Danny
Member
Posts: 10,362
|
Post by Danny on May 9, 2022 18:38:24 GMT
If you want to do that, it's your right. (Just as it is Danny's not to be vaccinated.) Wear your mask all the time if you want to. But please, stop making out that you are right and the majority of people are wrong. There are many problems in the world, many far greater than Covid, and to fixate on the latter is not sensible or helpful. , Lens is absolutely right to point out the amount of money spent on covid is quite insane and cannot be justified by results in any manner. Its simply a horrendous waste by any normal standard. Anyone involved in government or politics must understand that spending money on one thing means it cannot be spent on another. Someone chose to throw this money at covid management, instead of say spending it on effective health care, and should be held to account for squandering it. I had covid in 2019 before it was supposed to exist. I am not the only one locally who experienced something similar, but I can trace a direct link to someone with 'flu' (no such thing as covid in 2019) coming to the location from which I caught it, direct from Wuhan in China. I understand that you Alec cannot publicly accept that, because it means Labour were utterly wrong in supporting government anti covid measures. It is proof covid was always much less serious than experts claimed. To be fair to them, SAGE didn't claim it was that severe, only that it might be. It wasnt. But the politicians ran with this and now refuse to admit they made a terrible mistake. In a sense your adherence to lockdown and interventions is at least consistent, but the rest of both labour and conservative parties have tacitly admitted they were wrong by abandoning interventions. As to vaccines, obviously I had no man made vaccine before catching covid in 2019, but I would have benefitted from the process of vaccination by being infected with other corona viruses in the past. As you pointed out recently, covid vaccines also give some protection against other corona viruses. I posted information from a Californian study somewhen in 2021 which reported this. Just as infection by covid generates antibodies which also work against other corona viruses. And indeed work better to protect you against new covid infections than does currently available vaccine. This year I had covid again, which I also reported here. Once again both me and my partner had it, and both times I had it more mildly. Despite my having no vaccinations and my partner three before the recent infections. Both of us had milder symptoms than first time round, On this inadequate sample, vaccination was quite pointless. But that is exactly what you would have expected if we both had covid in 2019. You would expect we were already both protected better than by vaccination anyway. Now if you still believe we did not have covid in 2019, then you must believe we had some other disease with the correct symptoms and age risk profile for covid, which hit hastings but never spread across the nation. Which would be remarkably lucky because it was clearly a rather worse illness than actual covid, which I had recently. Alec, its game set and match that hastings had covid in 2019. Its proven beyond reasonable doubt. Its exactly right to explain the spread to London early in 2020, which government failed to detect because it was only testing international travellers. One of a long string of failures.
One of my reasons for not being vaccinated was precisely to put my money where my mouth is. Sooner or later I would be exposed to covid again, and we would see what happened. This is a medical trial which should have been carried out, but has not been. To explicitly test if there is actually any point in vaccinating anyone who has already had covid. The general data says in most cases there isnt.
All the world had some immunity to covid before it arrived. But it is a reasonable assumption supported by what has happened, that the region of the world where covid emerged has had more past exposure to related corona viruses. And thats the real reason why that region was better able to contain covid than the rest. The irony is that China's best course would most likely have always been not to bother with lockdown, but just allow managed spread. Had they done this their covid disruption would by now be long over. What they actually did initiated a cascade of copycat interventions across the world, with awful consequences.
|
|
|
|
Post by johntel on May 9, 2022 18:41:47 GMT
Jon tells wrote "Everything I've read so far implies that Starmer's culpability is greater than Sunak's. " Please tell us what you have read!!! Well if you really want to know  , I read that Starmer knew he was going to an organised event, the dinner lasted 1.5 hours, he had beer & curry, there was no work afterwards. Sunak didn't know it was organised, he was there for 10 minutes, he had a slice of cake and work continued afterwards. I have no idea if these reports are true or not. I just think we need to see they are being treated equally, otherwise we'll never hear the end of it. I think Starmer has been very astute is saying he'll resign if he gets a FPN. If he doesn't get a FPN he's at least put more pressure on Johnson and if Johnson gets a 2nd then he's toast. |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on May 9, 2022 18:42:08 GMT
pete Agreed but on the remote chance we're wrong and he gets a fpn he should resign as leader forthwith. Would make the convict in number 10 look even more culpable and arrogant if he didn't follow. I agree and would go further. I don't believe Starmer broke the regs but he has to come out fighting now. He should make a statement to the effect that he is absolutely certain he hasn't broken any laws, but if he is given a FPT he will resign as leader immediately This will take pressure off him and put it back on Johnson. In the unlikely event he's given a FPT it is likely he would have to go anyway as the pressure to do do will be immense, so he's nothing to lose by taking the moral high ground. Looks like Labour Party HQ do read the UK polling report site, although as I posted this yesterday morning they were a bit tardy 😀 |
|
|
|
Post by pete on May 9, 2022 18:47:48 GMT
And who said Starmer isn't politically astute? Ok so he is taking a risk, but he and Rayner must be fairly confident that they were within the rules. But which ever way you look at this Starmer/Labour has turned the tables on the Tories.
