear way to ensure that profit making companies can't keep finding loopholes to get out of paying a fair share of taxes, and way of funding cost-of-living support.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 8, 2022 13:55:53 GMT
View AttachmentI suspect that Truss has already had her honeymoon period before the voting has finished. Events are already in place and her plans , what there are of them won't make any difference to the economic crisis facing millions. Of course holiday boy Spaffer and the invisible chancellor have decided that they deserve a well earned break from inept government and consequently while the other muppets are engaged in a beauty( yuk) pageant nothing happens. The country needs better than these passed their sell by date snake oil chancers. Now, don’t forget, Steve. The vacuum that exists at the heart of our Government, while we encounter the shock-waves of the coming economic crisis, is all Starmer’s fault. As LOTO, it’s up to him to provide a detailed plan. You can’t expect government ministers to undertake this work. They are fully occupied with holidays or electioneering.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 8, 2022 14:04:02 GMT
When the last YouGov came out showing a 1% lead and some people looked to rationalise it in terms of events, I said wait for the next one, it will show a swing back the other way and it duly has. YouGov do this all the time. Is it something in their sample or their methodology? Not many companies show such poll on poll volatility.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 8, 2022 14:08:45 GMT
Which political editor of what newspaper wrote this today?
"While the Stupid Party is busy rearranging the deckchairs, SS Great Britain is steaming headlong towards the biggest crash since the Great Depression of 1929. This is not just a cost-of-living crisis. It is a national economic emergency. We are on the brink of a full-blown calamity of wartime proportions, with soaring bankruptcies and unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Belt-tightening won’t cut it. This country cannot wait four more weeks for the Tories to decide who might lead us through it. Without what Churchill called “Action This Day”, millions of hardworking families – (missing words) – face hunger and destitution for the first time in living memory."
Answer - the missing words are "including Sun readers" and it was Trevor Kavanagh, not known for his left wing views.
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Post by shevii on Aug 8, 2022 14:09:12 GMT
mandolinist I agree with some of your observations but I think this idea the people live in social bubbles that exclude people who have different views about politics and life, is a strange concept to me. Maybe some people do but, if so, it's a shrivelled existence. Why would you choose friends on the basis of their political views unless you were particularly intolerant and/or have a very shrunken hinterland that takes you little beyond self selecting groups of people? Most of time I don't do politics with friends or relatives. The two people your partner overheard in the shop are very familiar to me. As they should be to all of us who live normal lives. They may well be ill informed or mistaken in their views but that doesn't make them bad people to be shunned and avoided. Understanding how millions of our fellow citizens think, and more importantly why they they think that way, is a fundamental part of winning political arguments and elections, whether you're a centrist or on the left. I don't think it is so much a case of deliberately making a choice of friends based on their politics as it is that common interests and common attitudes and life choices are more likely to make your friendships grow from this and in some undefinable way 99 times out of a hundred you seem to share the same sort of politics on a left/right split. Also many leisure activities might define your politics anyway if you like a certain type of music for example, although there's always exceptions as I had a Thatcher loving friend who introduced me to an anarcho punk band who were basically encouraging people to go off and smash up a McDonalds afterwards! Despite this band with very political lyrics he enjoyed the music/culture somehow. Even with something as neutral as football I've noticed a tendency (non league) for likeminded people to form their own little friendship groups which turn out to be not far off being a LOC/ROC split. It's not because the politics matter but something about their attitudes do. Maybe it's a bit of a "woke"/"anti woke" split and how you don't feel that comfortable in the other groups company? Work can also be a likeminded thing if you are in a specific profession or type of work. Even the type of pub you go to and meet people may unconsciously reflect a "political" choice.
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Post by hireton on Aug 8, 2022 14:13:05 GMT
The FM of Scotland has called for an urgent meeting of the Heads of Goverment Council to address the cost of living crisis ( for those unfamiliar with the term this was the new machinery of government to facilitate joint working announced by the UK Government several months ago which has yet to meet):
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 8, 2022 14:17:15 GMT
The FM of Scotland has called for an urgent meeting of the Heads of Goverment Council to address the cost of living crisis ( for those unfamiliar with the term this was the new machinery of government to facilitate joint working announced by the UK Government several months ago which has yet to meet): But who knows who would turn up to represent the zombie government in Westminster. Larry the cat perhaps.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 8, 2022 14:39:33 GMT
Rather than make any decisions or take any action, our Government is content to fiddle while the UK burns.
But the voters will blame Starmer for his “indecisiveness “
😀😀😀
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Post by hireton on Aug 8, 2022 14:42:31 GMT
The FM of Scotland has called for an urgent meeting of the Heads of Goverment Council to address the cost of living crisis ( for those unfamiliar with the term this was the new machinery of government to facilitate joint working announced by the UK Government several months ago which has yet to meet): But who knows who would turn up to represent the zombie government in Westminster. Larry the cat perhaps.
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Post by alec on Aug 8, 2022 14:53:53 GMT
A thread on Germany and gas shortages -
Notable, how much Germany has reduced it's consumption of gas so far this year, even in July, when the record heatwave would have greatly increased demand for electricity.
I haven't been able to access like for like monthly stats on UK gas consumption as yet, but a comparison would be interesting. While there will have been reductions in response to price rises, we have not had any government action promoting savings and efficiency. Once again, the UK approach seems to be lots of talk about things like tax cuts, allied to hoping things will be OK.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 8, 2022 15:00:42 GMT
What Mandolinist is describing, though, is pure wacko Jacko... All there is to understand is that the people she is describing have been seriously duped - and dangerously so. I think it is unquestionable that the internet has played a role in this. There have always been people with nutty views but they used to sit in corners of pubs muttering to themselves while being avoided by everyone else. The TV and press never used to give those views much of an airing. The internet has let them get together and see there are others who share their world view - indeed to amplify it and disappear even further down various rabbit holes. Because of my son's phase of Alex Jones following, alluded to previously, I have had the dubious pleasures of watching some of his stuff. The weirdest was an extended 20 minute rant on his intention to eat his neighbours in the coming apocalypse brought on by "the new world order". However, this guy has millions of followers and became highly influential in his complete denial of reality in pursuit of a far right agenda. Even if the current highly satisfactory legal disaster he is undergoing in the US over his Sandy Hook lies proves terminal (lets hope so), there are plenty of other malign nutters out there ready to replace him. www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/08/he-has-done-more-to-further-the-cause-of-hate-in-the-us-than-almost-anyone-the-rise-and-fall-of-alex-jones
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