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Post by RAF on Aug 4, 2022 19:15:39 GMT
Liz is trying to argue that the tax burden is leading the UK into recession. Two problems with this analysis:
1. She voted for all of the tax rises in question.
2. She is absolving from blame rampant Energy company profiteering; the cost of supporting Ukraine; the cost of lockdown; the cost of Brexit; the cost of benefits to subsidise low wages etc...
No. Just the act of putting up taxes will lead to a recession. No context whatsoever.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Aug 4, 2022 19:21:25 GMT
I believe it's from boreholes in Staffordshire. But it was a general point, not meant to be specifically about water. I've met a few boreholes from Staffordshire myself - although none of them have ever offered me any water. I refuses to rise to that. We is almost Cheshire where the orange people live and almost Shropshire where almost nobody lives.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Aug 4, 2022 19:24:20 GMT
For example (anecdote alert) I have a few relatives who agreed with much of the meat the 2017 manifesto (rail and energy nationalisation, income tax rises for the top 5%) but who identify as right wingers and say they would never vote Labour. When I ask why it is always very high-level complaints about Labour's past management of the economy with a sprinkling of support for the death penalty. They also spend a fair of time complaining about inheritance tax, despite having worked in low income jobs and not owning property. A mystery to me. Re your anecdote. I suspect that there's an element harking back to forelock tugging days in that it makes them feel superior to have Tory principles because the Toffs are Tories.
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Post by catmanjeff on Aug 4, 2022 19:25:44 GMT
Has Liz Truss been preprogrammed to speak so robotically?
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 19:27:27 GMT
Currently watching the prelude to the debate. Either I am blind or Tories look a lot younger than their real age. I have only seen a couple of people interviewed who appear over 60 never mind the supposed average age of 65. Obviously a truly representative audience!!. Suspect it will favour Sunnak. Perhaps it's only relatively young and energetic people who can be bothered to go when it's on the telly anyway?
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 19:32:22 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-wI'm guessing that means I'd be the sort to buy snake-oil? 😄 No it was just a test, I wasn't expecting anything really. I'm so wealthy that I can afford to light my cigarettes with £20 notes. 🤣
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 19:36:28 GMT
Liz is trying to argue that the tax burden is leading the UK into recession. Two problems with this analysis: 1. She voted for all of the tax rises in question. 2. She is absolving from blame rampant Energy company profiteering; the cost of supporting Ukraine; the cost of lockdown; the cost of Brexit; the cost of benefits to subsidise low wages etc... No. Just the act of putting up taxes will lead to a recession. No context whatsoever. I'd query the bit about energy company profiteering. The suppliers have been going bust because of the price cap. The producers such as BP and so on sell on the world market, and demand forces the price up especially when there's a shortage because of Russia. They can't really help making money!
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 19:38:32 GMT
For example (anecdote alert) I have a few relatives who agreed with much of the meat the 2017 manifesto (rail and energy nationalisation, income tax rises for the top 5%) but who identify as right wingers and say they would never vote Labour. When I ask why it is always very high-level complaints about Labour's past management of the economy with a sprinkling of support for the death penalty. They also spend a fair of time complaining about inheritance tax, despite having worked in low income jobs and not owning property. A mystery to me. Re your anecdote. I suspect that there's an element harking back to forelock tugging days in that it makes them feel superior to have Tory principles because the Toffs are Tories. Or dislike of the principle. If there is inheritance now for the moderately well off, what's to stop a future government making every estate subject to it?
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 19:38:54 GMT
Liz is trying to argue that the tax burden is leading the UK into recession. Two problems with this analysis: 1. She voted for all of the tax rises in question. 2. She is absolving from blame rampant Energy company profiteering; the cost of supporting Ukraine; the cost of lockdown; the cost of Brexit; the cost of benefits to subsidise low wages etc... No. Just the act of putting up taxes will lead to a recession. No context whatsoever. There's a third problem - it is economically illiterate nonsense. If she appoints someone as Chancellor who shares her views this country is going to be so shafted in 2 years time.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 4, 2022 19:39:03 GMT
Has Liz Truss been preprogrammed to speak so robotically? She.....will.......be......ex...term....in....ated. Hopefully. In the ballot box, not literally.
