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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 20:55:17 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. It's usually £1m before you pay any IHT. Husband and wife can both claim separate allowances (which can be claimed at a future date for the person who dies first) @ £325k and husband and wife additional own home allowance of £175k each and I don't believe you currently need to own a home but simply have owned one in the past (say you sell the home to go into a care home). So if the hubbie pre-deceased her then maybe they had already used some of his IHT allowance? That would make it a less modest overall family inheritance than your £850k. But anyway £80k tax on £850k (if you can't claim the own home allowance) is not that much in the scheme of things as compared to other ways we raise tax. Well they weren't very financially sophisticated and neither is the family member who is acting as executor, so I think they'll have paid IHT on whatever was over £650k, but it's really unimportant. This all started because I was simply trying to give a possible explanation to lefthanging.
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Post by thylacine on Aug 4, 2022 21:00:33 GMT
It's usually £1m before you pay any IHT. Husband and wife can both claim separate allowances (which can be claimed at a future date for the person who dies first) @ £325k and husband and wife additional own home allowance of £175k each and I don't believe you currently need to own a home but simply have owned one in the past (say you sell the home to go into a care home). So if the hubbie pre-deceased her then maybe they had already used some of his IHT allowance? That would make it a less modest overall family inheritance than your £850k. But anyway £80k tax on £850k (if you can't claim the own home allowance) is not that much in the scheme of things as compared to other ways we raise tax. Well they weren't very financially sophisticated and neither is the family member who is acting as executor, so I think they'll have paid IHT on whatever was over £650k, but it's really unimportant. This all started because I was simply trying to give a possible explanation to lefthanging. The 650,000 would have been both their allowances the 175,000 nil rate band they both would have been entitled to on their property would only have applied to children or grandchildren inheriting which I think you said they didn't have.
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Post by graham on Aug 4, 2022 21:04:10 GMT
Sunak appears to have come over better tonight in the Sky encounter. Could this change the dynamics of the contest given that ballot papers will not now arrive until next week?
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Post by pete on Aug 4, 2022 21:05:36 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. That's wealthy. There will be people starving and freezing to death this coming winter in this country, your family members were wealthy.
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Post by thylacine on Aug 4, 2022 21:06:01 GMT
Sunak appears to have come over better tonight in the Sky encounter. Could this change the dynamics of the contest given that ballot papers will not now arrive until next week? Not according to Conservativehome who say the Truss lead is baked in.
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 21:10:29 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. That's wealthy. There will be people starving and freezing to death this coming winter in this country, your family members were wealthy. Ok, pjw1961 actually used the phrase 'seriously wealthy', but it's just a matter of opinion and semantics. As it all started with me just trying to give lefthanging a suggestion about something he/she was puzzled about (see various other recent posts) can we just leave it at that?
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 4, 2022 21:11:04 GMT
Sunak appears to have come over better tonight in the Sky encounter. Could this change the dynamics of the contest given that ballot papers will not now arrive until next week? It's certainly bought him some time. A commodity that was running out for him. A fortuitous IT cock-up in the voting system, or did Team Sunak develop some cunning malware??
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Post by pete on Aug 4, 2022 21:12:21 GMT
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Post by thylacine on Aug 4, 2022 21:14:46 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. That's wealthy. There will be people starving and freezing to death this coming winter in this country, your family members were wealthy. As Mercian says this is a subjective debate. Yes you could say they were seriously wealthy but say for instance in the South where the average house price is approaching 500,000 they would perhaps only look moderately well off. Of course in comparison to the starving and freezing either states of wealth will look stratospheric.It is all relative
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Post by thylacine on Aug 4, 2022 21:18:56 GMT
mercian, apologies I posted before I saw your request.
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Post by alec on Aug 4, 2022 21:33:53 GMT
On Inheritance Tax, as with Income Tax, we get tied up in knots over the debate about where, exactly, on the earnings and wealth scale do you pass from being poor or average to the point of being rich. There are ways to measure this - we know, for example, where average wages or average size of estate upon death sits, and that is always far lower than most people think, but even so, many people well above the average don't necessarily feel well off. And then there are arguments about whether £38,000 is as good a wage in Surrey as it is in Middlesborough.
So I think this argument about thresholds and who pays is ultimately pointless and self defeating. Return to basics, and start accepting that everyone pays tax, if at all possible, but then work on the rates at which people pay, and don't construct huge cliff edge thresholds, like the 20%/40% income tax rates. Labour had the basics of the solution for inheritance tax spot on - a small charge against all estates except the very smallest, with the charge graded depending on the size of the estate. More people pay, and because of that, the rate at which any one person pays is kept down. Universality applying to how we raise tax, as well as how we spend it.