He has established that Labour politicians are different and will act in line with what one should expect; he hasn't given the Durham police the easy option of just issuing a FPN to get the Tories and their press off their backs they will have to make sure the case against Starmer is watertight. Its put up or shut up. The police are going to have be very careful. They can't complain as they obviously bowed to Tory pressure to re-open the case and now find themselves in a bind.
If he does get a FPN Johnson is a gonna - in such a instance who ever replaces him (probably Nandy) would just be able to fling this at Johnson from now to the election (as well as getting the new kid on the block novelty bounce). I think a number of Tory backbenchers may see this as the last straw - if the LOTO has said he will do the decent/honourable thing and the PM doesn't that can only play badly, especially in the 'red wall'. I'm not sure Starmer is that politically astute. Was he not saying Johnson should resign before he'd even been investigated by the police? If so that leaves him open to hypocrite criticism and was a really stupid thing to do with the present bunch of lying grifters opposite, fairly obvious they'd use it to get him out. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,362
|
Post by Danny on May 9, 2022 19:04:22 GMT
I see Zelenskyy has once again been producing and distributing to the world, masterful propaganda about the plight of poor Ukraine. I'm not disagreeing he has right on his side, but this is a propaganda war and he is certainly winning in the west. It was very impressive. Was that a clip of the AN-225 unique cargo plane which the Russians destroyed, in the background?
There were of course clips and interviews from the Russian parade today, with locals supporting their government. I can't help wonder however to what extent this was a hand picked supportive crowd.
|
|
|
|
Post by steamdrivenandy on May 9, 2022 19:07:35 GMT
And who said Starmer isn't politically astute? Ok so he is taking a risk, but he and Rayner must be fairly confident that they were within the rules. But which ever way you look at this Starmer/Labour has turned the tables on the Tories.
He has established that Labour politicians are different and will act in line with what one should expect; he hasn't given the Durham police the easy option of just issuing a FPN to get the Tories and their press off their backs they will have to make sure the case against Starmer is watertight. Its put up or shut up. The police are going to have be very careful. They can't complain as they obviously bowed to Tory pressure to re-open the case and now find themselves in a bind.
If he does get a FPN Johnson is a gonna - in such a instance who ever replaces him (probably Nandy) would just be able to fling this at Johnson from now to the election (as well as getting the new kid on the block novelty bounce). I think a number of Tory backbenchers may see this as the last straw - if the LOTO has said he will do the decent/honourable thing and the PM doesn't that can only play badly, especially in the 'red wall'. I'm not sure Starmer is that politically astute. Was he not saying Johnson should resign before he'd even been investigated by the police? If so that leaves him open to hypocrite criticism and was a really stupid thing to do with the present bunch of lying grifters opposite, fairly obvious they'd use it to get him out. Johnson was suspected of multiple party going before the Police got involved, not just one case of having a can of beer. What sticks is the pledge to act honourably, rather than try and wriggle out of acting in a principled manner. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,721
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 9, 2022 19:15:11 GMT
Well I did say he was a bit edgy these days! (Here’s a recent instalment in the saga… youtu.be/J4XuAlpfcng)Nonetheless, I found his latest album as recommended by Old Southendian an interesting listen, not least because it was produced by Radiohead’s producer and it was interesting to hear what he did with it. |
|
|
|
Post by birdseye on May 9, 2022 19:18:43 GMT
Someone on Twitter saying that at Wednesday's PMQ's, Starmer's first question to Johnson should be "Do you think I should resign if I get fined?" Or it could be "now I am under investigation, should I resign?".
The world is going to hell in a handcart and all British politics is about is two guys having a bevvy or two during lockdown. What a sense of proportion!
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,362
|
Post by Danny on May 9, 2022 19:28:19 GMT
The world is going to hell in a handcart and all British politics is about is two guys having a bevvy or two during lockdown. What a sense of proportion!