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Post by catmanjeff on Aug 4, 2022 19:39:23 GMT
Liz Truss likes to be clear.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,374
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 19:44:23 GMT
Re your anecdote. I suspect that there's an element harking back to forelock tugging days in that it makes them feel superior to have Tory principles because the Toffs are Tories. Or dislike of the principle. If there is inheritance now for the moderately well off, what's to stop a future government making every estate subject to it? Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 19:45:47 GMT
Has Liz Truss been preprogrammed to speak so robotically? She.....will.......be......ex...term....in....ated. Hopefully. In the ballot box, not literally. A job for our colleague exterminatingdalek then.
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 19:54:37 GMT
pjw1961"Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 4, 2022 19:59:47 GMT
She.....will.......be......ex...term....in....ated. Hopefully. In the ballot box, not literally. A job for our colleague exterminatingdalek then. Forgot about our old friend. I've always wanted to ask him if there ever was a Dalek that didn't like exterminating rivals. His moniker implies there was. A pacifist Dalek may be?
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 4, 2022 20:08:57 GMT
Just saw this in the Telegraph:
“Private school pupils earn £10,000 more than state school counterparts by age of 30
ONS finds fee-paying school pupils earn an average of £33,000 compared to just under £23,000 for state pupils not from low-income homes”
…
“People from low-income backgrounds who went to state school earned £17,000 on average by the age of 30, the first research of its kind by the UK statistics authority found.
A pupil eligible for free school meals who had the same level of education, GCSE attainment, years of work experience, ethnicity and went to a secondary school in the same region as someone who attended an independent school would still earn on average 20 per cent less than the independent student.“
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The research found the vast majority of the earnings gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other students was accounted for by their level of education and labour market experience.
If a free school meal student had the same labour market experience as a non-free school meal student, the earnings gap between the two at the age of 30 would typically halve.
…
However, the research showed that a small proportion of the earnings gap between disadvantaged pupils and their peers was unexplained by work experience or education.”
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 4, 2022 20:09:35 GMT
mercian Re inheritance tax, less than 4% of estates pay any inheritance tax at all. For the other 96% it would be a nice problem to have
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Post by catmanjeff on Aug 4, 2022 20:12:14 GMT
Sunak seems way more fluent and coherent.
I'm kind of struggling to see why objectively someone could prefer Truss for PM.
Mind you, using the phrase lefty lawyers a hideous moment.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 20:15:47 GMT
A job for our colleague exterminatingdalek then. Forgot about our old friend. I've always wanted to ask him if there ever was a Dalek that didn't like exterminating rivals. His moniker implies there was. A pacifist Dalek may be? Proving my geek credentials I refer you to: villains.fandom.com/wiki/Rusty_(Doctor_Who)Not a pacifist though as it was still genocidal toward other Daleks.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 4, 2022 20:23:15 GMT
Forgot about our old friend. I've always wanted to ask him if there ever was a Dalek that didn't like exterminating rivals. His moniker implies there was. A pacifist Dalek may be? Proving my geek credentials I refer you to: villains.fandom.com/wiki/Rusty_(Doctor_Who)Not a pacifist though as it was still genocidal toward other Daleks. Ok, ok...I see where the batting averages to the fourth decimal point come from now. 😉😁
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 20:23:44 GMT
mercian Re inheritance tax, less than 4% of estates pay any inheritance tax at all. For the other 96% it would be a nice problem to have I wasn't commenting on whether inheritance tax is right or wrong, but trying to give a suggestion to lefthanging who was mystified why relatively poor people were against it.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 20:30:51 GMT
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 4, 2022 20:32:11 GMT
mercian Re inheritance tax, less than 4% of estates pay any inheritance tax at all. For the other 96% it would be a nice problem to have I wasn't commenting on whether inheritance tax is right or wrong, but trying to give a suggestion to lefthanging who was mystified why relatively poor people were against it. But relatively poor people (by relatively I mean compared to the average) don't pay it, less than 1 in 20 estates pay any tax at all. If 80% plus Estates paid it then I could understand, not less than 4%.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 20:34:48 GMT
Ok, ok...I see where the batting averages to the fourth decimal point come from now. 😉😁 Sadly true. Psephology too.
