|
Post by alec on Aug 5, 2022 16:31:54 GMT
ladyvalerie - "How can one be “effectively dead”? You’re either dead or you’re not." Think Grant Shapps.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,245
|
Post by steve on Aug 5, 2022 16:40:31 GMT
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Aug 5, 2022 16:42:43 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. I've learnt more from wb61 about the law and @lazlo4new about business methods and eastern Europe and @jimjam and others about polling and alec about all sorts of minutiae, so thank you to you and and all the rest of you knowledgeable people who help elevate our meanderings into something based on fact and knowledge. Privileged to be here.
|
|
|
Post by bardin1 on Aug 5, 2022 16:44:40 GMT
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,164
Member is Online
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 5, 2022 17:01:20 GMT
I've just thought of a genius campaign strap line for Labour and Starmer at the next election:- "Good Enough For Now." or maybe “Do you feel lucky?” “ I know what you’re thinking… …Did he break six pledges, or only five? To tell you the truth, I’ve kinda forgotten myself In all the excitement But being as I’ve been taking advice from Blair and so could easily start privatising more of the NHS, and inflating house prices even more and maybe even start a war some place like Iraq, and who knows what else, you’ve got to ask yourself a question: “Do I feel lucky?” Well do ya?”
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 5, 2022 17:02:50 GMT
sunak's admission today, claiming he was doing good by taking money from the poorest areas and giving it to leafy middle class areas rather gives the game away about how Tories think about levelling up.
Clearly, it's about places, and it's been clear for a long time now that the places that it's most about are the ones that have, or might, vote Tory. The adjustment to the way of measuring poverty to include a measurement of the distance required to travel to work and the method used to measure that, was how Sunak's own very wealthy constituency was able to qualify as poor. This was clearly gerrymandering.
For me, levelling up needs to be about people. That will obviously end up being reflected in place, to a large extent, as poor people tend to live together in poor areas, but as with debates about tax, wealth and age cohorts, we forget that in every area and every group, there are some that need help.
Leading from this, we get to welfare, which is given on the basis of individual need. Conservatives want easy, place based answers that they can gerrymander for electoral gain, as Sunak was attempting today. What we actually need is to use resources to follow the individuals in need and help them, but of course, anything to do with welfare is an anathema to Conservatives.
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 5, 2022 17:09:36 GMT
barbara - "...and alec about all sorts of minutiae...". Minister of Minutiae? Has a certain ring to it.
|
|
alurqa
Member
Freiburg im Breisgau's flag
Posts: 781
|
Post by alurqa on Aug 5, 2022 17:17:22 GMT
House prices only keep pace with the price of similar houses in similar areas. ... As for Inheritance taxes, I wonder what they are for really. On the political left there is a real resentment, it always seems to me, of wealth inequality. ... I believe that inequality of wealth is no more unusual than inequality of intellect, physique,character, and so on. ... Concepts of Equality and Inequality are what put me firmly on the ROC. I would accept an honest policy which imposed a graded annual wealth tax , calibrated to be affordable from annual income ( rather than asset sales), with the objective of raising sums significant enough to alleviate real poverty . But taxing my children and grandchildren out of envy, should I be lucky enough to hand my earned house and savings on to them ,unravished by old age care costs ?-No thanks. A few points. First house prices are, as you say, set locally. However it's not a real market, because the supply is interfered with so much. There always seems to be a supply of 'executive homes' but no more council houses. And we know this is by design, with the planning system constructed to achieve that end. Why are so many developers Tory party donors? As an aside, it is said that home ownership reduces mobility. If you genuinely want to help the economy an affordable thriving rented sector would be a good start, as you could easily move to a new job in a different area if the accommodation there was suitable. As to inequality of intellect, I'm not sure I agree. We are all human, and all have the same amazing blob between the ears. It should be the job of the state to make the most of these assets, as no one else can effectively do this. The Labour mantra of Education, Education, Education was, and remains valid. Why the hell are we not pouring money into our education system, rewarding our teachers for the amazing job they do? It just seems to be a cost to society that those who no longer use it care about. This short-sightedness is very damaging to our society. We live in a rapidly changing world, and our strength in the service sector is being ignored (and the brexit vote just shows the stupidity of this). In a rapidly changing world new skills are needed, and teachers can't just be expected to keep up with these. So the education system needs to innovate to include training of these new skills. (The Rust programming language, for instance, looks promising, but it may fail, so if it does the system needs to quickly readjust. Such changes are not easy but they must happen if we are to benefit from them as a country.) We are a very rich country. But for the country to prosper we need some mechanism of redistributing the wealth. Everyone says tax those wealthier than they are, but the reality is that in order to raise sufficient tax to make a difference you have to take something from most. Because in recent years we have a growing group of people in the poorest category -- in my view the direct result of a core tenet of capitalism, winners and losers -- these are getting hit harder than other groups. The state's role, I'd suggest, should be to assuage some of the harsher aspects of this, but we have a government whose view is any state input is bad (apart from rigging the housing market, of course).