Ah but there is more to it. The principle here which dare not be challenged is that there was ever any point to these restrictions. Neither side dare risk this becoming the question depite it being the obvious defence against resignation. At least, if it wouldn't automatically open up an even bigger resigning issue, why they supported the regulations at all. |
|
|
|
Post by RAF on May 9, 2022 19:45:44 GMT
The Tory client journalists are now fulminating that Starmer is putting unfair pressure on the Durham Police and undermining their investigation. He's definitely undermining the Tory Press's investigation. |
|
|
|
Post by RAF on May 9, 2022 19:56:47 GMT
And who said Starmer isn't politically astute? Ok so he is taking a risk, but he and Rayner must be fairly confident that they were within the rules. But which ever way you look at this Starmer/Labour has turned the tables on the Tories.
He has established that Labour politicians are different and will act in line with what one should expect; he hasn't given the Durham police the easy option of just issuing a FPN to get the Tories and their press off their backs they will have to make sure the case against Starmer is watertight. Its put up or shut up. The police are going to have be very careful. They can't complain as they obviously bowed to Tory pressure to re-open the case and now find themselves in a bind.
If he does get a FPN Johnson is a gonna - in such a instance who ever replaces him (probably Nandy) would just be able to fling this at Johnson from now to the election (as well as getting the new kid on the block novelty bounce). I think a number of Tory backbenchers may see this as the last straw - if the LOTO has said he will do the decent/honourable thing and the PM doesn't that can only play badly, especially in the 'red wall'. I'm not sure Starmer is that politically astute. Was he not saying Johnson should resign before he'd even been investigated by the police? If so that leaves him open to hypocrite criticism and was a really stupid thing to do with the present bunch of lying grifters opposite, fairly obvious they'd use it to get him out. Yeah he did say that but there was some context to it. The threshold to investigate breaches more than 6 months old was very high. Didn't the former Met Commissioner say that they only elected to investigate allegations of the most serious breaches of the Regs(based on the findings of the Sue Gray Report)? I suspect Durham Police are not investigating the Starmer event because it is potentially a serious breach of the Regs, but simply because they want to be seen to be fair to all sides. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 9, 2022 20:08:38 GMT
Someone on Twitter saying that at Wednesday's PMQ's, Starmer's first question to Johnson should be "Do you think I should resign if I get fined?" Or it could be "now I am under investigation, should I resign?".
The world is going to hell in a handcart and all British politics is about is two guys having a bevvy or two during lockdown. What a sense of proportion!
Remind me, did Starmer repeatedly lie to parliament about it? Has he been referred to the standards committee for investigation? I have always regarded that as equally as serious as the FPN. |
|
|
|
Post by peterbell on May 9, 2022 20:19:22 GMT
Johntel wrote "Well if you really want to know , I read that Starmer knew he was going to an organised event, the dinner lasted 1.5 hours, he had beer & curry, there was no work afterwards." Please tell me how that was against the rules. Election visits were allowed and obviously best organised properly with an itinery as was done. How do you know dinner lasted 1.5 hours. I suspect this itinery item is an approximation as to when the curry would arrive and when it would be finished and surely if they had worked all day there was nothing in the rules preventing them having a meal. From what I hear, there was work afterwards - as several politicians have said, in these situations you are working virtually every waking hour. If any of these situations is unacceptable, then I would suggest that electioneering should have been banned or perhaps even elections held in abeyance. IMO the whole business is an attempt to smear Starmer without any valid reason. |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 9, 2022 20:47:30 GMT
Amusing at one level but should a pollster invent a fictional controversy naming an actual politician?
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 9, 2022 20:59:21 GMT
Amusing at one level but should a pollster invent a fictional controversy naming an actual politician? Are we certain Ed Davey isn't fictional? I find is hard to keep track of all the Lib Dem leaders - 5 in 7 years. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 9, 2022 21:08:26 GMT
Johntel wrote "Well if you really want to know  , I read that Starmer knew he was going to an organised event, the dinner lasted 1.5 hours, he had beer & curry, there was no work afterwards." Please tell me how that was against the rules. Election visits were allowed and obviously best organised properly with an itinery as was done. How do you know dinner lasted 1.5 hours. I suspect this itinery item is an approximation as to when the curry would arrive and when it would be finished and surely if they had worked all day there was nothing in the rules preventing them having a meal. From what I hear, there was work afterwards - as several politicians have said, in these situations you are working virtually every waking hour. If any of these situations is unacceptable, then I would suggest that electioneering should have been banned or perhaps even elections held in abeyance. IMO the whole business is an attempt to smear Starmer without any valid reason.
