|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2022 6:49:42 GMT
graham/eor
You're right; May 2014 was the last time the councils re-contested in May 2018 were last contested. I could claim that my date of 2015 was a typo but that would be a poor defence of what was a lazy stab at a date without checking the facts first.
This sort of journalism could get me a job on the Sun news desk if I'm not careful!
|
|
|
|
Post by moby on May 4, 2022 6:51:08 GMT
birdseye This government is the only one in my lifetime as far as I'm aware to attempt to deliberately divide and antagonise British society for narrow, short term electoral gain and to actively seek to undermine the rule of law and ignore precedent. In a nation with an unwritten constitution that's very dangerous. It's also the first, as far as I'm aware, to remove, via Brexit, a whole layer of established rights that citizens had previously enjoyed. You obviously didn't live in a rural area when townie Banks' law to ban fox hunting was pushed through. Very divisive times. Many of us countryside dwellers hate foxhunting. To present it as a townie v countryside dweller issue is simplistic. |
|
|
|
Post by jib on May 4, 2022 6:52:05 GMT
You obviously didn't live in a rural area when townie Banks' law to ban fox hunting was pushed through. Very divisive times. Yes, the removal of the right to torture wild animals for sport must have been a real blow. Others would call it cultural progress I didn't offer an opinion on it, but we can trust you to try and plant yourself on the highest moral ground as per usual. It just comes so naturally for you. |
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on May 4, 2022 6:59:58 GMT
As this is a polling site something I have taken from a press report re Starmer and so called Beergate.
''In January, a YouGov poll question about whether Starmer “generally did or did not follow lockdown rules” found 40% believed the Labour party did and 28% did not. The same question asked again on Tuesday found that 28% still did not think so – but that 42% now did. In contrast, 70% of people now think Johnson generally did not follow the rules.''
I think that 28% would be hard core Tory Party supporters in the main. Gives an indication of their floor perhaps.
Lots of DKs though re Labour/Starmer which is why I guess the DM and some Tories still pursuing.
|
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 4, 2022 7:00:44 GMT
JohnCThe Roe v Wade controversy shows the danger of an ossified, written constitution largely drawn up on the basis of 18th principles which leads to extreme partisan judges having the power to define political parameters in the the 21st century. It seems that the Alito draft judgment will also strike down other Supreme Court judgments which is highly likely to lead to a reversal of LGBT rights including same sex marriage, protection against employment discrimination etc. The attack on LGBT people which has already begun in some states will certainly accelerate. There are already reports that anti-abortion states are planning legislation which will seek to restrict the legal right of their citizens to travel to have abortions in states or countries where it will be legal. We should now certainly expect the move against transgender people in the UK to extend more than it already has to gay people and in time to womens rights as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on May 4, 2022 7:13:24 GMT
Yes, the removal of the right to torture wild animals for sport must have been a real blow. Others would call it cultural progress I didn't offer an opinion on it, but we can trust you to try and plant yourself on the highest moral ground as per usual. It just comes so naturally for you. To be honest I think it's quite low lying moral high ground in the sense that most people agree that tearing a living creature apart for fun is horrifying ( can anyone back me up with polling data  ? Even the true blue Tory Ann Widdecoombe would agree. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,669
|
Post by steve on May 4, 2022 7:18:46 GMT
@jimjam
Correct thanks that's what I mean to say.