I don't know how your comments about envy fit into my view of the world, but perhaps you have a point. There is no quick way to make a fortune except, apparently, in the housing market. (I wish the BBC and Channel 4 would can those programmes.) robbiealive 's comments about normalising taxes, so either income or dividend tax are treated the same, makes perfect sense and would probably raise quite a lot (which would naturally annoy a particular section of society). Wealth ultimately comes from businesses creating things or providing services. We should all be working to make sure this happens and capitalism is the proven way to create wealth. But it is also, at times, brutal, and we must have a corresponding mechanism to soften its harsher side to keep everyone on board and make sure it succeeds. In my view this is not lefty nonsense or letting the scroungers take advantage of the system. If nothing changes the wealth of this country will continue to reside in fewer and fewer people and a growing number of the population will fall into poverty. You blame envy. I blame the pensioners -- those no longer in employment who don't take an interest and don't care, as long as their (often unfunded) occupational pensions keep paying out, and the state pension drops in their bank account every week. They are the ones keeping the current crew in power.
Sorry, I've got carried away, so I'll stop now!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 17:27:35 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. Privileged to be here. OY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? I know stuff! *** Anyway, privileged to have you here Barbara. (*** It’s just that I’ve forgotten it.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 17:29:37 GMT
alurqa “ Sorry, I've got carried away, so I'll stop now!” That was the only bit I read - I thought it was jolly good actually.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 17:36:15 GMT
“ When asked which of the leadership candidates would be best able to end a recession, 19% of respondents chose Sunak compared to 12% who said Liz Truss. However, almost half, 46%, said “neither”.”
Amusing in a sort of ironic way. I wonder how Rosie would score?
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Aug 5, 2022 17:44:30 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. I've learnt more from wb61 about the law and @lazlo4new about business methods and eastern Europe and @jimjam and others about polling and alec about all sorts of minutiae, so thank you to you and and all the rest of you knowledgeable people who help elevate our meanderings into something based on fact and knowledge. Privileged to be here. Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara.
|
|
|
Post by robbiealive on Aug 5, 2022 17:47:52 GMT
You may have improved the house too but you are essentially the beneficiary of an overheated and malfunctioning market. Similarly with other investments that balloon in value. . Prior to retirement I was paying handsomely for that privilege , in the shape of mortgage rates which today's youngsters are about to experience ... Well, you had to live somewhere. After retirement , I have been able to use house sale proceeds from a city location to buy a larger house , for the same money, in a rural local. There is no Capital Gains Tax in UK on your home. Quite right too. So it was a good untaxed investment.As for Inheritance taxes, I wonder what they are for really. For answer, see below.I believe that inequality of wealth is no more unusual than inequality of intellect, physique,character, and so on. The left's resentment of "middle class wealth " (mentioned by someone earlier ) is pure class envy. See below.IHT is to raise money to pay for things that people need. If I had known Colin that you object to IHT on principle, & were going to give us what I am disappointed to find is the usual "LOC class-hatred-resentment", "Politics of Envy"claptrap, I would not have bothered to debate the topic. Some LOC posters on here will leave estates that pay tax: who are they supposed to hate & envy -- themselves?! Yr estate. jointly with yr partner, will have an exemption of £650,000 plus extra £175,000? if you leave yr house directly to yr offspring = £825,000. Any extra will pay 40%. I suspect that any IHT paid on yr estate will be a small proportion of what yr kids receive. What is the problem? Don't they use the NHS, state schools, etc, etc.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 17:48:21 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. I've learnt more from wb61 about the law and @lazlo4new about business methods and eastern Europe and @jimjam and others about polling and alec about all sorts of minutiae, so thank you to you and and all the rest of you knowledgeable people who help elevate our meanderings into something based on fact and knowledge. Privileged to be here. Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara. Only us Tories get tangled up in blue Batty.
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,164
Member is Online
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 5, 2022 17:52:10 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. I've learnt more from wb61 about the law and @lazlo4new about business methods and eastern Europe and @jimjam and others about polling and alec about all sorts of minutiae, so thank you to you and and all the rest of you knowledgeable people who help elevate our meanderings into something based on fact and knowledge. Privileged to be here. Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara. crossbat11 !!!!!