[1] There may have been similar exceptions in the separate legislation in Scotland, Wales and NI for all I know - but the actual allegations of communal boozing which might provoke that question are, thus far, limited to English politicians. |
|
|
|
Post by Old Southendian on May 9, 2022 21:10:03 GMT
Nonetheless, I found his latest album as recommended by Old Southendian an interesting listen, not least because it was produced by Radiohead’s producer and it was interesting to hear what he did with it. Agreed, without Nigel Godrich it would probably have been another self-indulgent mess like much of the rest of his work. With Nigel Godrich, it's at least a musically interesting and coherent piece of self-indulgence. |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 9, 2022 21:20:21 GMT
So the outraged student ( actually it seems former student at the time) who filmed Starmer at his work event turns out to be the son of far right columnist James Delingpole.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,638
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 9, 2022 21:21:29 GMT
peterbell Slight problem with this daily heil chain of events. The Labour party say they are in a position to prove with records that work continued until 1am
|
|
|
|
Post by Old Southendian on May 9, 2022 21:27:07 GMT
The Tory client journalists are now fulminating that Starmer is putting unfair pressure on the Durham Police and undermining their investigation. There's some truth in that, but again, it's little different to the pressure put onto the Metropolitan police over 10 Downing Street. Their findings could/should really be a resigning matter for Johnson too, the fact that he has so little integrity and so won't resign is not something that should influence their investigations.
I do agree that Sunak seems to be a bit hard done by. Having said that, I haven't seen laid out the exact rules in place during the Durham event vs the Birthday event. No doubt I could dig and find out, but I can't be bothered. They happened (I assume) at quite different times and in different circumstances, so the rules can be quite different, though no doubt that subtlety will get lost in much of the press coverage.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,638
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 9, 2022 21:37:08 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 9, 2022 21:45:14 GMT
steamdrivenandy - "For the avoidance of doubt and to provide a proper context for the '500', is your 'we' a UK 'we' or a Scottish 'we'?" Well now you've gone and made me look up the figures. It was actually much worse than I thought. The figures I recalled which led me to state that there were 500 admissions a week of children with covid were only for England (see here under 'Additional Information' - www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ ). The numbers were at times also much higher than 500 a week. For example, from March 17 - 23rd 2022 there were 451 admissions for under 5s alone, with another 247 for the 6 - 17 cohort. The next seven days gave 474 and 238 respectively, so England had pretty much hit 500 admissions a week for toddlers alone. I did post about these numbers at the time, because frankly I thought it was shocking that so many tiny tots were being hospitalised and no one seemed to give a shit. I'm not surprised that there are posters on here who can't believe the figures, because I think Omicron has given us a kind of national dementia, where we are blinded to the extent of the impacts on children, long covid etc etc.
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 9, 2022 21:46:49 GMT
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button>
(I am simply applying your rule that anything more than 2 years old must not be quoted on this site.) |
|
|
|
Post by johntel on May 9, 2022 21:47:18 GMT
So now it seems to be coming out that Durham police have different criteria for issuing FPNs than the Met. Labour spokesperson on Newsnight saying that he won't resign if he is only found to have broken lockdown rules but doesn't get a fine (as with Dominic Cummings).I can't see them getting away with this line.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 9, 2022 21:50:13 GMT
A reasonable question might be " Why, during strict covid lockdown, did politicians in England [1] make exceptions to the rules for themselves (and use them), which were not available to those mourning the recently deceased etc etc?" One rule for them ...