|
|
|
|
Post by moby on May 4, 2022 7:23:43 GMT
Winning a factional battle within their party is more important to them than winning power. That applies more to the Right of the party, surely? As proven at last election. And Corbyn got the votes of existing members too, not just new joiners. Everyone I know within my PLP supported the Party despite Corbyn. I dont accept the 'betrayal, stabbed in the back' conspiracy theory. There were insiders who wanted him gone but that does not translate into an 80 seat loss. Like I said look at at the Labour Party facebook site today and see where the hate is coming from. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,669
|
Post by steve on May 4, 2022 7:25:04 GMT
hireton Also shows the failings of political appointments where candidates for scotus can lie during selection hearings with impunity. The three trump appointed justices all stated that Roe was settled law under the 14th amendment ,they clearly lied, the consequences for them are of course zero, the consequences for hundreds of thousands of women could of course be huge. If they lied about this at selection what over lies did they tell. Brett Kavanaugh allegations of rape come to mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by EmCat on May 4, 2022 7:26:21 GMT
Black civil rights and LGBT rights will be next up for removal. I've 'liked' quite a few of your posts lately, but this is utter fantasy. Unfortunately, rolling back of all other rights that US citizens have won over the past century is not fantasy. It is their stated goal. It has been their stated goal for years. The absolutists hate being told to stop being reprehensible bigots. "American Taliban" is exactly the correct way to describe these people. |
|
|
|
Post by shevii on May 4, 2022 7:34:30 GMT
Those who think their purist partisan views are more relevant than achieving power will continue to be enablers of Tory government. Nice to see you having a go at Starmer for once :-) |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,669
|
Post by steve on May 4, 2022 7:35:52 GMT
moby I don't "hate" Corbyn but I do consider him totally unsuitable for high office and unsuitable to a lesser extent as a Labour mp because of his off stated objections to party policy. Corbyn and McDonnell remain the most disloyal Labour mps in terms of voting history ever. During the last Labour government Corbyn voted against the Labour government 428 times and over 500 times against Labour motions in total. Emotive language appears to be a feature of his supporters
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,133
|
Post by domjg on May 4, 2022 7:36:33 GMT
re Star Wars day, I don't remember Yoda having a lisp |
|
|
|
Post by moby on May 4, 2022 7:40:17 GMT
The internal rifts caused within the Labour Party were crucial to what happened though. The majority of Labour MPs didn't want him as leader and didn't respect him. They were held hostage by a membership, many of whom just signed up to get him elected. That was never going to work. A new party was being created within a party. The Labour Party is a parliamentary party invented to win elections and change things by gaining power. It is not a mass movement fermenting change through revolution. If you want that, join the Socialist Workers. I never accepted him simply because I didn't rate him. he was a campaigner not a leader. He was always only going to represent a faction. He was always going to be vulnerable to the puerile nonsense but rather effective 'reds under the beds' mantra voiced by birdseye. How was a person who couldn't even unite his party unite the country? As for letting it go and winning elections ....look at Labour Party Facebook pages today just before the election....every issue raised to attack the tories is buried under a deluge of vitriol directed towards the traitorous 'Keith'. These people don't care about partygate, they care about the Forde report. Winning a factional battle within their party is more important to them than winning power. I hear what you say but does that mean that Starmer is failing to unite the party too? Is there a labour potential leader who you think might be able to unite the factions? He's struggling I agree but deserves his chance. My main point though is Corbyn was always going to split the party and without the backing of the MP's his chances were negligible. The euphoria of the membership at his victory gave rise to false expectations. A shadow cabinet with Richard Burgon and Diane Abbott in it was never going to take us to victory. I went to see Andy Burnham speak in Camden, he was endorsed by the then new MP Starmer during the first leadership campaign. He has the charisma Starmer lacks and I voted for him but I am still hoping Starmer turns into an Attlee. |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on May 4, 2022 7:40:40 GMT
re Star Wars day, I don't remember Yoda having a lisp Terrible grammar though 😉 |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,669
|
Post by steve on May 4, 2022 7:44:09 GMT
shevii No idea what you are talking about there Starmer clearly isn't a purist.. However the reason I am still a lib dem member is primarily because of Starmer's position on brexit. That being said it's not remotely likely to see a lib dem led government and a Starmer led government would be an order of magnitude better than the current shambles. With very few exceptions a Labour government led by any of the current Labour mps would be a marked improvement. Mr Corbyn is of course not currently a Labour MP but has had his membership of the Labour party reinstated.