(Ok I’m not Barbara, but still…)
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Aug 5, 2022 17:54:58 GMT
I love UKPR2 While it allows me to wang on about women's rights and dancing and mercian can post his UKIPlite thoughts and colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines and steve can entertain us with his twitter posts and @crofty can make us laugh and @crossbat can wax lyrical about football and chrisaberavon can tell us what Harold Wilson said about anything .....there are actual people on here who know stuff. I've learnt more from wb61 about the law and @lazlo4new about business methods and eastern Europe and @jimjam and others about polling and alec about all sorts of minutiae, so thank you to you and and all the rest of you knowledgeable people who help elevate our meanderings into something based on fact and knowledge. Privileged to be here. Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara. Apologies - I'm just getting the hang of this @ stuff crossbat11 jimjam (@lazlo4new doesn't seem to work)
|
|
|
Post by laszlo4new on Aug 5, 2022 18:03:53 GMT
Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara. Apologies - I'm just getting the hang of this @ stuff crossbat11 jimjam (@lazlo4new doesn't seem to work) Just an "s" is missing barbara - it is pretty common. Some people even after 30 years of knowing me drop it Oh, and it was a nice comment.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 5, 2022 18:05:01 GMT
The only way not to be ashamed of parts of UK history is to be ignorant of it, as many are. Can anyone truly say they are proud of the slave trade, the opium wars, the Tasmanian genocide, the Irish and (multiple) Indian famines caused by British policy, the Amritsar massacre, the Boer War concentration camps, the gas bombing of Iraqi Kurds in the 1920s - the list of horrors goes on and on. I'm not saying the UK hasn't also done good in the world but whitewashing the past won't help you understand why so many ex-colonial countries are cynical about British self-image. What has the UK done good in the world? Presumably it would be a very short list. Why do those cynical ex-colonial countries want to keep close ties to the UK through the Commonwealth? Would they not benefit economically with closer ties to China? Fair enough, here is some of the good stuff - the concept of representative Parliamentary democracy, the concept of the 'rule of law' (i.e. every one is equal under the law), the Royal Navy suppressing piracy and the slave trade (cynics might say after they had ceased to be profitable for the UK, but nevertheless still a good thing), a whole range of technologies and inventions, key economic ideas (for example free trade), major cultural contributions across a whole range of fields (including inventing most major sports), and keeping World War 2 going long enough for the Soviet Union and USA to win it. As to the Commonwealth, if you believe its existence is a sign that the ex-colonies still love the 'mother country', then that is a very naive view. It is a much more transactional relationship. And yes many Commonwealth countries in Africa and the Pacific are seeking closer economic links with China, although they would be wise to sup with a long spoon. China is strong enough to still have active imperialistic ambitions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 18:20:22 GMT
By the same token, someone with savings substantial enough to be liable for inheritance tax could just as easily go to the bank draw out a nice lump sum and give it to relatives. Again, nobody would know. There are not spy cameras on banknotes. Should someone gaining a house wish to then sell it, if subject to inheritance tax, I really don't see a problem. They would still gain much of the value. If they wish to live in it, or already doing to and wish to continue, then it could become problematic....but, surely only then. With regard to the Lifetime Gifts exemption , 7 years must have elapsed prior to death, and I make the assumption that , where relevant, the IR check the records of the deceased. So I'm not too sanguine about the idea of giving it all away without them knowing. On your final thought about the status of an inherited house, we will just have to disagree . I'm not on the same page as you Mark
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Aug 5, 2022 18:21:57 GMT
Very disappointed my name didn't light up in blue. Laszlo, JimJam and I myself obviously need to try harder. I want to be tangled up in blue, Barbara. crossbat11 !!!!!
(Ok I’m not Barbara, but still…) Almost as big as my ego, Carfrew! 😉
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 18:25:21 GMT
If I had known Colin that you object to IHT on principle, & were going to give us what I am disappointed to find is the usual "LOC class-hatred-resentment", "Politics of Envy"claptrap, I would not have bothered to debate the topic. Sorry -I would have mentioned it earlier and saved us both a lot of wasted time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 18:32:37 GMT
sunak's admission today, claiming he was doing good by taking money from the poorest areas and giving it to leafy middle class areas rather gives the game away about how Tories think about levelling up. Clearly, it's about places, and it's been clear for a long time now that the places that it's most about are the ones that have, or might, vote Tory. The adjustment to the way of measuring poverty to include a measurement of the distance required to travel to work and the method used to measure that, was how Sunak's own very wealthy constituency was able to qualify as poor. This was clearly gerrymandering. For me, levelling up needs to be about people. That will obviously end up being reflected in place, to a large extent, as poor people tend to live together in poor areas, but as with debates about tax, wealth and age cohorts, we forget that in every area and every group, there are some that need help. Leading from this, we get to welfare, which is given on the basis of individual need. Conservatives want easy, place based answers that they can gerrymander for electoral gain, as Sunak was attempting today. What we actually need is to use resources to follow the individuals in need and help them, but of course, anything to do with welfare is an anathema to Conservatives. Steals from the poor To give to the rich… Silly bitch
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 18:34:14 GMT
Thought this little prelude to Palace v Arsenal on the Guardian feed was rather nice:
“The lovely thing about dogs is that they’re always thrilled to see you. Even if you pop out to post a letter and come back two minutes later, you’ll be greeted as if you’ve been away since 2017.