On income tax, abandon the pretense that we can keep lifting the tax free allowance so more and more people pay nothing, and accept a lower threshold, with a much lower starting rate, with graded bands as you move up the earnings scales. Ultimately, these systems of taxation would generate more revenue more fairly, and would avoid the division we now have between those who pay in and those who take out. Inheritance tax in particular is ripe for this kind of reform.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 21:38:03 GMT
The good thing for Labour is that the voters will have year of Truss if she wins and the economic back drop is not good. Unlike last election when voters had only seen a few months of Johnson as PM . So dont be suprised if the Tory Poll ratings improve, they might even go for election later this year. The issue for Labour is that trying to portray themselves as the more competent of the parties but offering less against a party that will promise the earth is that many voters will go for the party with big promises without detailing the consequences of those policies. Also if Labour are cautious on areas like post brexit EU relations without promising anything different to what we have now, this would not help get some of the core vote out and provide a dividing line between the two parties on a key issue.
It's this whole promising the earth thing... Can a political party just say what it wants these days and get into power? Is there any historical precedent?
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Post by pete on Aug 4, 2022 21:39:23 GMT
I don't get it. Every time I see Sunak v Truss (admittedly I've only watched bits and pieces) he destroys her, but they're going to pick Truss...are they mad?
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Post by pete on Aug 4, 2022 21:49:08 GMT
That's wealthy. There will be people starving and freezing to death this coming winter in this country, your family members were wealthy. As Mercian says this is a subjective debate. Yes you could say they were seriously wealthy but say for instance in the South where the average house price is approaching 500,000 they would perhaps only look moderately well off. Of course in comparison to the starving and freezing either states of wealth will look stratospheric.It is all relative Its the £350k savings that wins it for me, they're wealthy. It would take me 20 years to earn that.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 4, 2022 21:50:18 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the Government has gone awol Yes. I mean we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer don’t we?? Colin is expecting Starmer to make a statement. Maybe Keir’s been installed at the Treasury.
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 21:55:19 GMT
mercian , apologies I posted before I saw your request. Thanks for being the only one who seemed to get what I was saying!
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Post by bardin1 on Aug 4, 2022 21:55:52 GMT
Burley's question about a single mother earning 10k a year struggling
Truss - reverse NI rise
Burley- she's under the threshold
Truss - cut corporation tax
ha ha ha
Surely people's brains work, no?
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 22:02:09 GMT
As Mercian says this is a subjective debate. Yes you could say they were seriously wealthy but say for instance in the South where the average house price is approaching 500,000 they would perhaps only look moderately well off. Of course in comparison to the starving and freezing either states of wealth will look stratospheric.It is all relative Its the £350k savings that wins it for me, they're wealthy. It would take me 20 years to earn that. They had more than me. They had both worked for 40+ years and inherited something from their parents (and they were frugal to the point of miserly). I try to give as much as I can to my kids and grandkids as we go along and just keep enough back for a few years in a care home. I always think the young (or middle-aged) need the money more than old fogeys.
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Post by RAF on Aug 4, 2022 22:05:36 GMT
Truss's "I was misinterpreted" seems to be a stock answer when she has no real reply. It reminds me of the phrase: "that would be ecumenical matter". (If you know, you know!)
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 22:05:40 GMT
Burley's question about a single mother earning 10k a year struggling Truss - reverse NI rise Burley- she's under the threshold Truss - cut corporation tax ha ha ha Surely people's brains work, no? Not when you are hardwired into a dogma that sees taxes as bad, pay rises for workers as bad and benefits payments as bad (unless they are for pensioners). It doesn't leave you much room to do anything to help people.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 4, 2022 22:09:33 GMT
It's completely irrelevant whether the people whose estates are liable to inheritance tax are regarded as wealthy or not. They're dead: they don't pay any tax. Their children or other relatives are inheriting house-price inflation, truly unearned wealth, to which they have made no contribution. As people tend to marry in the same social register, it is common for both partners to inherit wealth. House-price inflation is never taxed during the owners' lifetime unless they are second-home owners. Tax hould be paid at the point of transfer to the next generation.
Typicallly people inherit in their late 40s/50s when their parents die in their late 70s/80s. The legatees pay off their mortagages, act as the Bank of Mum & Dad for their kids' (aged 30+) house purchases, buy a holiday home maybe, & then plan early retirement. Inherited wealth thus contributes to house-price inflation & causes premature economic inactivity. It creates inequality by excluding those whose parents don't own their houses, who are likely to be on lower incomes/pensions. It's a self-perpetuating, middle-class racket.