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Post by RAF on Aug 4, 2022 20:39:43 GMT
Sunak seems way more fluent and coherent. I'm kind of struggling to see why objectively someone could prefer Truss for PM. Mind you, using the phrase lefty lawyers a hideous moment. For quite a few years now, Tory members have yearned for very low tax, very small state policies; even though not even Margaret Thatcher offered this. Maybe it isn't even Tory members pushing it, but obscure, opaque groups like the Taxpayers' Alliance, the ERG and others over at Tufton Street: as well as the Press. Either way, Liz Truss offers to meet this demand.
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Post by shevii on Aug 4, 2022 20:40:16 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. It's usually £1m before you pay any IHT. Husband and wife can both claim separate allowances (which can be claimed at a future date for the person who dies first) @ £325k and husband and wife additional own home allowance of £175k each and I don't believe you currently need to own a home but simply have owned one in the past (say you sell the home to go into a care home). So if the hubbie pre-deceased her then maybe they had already used some of his IHT allowance? That would make it a less modest overall family inheritance than your £850k. But anyway £80k tax on £850k (if you can't claim the own home allowance) is not that much in the scheme of things as compared to other ways we raise tax.
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Post by matt126 on Aug 4, 2022 20:48:29 GMT
The good thing for Labour is that the voters will have year of Truss if she wins and the economic back drop is not good. Unlike last election when voters had only seen a few months of Johnson as PM . So dont be suprised if the Tory Poll ratings improve, they might even go for election later this year.
The issue for Labour is that trying to portray themselves as the more competent of the parties but offering less against a party that will promise the earth is that many voters will go for the party with big promises without detailing the consequences of those policies. Also if Labour are cautious on areas like post brexit EU relations without promising anything different to what we have now, this would not help get some of the core vote out and provide a dividing line between the two parties on a key issue.
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Post by mercian on Aug 4, 2022 20:50:49 GMT
You've got a bit muddled, probably because there's been a long debate involving several people. I used the phrase 'relatively poor' to refer to this post from lefthanging " They also spend a fair of time complaining about inheritance tax, despite having worked in low income jobs and not owning property. A mystery to me." I previously used the phrase 'moderately well-off' to refer to those paying IHT. Anyway, as these are all relative terms there's not a lot of point debating it any more.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 4, 2022 20:52:36 GMT
Sunak seems way more fluent and coherent. I'm kind of struggling to see why objectively someone could prefer Truss for PM. Mind you, using the phrase lefty lawyers a hideous moment. For quite a few years now, Tory members have yearned for very low tax, very small state policies; even though not even Margaret Thatcher offered this. Maybe it isn't even Tory members pushing it, but obscure, opaque groups like the Taxpayers' Alliance, the ERG and others over at Tufton Street: as well as the Press. Either way, Liz Truss offers to meet this demand. Not sure where that leaves the 'red wall' Tory MPs.
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Post by thylacine on Aug 4, 2022 20:54:29 GMT
pjw1961 "Inheritance Tax isn't for the moderately well off; only the seriously wealthy pay it and the super-rich generally also dodge it via complex tax arrangements (as the Duke of Westminster managed to do). I inherited a £560,000 estate from my parents and didn't have to pay a penny of Inheritance Tax. " I suspect we're debating over the exact cut-off point where 'moderately' becomes 'seriously' which is of course subjective. But I give you a counter-example. My wife's sister recently passed away, her husband having pre-deceased her. They had no children so the estate will be shared around the extended family. They had a nice house in the Birmingham suburbs worth about £500k and about £350k in savings because they led a very frugal life. There was inheritance tax to pay. Now to me they were moderately well-off rather than super wealthy. It's usually £1m before you pay any IHT. Husband and wife can both claim separate allowances (which can be claimed at a future date for the person who dies first) @ £325k and husband and wife additional own home allowance of £175k each and I don't believe you currently need to own a home but simply have owned one in the past (say you sell the home to go into a care home). So if the hubbie pre-deceased her then maybe they had already used some of his IHT allowance? That would make it a less modest overall family inheritance than your £850k. But anyway £80k tax on £850k (if you can't claim the own home allowance) is not that much in the scheme of things as compared to other ways we raise tax. The 175,000 nil band allowance may only be applicable for children or grandchildren inheriting so that is possibly why this estate has been taxed.
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