A similar thing happens whenever a new football season begins. We all do a big jig of excitement to celebrate the fact that football is BACK, even though it hever really went away. This year we had the Nations League in June and the Euros in July, not to mention a gazillion extensively covered pre-season friendlies and 482,195 transfer exclusives. Doesn’t matter. Loyal old football-loving dogs that we are, we’ll always start wagging our tail before the first game of the season. Wag wag wag.”
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 18:34:43 GMT
If wealth was taxed as we went along as per property tax say then we wouldn’t need or want an inheritance tax
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,164
Member is Online
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 5, 2022 18:48:03 GMT
Almost as big as my ego, Carfrew! 😉 😲 well they didn’t have a bigger font, batters
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Aug 5, 2022 19:03:38 GMT
Thought this little prelude to Palace v Arsenal on the Guardian feed was rather nice: “The lovely thing about dogs is that they’re always thrilled to see you. Even if you pop out to post a letter and come back two minutes later, you’ll be greeted as if you’ve been away since 2017. A similar thing happens whenever a new football season begins. We all do a big jig of excitement to celebrate the fact that football is BACK, even though it hever really went away. This year we had the Nations League in June and the Euros in July, not to mention a gazillion extensively covered pre-season friendlies and 482,195 transfer exclusives. Doesn’t matter. Loyal old football-loving dogs that we are, we’ll always start wagging our tail before the first game of the season. Wag wag wag.” Very well put and my sentiments exactly. For all its many faults, vices and excesses, underneath it all it remains the same old beguiling game I fell in love with when I was a child. The whistles sound this week, very early too, but off we go again. I'm on board too, as I expect I always will be. First stop Bournemouth at 3.00pm for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 19:12:17 GMT
Sorry, I've got carried away, so I'll stop now!
Not at all. I read every word. Content and Tone. A welcome reminder ( and a timely one too !) that when thinking again about the Labour Party , make absolutely sure I know who is really calling the shots.
|
|
|
Post by JohnC on Aug 5, 2022 19:18:14 GMT
What has the UK done good in the world? Presumably it would be a very short list. Why do those cynical ex-colonial countries want to keep close ties to the UK through the Commonwealth? Would they not benefit economically with closer ties to China? Fair enough, here is some of the good stuff - the concept of representative Parliamentary democracy, the concept of the 'rule of law' (i.e. every one is equal under the law), the Royal Navy suppressing piracy and the slave trade (cynics might say after they had ceased to be profitable for the UK, but nevertheless still a good thing), a whole range of technologies and inventions, key economic ideas (for example free trade), major cultural contributions across a whole range of fields (including inventing most major sports), and keeping World War 2 going long enough for the Soviet Union and USA to win it. As to the Commonwealth, if you believe its existence is a sign that the ex-colonies still love the 'mother country', then that is a very naive view. It is a much more transactional relationship. And yes many Commonwealth countries in Africa and the Pacific are seeking closer economic links with China, although they would be wise to sup with a long spoon. China is strong enough to still have active imperialistic ambitions. That doesn't seem such a bad record. That the ex-colonies feel they can have a transactional arrangement with the UK under the umbrella of the Commonwealth without being exploited (I understand some African countries are becoming concerned about China's motives) also seems a positive.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 19:19:17 GMT
colin can snipe and sneer from the side-lines Thanks. When will I be allowed to snipe and sneer on the pitch with the rest of you though ? Is there a waiting time.? Or an exam ? -I don't mind brushing up a bit.
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,164
Member is Online
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 5, 2022 19:31:36 GMT
Tesla urged to build gigafactory in Teesside as Elon Musk plots new plants around the world 'Bureaucratic entanglements' seen elsewhere could be avoided, Tory mayor tells tycoon
“Elon Musk has been urged to bring a Tesla plant to the North East of England after the electric car company revealed its ambition to build a dozen “gigafactories” across the world.
Ben Houchen, the Conservative Mayor for Tees Valley, wrote to Mr Musk on Friday calling on the Tesla billionaire to bring an electric car plant to the North East.
In a letter seen by The Telegraph, Mr Houchen wrote: “In the UK, where we have an £82bn automobile industry which leads the world in production of high end vehicles, it would surely make sense for Tesla to develop a serious presence, with Teesside being the best possible location to do this.””
…
Think it’ll happen?
|
|