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,133
|
Post by domjg on May 4, 2022 7:44:32 GMT
The internal rifts caused within the Labour Party were crucial to what happened though. The majority of Labour MPs didn't want him as leader and didn't respect him. They were held hostage by a membership, many of whom just signed up to get him elected. That was never going to work. A new party was being created within a party. The Labour Party is a parliamentary party invented to win elections and change things by gaining power. It is not a mass movement fermenting change through revolution. If you want that, join the Socialist Workers. I never accepted him simply because I didn't rate him. he was a campaigner not a leader. He was always only going to represent a faction. He was always going to be vulnerable to the puerile nonsense but rather effective 'reds under the beds' mantra voiced by birdseye. How was a person who couldn't even unite his party unite the country? As for letting it go and winning elections ....look at Labour Party Facebook pages today just before the election....every issue raised to attack the tories is buried under a deluge of vitriol directed towards the traitorous 'Keith'. These people don't care about partygate, they care about the Forde report. Winning a factional battle within their party is more important to them than winning power. I hear what you say but does that mean that Starmer is failing to unite the party too? Is there a labour potential leader who you think might be able to unite the factions? It doesn't really matter from what I understand from others (no personal experience) as these people are small in number now and are good at making social media noise but tend to be lacking in offering practical support. Voters are not small in number. |
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2022 7:53:17 GMT
That applies more to the Right of the party, surely? As proven at last election. And Corbyn got the votes of existing members too, not just new joiners. Everyone I know within my PLP supported the Party despite Corbyn. I dont accept the 'betrayal, stabbed in the back' conspiracy theory. There were insiders who wanted him gone but that does not translate into an 80 seat loss. Like I said look at at the Labour Party facebook site today and see where the hate is coming from. I agree with a lot of what you say but I'd counsel caution about overplaying the social media hostility towards Starmer within the party. It's there, certainly, but its noise far outweighs its number or influence. My sense is that the real Labour Party, including all its traditional wings, are behind Starmer and united in their desire to remove the Tories from power. That includes the majority of the membership too. Of course, and rightly so, there will be internal pressures and debates about how fast or how radical the leadership should go, but the real vitriol is confined to those remaining members of what was, it had to be said, a Corbynite cult. Those who slew the Messiah will be condemned for the remainder of their days. Fire and brimstone must rain upon their heathen heads and they must never sleep easily again. I'd be very surprised if any of this dwindling faction were traditional or habitual Labour supporters before Corbyn came down and went amongst them. Interestingly, on this admittedly very unrepresentative forum, the most ardent criticism of Starmer tends to come from people who don't vote for the party traditionally and often actually vote for candidates and parties fighting Labour at elections. They appear to have only ever flirted with Labour when Corbyn was leader. A social democratic Labour holds no attractions for them. That's fine, but it's silly to think that this criticism is coming from what I'd describe as within the real Labour Party |
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 8:49:53 GMT
Hi @ crossbat11 That's fine, but it's silly to think that this criticism is coming from what I'd describe as within the real Labour PartyWell the real Labour party stood by Corbyn even when many knew it was a lost cause in '19. When he was first elected leader many thought (me included at the time) the party was signing its own electoral suicide note, but he seemed to prove that wrong in '17, and up to the point Johnson became leader was at parity in the polls with May (both slumped from circa 40% to circa 20% due to the Brexit fiasco in the Commons). He was subjected to one of the most ferocious and sustained character assassination in modern political history and unable to sustain Labours '17 coalition of remain and leave voters to'19, thus ultimately seeming to by default justify the original assessment of many. I for one thought he was more suited to the role of PM than Johnson. Personally I think Labour is in danger of learning the wrong lessons from the last 10 years, and alienating the Left and simply re-turning to the policy position of Blair will prove counter-productive. For one, Blair had an appeal to voters that KS just doesn't have - he cant forgo the need to give the left some vision of a better more equitable society. Attlee was able to merge the promise of a better society with a business like serious in demeaner in appealing to voters.
What I do find hard to swallow, especially from LD supporters who continue to do it for obvious political reasons, is blaming Corbyn for Brexit. He comes way down the list of who is responsible. So if you want someone/groups to blameTop 10 of Those responsible for Brexit:
1) Those who voted to Leave
2) Cameron (for calling the ref in the first place and then leading a piss poor remain campaign)
3) Rupert Murdoch
4) Johnson
5) Rothermere
6) Nigel Farage
7) The Tory Party
8) Dominic Cummings
9) Jo Swinson* - who gave Johnson his election and attempted to use the '19 election to dislodge Labour as the main opposition party with the good old LD slogan of 'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for another Tory Government'.
10) Nicola Sturgeon - as above gave Johnson his election and was motivated by desire to ensure SNP electoral dominance North of the boarder and use Brexit as means to further drive for Independence
I could go on but Corbyn wouldn't even get in the top 50 let alone 10.
*her tactics of attacking Labour from the start, which helped split the anti-Tory vote was clear and proved counter-productive.