[1] There may have been similar exceptions in the separate legislation in Scotland, Wales and NI for all I know - but the actual allegations of communal boozing which might provoke that question are, thus far, limited to English politicians. Not boozing certainly, but Margaret Ferrier is the only MP so far to actually be arrested and charged with "culpable and reckless conduct" in connection with Covid breaches. Then there was John Swinney having to apologise for breaching the regulations while campaigning (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinney-apologises-after-deleting-23817647) and Nicola Sturgeon's recent faux pas with not wearing a face mask in a shop. I don't mention these to suggest the SNP has a particular issue here, just that the rules varied a lot, people are human and mistakes were made and this was clearly not confined to England. The culture at No. 10 was something else again, and seriously compounded for me by all the continuous lying inside and outside parliament. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,721
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 9, 2022 21:54:43 GMT
Nonetheless, I found his latest album as recommended by Old Southendian an interesting listen, not least because it was produced by Radiohead’s producer and it was interesting to hear what he did with it. Agreed, without Nigel Godrich it would probably have been another self-indulgent mess like much of the rest of his work. With Nigel Godrich, it's at least a musically interesting and coherent piece of self-indulgence. Yes I read up a bit about the album after your suggestion and it seems he had quite a bit of artistic licence. From wiki:
“Though Waters had not heard Godrich's work with Radiohead, they got on well and discussed working together.[3] Godrich, a fan of Waters' work with Pink Floyd, was frank with Waters, telling him he found some of his solo work "unlistenable". However, he was reassured that Waters "really still had it" after hearing his demo of "Déjà Vu".[4]
Godrich wanted to create a pared-back album to showcase Waters "the poet".[4] He felt Waters' creativity had been invigorated by the Wall Live tour, and that his role as producer was "to push him a little bit".[4] He encouraged Waters to make a concise record, reminding him that Pink Floyd's 1973 album The Dark Side of the Moon is only 43 minutes long.[3] Unlike most of Waters' work, Waters did not co-produce the record; he said: "[Godrich] did a brilliant job ... I sat on my hands with lips zipped. You've rented this dog, let it work."[5] Godrich used tape loops and found sounds extensively to make the album's segues. He is also credited for arrangement, sound collages, keyboards, guitar, and mixing.[6]”(Though the “rented dog” comment puts one in mind of Waters’ attitude to other producers, and how when Ezrin was producing The Wall, Waters supposedly distributed some badges that said “NOPE”, which stood for “No Points Ezrin”, as Ezrin wasn’t getting so much in the way of royalties). |
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 9, 2022 21:59:09 GMT
For those interested, this is the Guardian story detailing the proof Labour have that work carried on after 10pm - www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/09/labour-says-can-prove-starmer-team-worked-past-1am-beergate-nightIt seems really rather clear cut that the 'event' was in fact a short stop for refreshments towards the end of a very long working day. Reading the article, my mind drifted back to Nadine Dorries' quip about 'no one works after 10pm'. Perhaps not in your shoddy, detail free, drifting mess of a party Nadine, but Labour and Keir Starmer are clearly willing to put in the hours. |
|
|
|
Post by EmCat on May 9, 2022 22:00:01 GMT
I think that the election law should be changed - any election result with less than 50% turnout in a ward (council elections) or constituency (national) should be made invalid for that unit and repeated (maybe to infinity ...) I'd go further - any winning candidate who doesn't get 50% of the electorate should not be considered to have won. If it is good enough for Trade Union strike ballots, then it is good enough for the elected representatives. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 9, 2022 22:09:09 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 9, 2022 22:13:39 GMT
Starmer has held a news conference and repeated that he has always believed in integrity, was not prepared to allow some people to imply all politicians are the same. He reiterated that no rules have bèn broken but if he is issued with a fan then he will step down. Angela Raynor has also issued a similar statement. The strategy appears twofold. Claim the moral high ground, less vacated more never occupied by Johnson, and calculate that no FPN will be forthcoming. It's a big personal gamble by Starmer because if his calculation his wrong, then he was in effect signing his own political death certificate this afternoon. Rayner too. They're either high stake rollers (Starmer???) or pretty confident that no laws were broken and Durham Police will exonerate them. I'd say the latter. What might be quite cute about the strategy is that it allows Starmer to put on a virtual virtue demonstration. Look at me, he's saying, I'm committing to you all that I will do the decent thing in the very unlikely event of me being found to have done something wrong. Which I haven't. Just saying, that's all. A sort of pain free non-resignation, contrasting himself to Johnson. It'll be interesting to see the next few polls, particularly Starmer's personal ratings. My first reaction was to feel sorry for the Durham police. They have been put in the position of having to decide if the Labour leader (and possibly the Conservative leader) steps down. Therefore potentially having to decide whether we have a new Prime Minister. It's quite wrong to put the police in this situation. Let's hope they can try to ignore the political impact and just evaluate the facts on a legal basis. I don't care about the result, but think Starmer should have said he would wait for the verdict before commenting. What he has done is pure political opportunism and is very unfair to the police. |
|
, I read that Starmer knew he was going to an organised event, the dinner lasted 1.5 hours, he had beer & curry, there was no work afterwards.
, I read that Starmer knew he was going to an organised event, the dinner lasted 1.5 hours, he had beer & curry, there was no work afterwards."