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Post by graham on Aug 4, 2022 22:28:19 GMT
I find myself in a similar - and fortunate - position to Mercian's relatives - less property value but more savings. As of today , I will not pay a penny of Inheritance Tax - because I have stipulated via my Will that my entire Estate is to be given to three specific Charities.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 4, 2022 22:37:31 GMT
I will be interested to see how cos play Maggie in her " emergency budget" explains why its impossible to offer additional support for people in fuel poverty and also impossible to implement the agreed £17 billion in taxes on hugely profitable businesses.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 4, 2022 22:43:11 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w I'm guessing that means I'd be the sort to buy snake-oil? 😄 No it was just a test, I wasn't expecting anything really. I'm so wealthy that I can afford to light my cigarettes with £20 notes. 🤣 But you soon won't be able to afford the gas for your lighter. and single matches will cost more than £20.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Aug 4, 2022 22:48:51 GMT
I don't get it. Every time I see Sunak v Truss (admittedly I've only watched bits and pieces) he destroys her, but they're going to pick Truss...are they mad? Well, she's white, female and a Thatcher impersonator. And the electorate are mainly old, white men who probably voted in the real Thatcher time after time.
Or course I could just be being cynical.
Perhaps.
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 4, 2022 22:57:38 GMT
mercian Re inheritance tax, less than 4% of estates pay any inheritance tax at all. For the other 96% it would be a nice problem to have I wasn't commenting on whether inheritance tax is right or wrong, but trying to give a suggestion to lefthanging who was mystified why relatively poor people were against it. Anyone who has over £650k in assets cannot be considered "poor". Of course, I'm "poor" relative to the Duke of Westminster, but that just shows why being "poor" relative to other individuals is a meaningless comparison. We set the 'poverty line' at 60% of median earnings, so it makes sense to put "relatively poor" in asset terms at somewhere around the same level. The Resolution Foundation report www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2020/12/The-UKs-wealth-distribution.pdf shows the fifth decile of the population as having just over £100k in assets per adult in a family, which illustrates why so few people actually pay inheritance tax.
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 4, 2022 23:12:24 GMT
On income tax, abandon the pretense that we can keep lifting the tax free allowance so more and more people pay nothing, and accept a lower threshold, with a much lower starting rate, with graded bands as you move up the earnings scales. Ultimately, these systems of taxation would generate more revenue more fairly, and would avoid the division we now have between those who pay in and those who take out. Inheritance tax in particular is ripe for this kind of reform. I cannot see the moral grounds for telling people who are on minimum wage that they should be paying income tax. I would rather see them keeping all the money they earn, instead of taking some of it from them and then giving them more back because they don't have enough to live on. The problem with income tax is that while a pound in your pocket buys you exactly the same, how much income you need to leave you with that pound depends on your source of income and varies considerably: an effective tax rate of 32% if you are an employee, 20% if it is unearned income (rents or dividends) and even less if it comes from capital gains. If we taxed everyone at the same rate for the same income level, we could afford lower tax rates and a higher personal allowance.
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Post by isa on Aug 5, 2022 1:13:41 GMT
Truss's "I was misinterpreted" seems to be a stock answer when she has no real reply. It reminds me of the phrase: "that would be ecumenical matter". (If you know, you know!) Good old Father Jack.
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Post by pete on Aug 5, 2022 4:27:30 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 5, 2022 4:52:38 GMT
pete Some of Starmer's "offences" include. "Starmer received an £18,450 advance from publisher HarperCollins in April for a book he is writing, in which he is expected to set out his vision for Britain. The sum – which he has pledged to donate to charitable causes – was declared a day late, while declarations of royalties for two legal books published before he became an MP were also delayed. Starmer also received use of a directors’ box for two people at Crystal Palace football club – worth £720 – when the team thrashed the club he supports, Arsenal, 3-0 on 4 April. It was not registered until 5 May. He received four tickets for Watford v Arsenal, worth a total of £1,416, for their 6 March match. The gift was registered on 6 May. Just Eat also gave tickets to his staff for the Taste of London festival and the British Kebab awards. The donations from the company exceeded the £300 limit for registration on 29 October but were not declared until 23" Another includes the late registration of sale of a plot of land that I seem to recall is being used as a donkey sanctuary. At no point did he lie to parliament or anyone else for that matter or attempt to evade anything , the submissions were simply a few days late and were all made voluntarily not dragged out of him after repeated attempts to hide culpability or lie about anything. Sounds like a clerical delay by his office tbh, a position the Westminster authorities appear to endorse given that no sanction was recommended, not remotely like Spaffer and while I anticipate that the far right press might latch on to it and suggest it is, like much of their "journalism" it will be laughably inaccurate partisan crap.
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