|
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on May 4, 2022 9:14:10 GMT
'How Labour broke Liverpool' unherd.com/2022/05/how-labour-broke-liverpool/ an article by David Jeffery, a lecturer in British Politics at the University of Liverpool. I knew about the corruption in Liverpool politics, but I never realised just how bad it was, even after the removal of Joe Anderson. One also has to ask, why did Labour HQ, and by extension Keir Starmer, restart the selection process for Mayor only after removing the most-experienced candidates. Obviously they know something that the public doesn't, but what is it? |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on May 4, 2022 9:17:34 GMT
Hi @ crossbat11 That's fine, but it's silly to think that this criticism is coming from what I'd describe as within the real Labour PartyWell the real Labour party stood by Corbyn even when many knew it was a lost cause in '19. When he was first elected leader many thought (me included at the time) the party was signing its own electoral suicide note, but he seemed to prove that wrong in '17, and up to the point Johnson became leader was at parity in the polls with May (both slumped from circa 40% to circa 20% due to the Brexit fiasco in the Commons). He was subjected to one of the most ferocious and sustained character assassination in modern political history and unable to sustain Labours '17 coalition of remain and leave voters to'19, thus ultimately seeming to by default justify the original assessment of many. I for one thought he was more suited to the role of PM than Johnson. Personally I think Labour is in danger of learning the wrong lessons from the last 10 years, and alienating the Left and simply re-turning to the policy position of Blair will prove counter-productive. For one, Blair had an appeal to voters that KS just doesn't have - he cant forgo the need to give the left some vision of a better more equitable society. Attlee was able to merge the promise of a better society with a business like serious in demeaner in appealing to voters.
What I do find hard to swallow, especially from LD supporters who continue to do it for obvious political reasons, is blaming Corbyn for Brexit. He comes way down the list of who is responsible. So if you want someone/groups to blameTop 10 of Those responsible for Brexit:
1) Those who voted to Leave
2) Cameron (for calling the ref in the first place and then leading a piss poor remain campaign)
3) Rupert Murdoch
4) Johnson
5) Rothermere
6) Nigel Farage
7) The Tory Party
8) Dominic Cummings
9) Jo Swinson* - who gave Johnson his election and attempted to use the '19 election to dislodge Labour as the main opposition party with the good old LD slogan of 'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for another Tory Government'.
10) Nicola Sturgeon - as above gave Johnson his election and was motivated by desire to ensure SNP electoral dominance North of the boarder and use Brexit as means to further drive for Independence
I could go on but Corbyn wouldn't even get in the top 50 let alone 10.
*her tactics of attacking Labour from the start, which helped split the anti-Tory vote was clear and proved counter-productive. Agree , apart from ascribing blame to Nicola, but spot on about those damned tricky Yellow Tories  |
|
lens
Member
Posts: 864
Member is Online
|
Post by lens on May 4, 2022 9:19:50 GMT
The evidence of mask efficacy is mountainous. It's an extremely ignorant or foolish thing to try to pretend that masks don't work. Yet there is still no comment about why Scotland has fared far worse than England, despite mandated mask use in the former for months? Still no comment about the (large) study I linked to finding mask mandates in schools made little difference? I say again - these are situations in the real world. If masks make a worthwhile difference, why did schools implementing such a policy not see a marked drop in case rates compared to the others? It's as good a real world control trial as you're ever likely to get. It's also important to remember that masks are not perfect, and they are not practical in every circumstance. To my knowledge, no one has yet invented an effective face mask that can be worn while drinking in a pub, for example. However, to denigrate the use of masks as an effective public health measure because they aren't 100% effective is a particularly foolish avenue to go down. No, because it's not a case of "they're not 100% effective" (implying maybe 80-90%) - it's a case of any effectiveness being very, very low in general use. I already said that they may have a big part to play in clinical use - especially when worn by trained professionals, with protocols for safe removal etc. That's a world different from enforcing "wear some sort of mask" in such as shops or schools. Maybe in the pre-vaccination period it made sense to clutch at every little straw that may make SOME difference, however tiny, but post vaccination, why bother? If you're vaccinated and in decent health, Covid is unlikely to be more than a bad cold/mild flu nowadays - and if I had an underlying condition I wouldn't trust masks to keep me safe. Even more stupid was the concept that it was fine to be in a pub with no mask all night, but one had to be worn to go to the toilet. Far more sensible to concentrate efforts on such as decent ventilation. |
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 9:26:56 GMT
Hi @ thylacine Agree , apart from ascribing blame to Nicola, but spot on about those damned tricky Yellow Tories  Ok I may be being a bit harsh in including her in the top 10 - but in how it all panned out she is higher in the list than Corbyn for the reason I gave. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,133
|
Post by domjg on May 4, 2022 9:28:25 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter "I for one thought he was more suited to the role of PM than Johnson" - Not exactly a ringing endorsement! A bit like saying who is best suited to debug my program, the baker or the candlestick maker? I know Labour under Corbyn got over 40% in 2017 but in that election Corbyn also served as a huge motivator to come out and vote to the Tory inclined and gave May a very high percentage of the vote as well.
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,418
|
Post by neilj on May 4, 2022 9:32:05 GMT
So out of touch
'Environment Secretary George Eustice suggested households should switch to cheaper alternatives to help ‘manage’ their budgets'
Does he not realise that people struggling to make ends meet switched to value products a long time ago. Does he think they are all on the Tescos finest range and hadn't realised cheaperfood existed?
Patronising in the extreme and underlines how far the current Government is from the reality of mzny people in todays UK.
|
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 9:45:21 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter "I for one thought he was more suited to the role of PM than Johnson" - Not exactly a ringing endorsement! A bit like saying who is best suited to debug my program, the baker or the candlestick maker? I know Labour under Corbyn got over 40% in 2017 but in that election Corbyn also served as a huge motivator to come out and vote to the Tory inclined and gave May a very high percentage of the vote as well. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 9:50:13 GMT
|
|
lens
Member
Posts: 864
Member is Online
|
Post by lens on May 4, 2022 9:53:07 GMT
lens I find it so easy to wear a mask, I'm now so used to it. It undoubtedly makes some difference if in part only to reassure the vulnerable and anxious when they see you're wearing one. I honestly have no idea why some see mask wearing in public, indoor spaces as such an onerous imposition? Maybe you can enlighten me? I understand they can make some feel claustrophobic. Is that it? Fair question, and if you find it "so easy" I can only assume you are not hard of hearing or wear glasses! Quite apart from the irritation there used to be of making sure you had one when going out. I've also heard from much younger people that in some cases it's exacerbated facial skin problems. (Wearing one once a week for an hour in a supermarket whilst shopping may be one thing - wearing it for a 10 hour shift continuously every working day is quite another.) You say you feel it helps to "reassure the vulnerable and anxious". I wonder. I know of only one person (early on in the pandemic) who has directly suffered severe life changing effects due directly to Covid - and is lucky to be alive. But I know of quite a few (mainly living alone, and typically not needing to leave home for work) who are showing various degrees of mental illness and especially anxiety. Maybe it's worth a study into how much being surrounded by masked figures may aggravate such tendencies? It's hardly a coincidence that in the world of cinema masked faces are typically used to enhance a feeling of menace. (And in the real world, Covid masks must have been a godsend to bank robbers and other criminals to avoid CCTV!! ) At the very least, the whole mask business has made me realise how important non-verbal communication is. I confess to some amusement about a couple of people I know in the anxious category who were very "mask conscious", but eventually caught Covid and experienced little more than cold like symptoms - and have now ditched mask wearing altogether. I strongly suspect that they realised (and yes, largely down to vaccines) that the reality was far less a problem than the anticipation, and having "a cold" for a few days was worth it for their mental health. I for one would be prepared to accept this "onerous imposition" if I felt it would make a meaningful difference. But the evidence is it doesn't, not in such as shops, schools etc anyway. (I'll say again - clinical situations, with strict protocols, may be a different matter.) |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 4, 2022 9:54:30 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter"10) Nicola Sturgeon - as above gave Johnson his election and was motivated by desire to ensure SNP electoral dominance North of the boarder and use Brexit as means to further drive for Independe" You mean the Nicola Sturgeon who consistently campaigned against Brexit, assisted in delivering a 62% vote for Remain in Scotland and whose Government proposed (with Scottish Parliament support) after the referendum that the UK stay in the Single Market? You might also benefit from reading the HoC briefing note I linked to as I cannot see from that how Nicola Sturgeon "gave Johnson his election". What do think should have happened after the HoC approved Johnson's Withdrawal Agreement on 22 October 2019?
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2022 9:56:23 GMT
lululemon
I agree with the bit of your post about Brexit culpability rankings, although I was disappointed with Labour's tactics as the HM Opposition during the debacle. Corbyn as leader has to carry some of the can although, as you say, there were many worse villains of the piece involved. Your list is a good one.
On Corbyn, I'm thinking we've rehearsed all our arguments on him and, as you've no doubt read, I've pledged my troth. I'm going to have to disappoint you by saying I have a view about him and his leadership that is not flattering and very unlikely to be changed.
The one part of your argument I'm least convinced about, and I'm aware it's one often made in Corbyn's defence, is that he was the subject of an unprecedented media personal onslaught and, linked to that, if only he'd had a good PR/Communications adviser, he'd have been OK. I'm not sure he endured much worse right wing media treatment than most previous Labour leaders, even latter day Blair and Brown. Miliband was monstered every bit as much as Corbyn. I think this defence is largely self-serving, to be honest. Besides, if his communications operation was so inept, whose fault ultimately was that? I thought many of his forays into, and dealings with, the media were often cringe-making.
|
|
? Even the true blue Tory Ann Widdecoombe would agree.
