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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 12:49:10 GMT
I agree with you but most people have THEIR own moral code (which might differ depending on some of factors you listed) that they try to live by and when they don't most feel at least a twinge of guilt. Johnson isn't IMmoral. That suggests he chooses not to behave in a way that is moral by his own code. Johnson is Amoral - he simply doesn't recognise any moral code. Therefore he feels no guilt. We've seen that time and time again. To be fair Barbara, many people who seek power could be defined as amoral. Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and David Cameron spring to mind. Whilst I think Theresa May and Gordon Brown had some sort of moral compass which they sometimes failed to live by, as most of us do. That's a fascinating and relevant epistemological problem. If moral (codes) are chosen or ignored, then it is purely subjective, and hence nothing can be said about. But it is not the case. Moral is a.derivative of values, values are derivative of needs. It is possible that one doesn't know what his needs are, but it is not possible not to have needs. And as needs are objective, so moral is objective just filtered through the individual's mind - hence one can act against his moral code (just as one can act against his values). While already I. Kant had some comments on it, it was really the 60s and 70s when it got more or less settled in philosophy (of ethics). Although Enron is an extreme example, it is useful for looking at the subjective and objective aspects of moral. When traders were recruited (mainly from leading business schools), they had to do a psychometric test. Those candidates were chosen whose moral were ambivalent (so not strong in any of the directions). You can imagine what sort of action it triggered among them when the rule was that if the trader performed better than his colleagues, he could move his desk closer to the bosses (and obviously away if he performed less well). They didn't use any absolute only relative performance indicators. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 14, 2022 12:55:03 GMT
Just because we've spent several sheds of money on covid doesn't mean austerity has gone away though. Maybe the spending limitations aren't so restrictive but are all the facilities and services reduced and cut under austerity back up and running as they were beforehand? You can argue austerity is no longer policy but its effects are still with us and will be for generations, both in things we no longer have and in things that we would've had that were never developed. "its effects are still with us and will be for generations, both in things we no longer have and in things that we would've had that were never developed" First the Tories gave us austerity then they gave us Brexit both of which lead to the result you so eloquently describe above! God bless 'em.. I'd also suggest that austerity has led to a less law abiding, less caring, more exploitative population. There haven't been the staff or the budgets to enforce rules and regulations as they should be, letting exploitative chancers get away with stuff they shouldn't do. A general lack of care for the things we should be concerned about that added together make life more pleasant for all, not just a wealthy few. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 12:56:51 GMT
Patel having a not too subtle dig at Sunak
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 13:10:21 GMT
I am quite suspicious of the interpretation of the data (not the data) . The largest contributor to the growth was health and social care followed by retail. Those sectors that "normally" contribute to growth were either neutral or actually reduced growth. Interpretation is for the individual. I note GDP data seems to be important to some folks when it 'suits' the agenda and then 'suspicious' when it is does not fit the agenda. Very similar to polling info which some folks find 'suspicious' when the findings don't suit the agenda but trusted and promoted when it does!  My2c: We've bounced back better than some (eg Spain), worse than others (eg Scandis and US). Link is fairly recent but doesn't include most recent data or the impact of most recent lockdowns (enforced in some countries, although England will take a modest hit from 'voluntary' behavioural adjustment) www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/which-economies-have-done-best-and-worst-during-the-pandemic/21806917GDP data alone is of very limited value and the main thread is not the place for broader discussion but the Global Energy/Cost of Living Crisis is.. err... Global! Although some folks will obviously blame their own govt, especially if it suits their 'agenda'! US inflation recently hit 7% Prices in the US are rising at their fastest rate in almost 40 years, with inflation up 7% year-on-year in Decemberwww.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59969864 |
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Post by turk on Jan 14, 2022 13:12:24 GMT
Blimey Chinese spy gives over half a million to Labour MP wonder what he had to do for that sort of money ,still at least he didn’t attend any parties that would have been a lot more worrying.
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hireton
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Post by hireton on Jan 14, 2022 13:12:37 GMT
Well, off for the day now. Mrs H and I are taking the bus to Tewkesbury to spend some time in that historic town (War of the Roses decider took place there. Farewell House of Lancaster. You battled hard but in vain.) Wonderful crisp and frosty morning here in the glorious Vale of Evesham in the shadow of the Housman immortalised Bredon Hill It will be a historic day for me too. I turned 66 two weeks ago and it will be my first use of my pensioners free bus pass. I'll have to shell out for Mrs H though. When we take some lunch in one of Tewkesbury's many superb half timbered old pubs, I shall raise a glass and propose a toast to those two old rascals, Gordon and Tony. My wife, once a Tory now a Labour voter, will join me too, no doubt. How many of the locals here in Toryland will join me though, I'm not so sure. I'll probably to be turfed out, but what the hell. Let's see what reaction I get. I like doing these sorts of things. Once found a Harold Wilson fan in a Stratford pub of all places. I proposed a toast to him in the Black Swan (Dirty Duck)on the day he would have celebrated his 100th birthday. Mixed reaction, but a few surprising fellow toasters. Not quite All for Harold, but a few were. So, good on you (Sir) Tony and Gordon. Both Mrs H and I have still got some time for you, even if few others have. Good day one and all. Henry Tudor - Earl of Richmond, great great grandson of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster - might think Bosworth was the decider. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 13:15:47 GMT
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Post by catfuzz on Jan 14, 2022 13:16:04 GMT
The Tories didn’t used to need to do this, while the Lib Dems were splitting Labour’s vote. Since people found out about the Lib Dems though, it possibly put more pressure on Tories to at least “appear” a bit more left wing. I have wondered in recent years (and JRM’s recent comments on Scot CON’s sort of confirms this) whether a similar tactic is employed with CON’s antagonism to the SNP. Is it to foster an anti-English sentiment to help prop up the SNP, thus denying Labour these seats? |
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Post by bardin1 on Jan 14, 2022 13:19:39 GMT
I don't think she'll exonerate or convict him, or anybody else. She'll just lay out the facts and let everybody come to their own conclusions. It's just too much of a disputed political hot potato for a civil servant to be seen to be judge and jury on a serving PM. the review will be done but it won't make a bit of difference either way. That's why the 'wait and see' line is so patently a means of buying time. Thinking about it any other leader would have upped and gone by now and/or been pushed out by now. Even Maggie would have realised the game was up a week or so ago. Maggie wouldn't have gone, no way! I am 100% sure no one would have dared to have had a party at No.10 while Maggie was away to Chequers either! |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 13:26:04 GMT
Johnson is now even more unpopular than Theresa May was
Yougov
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 14, 2022 13:26:47 GMT
I have wondered in recent years (and JRM’s recent comments on Scot CON’s sort of confirms this) whether a similar tactic is employed with CON’s antagonism to the SNP. Is it to foster an anti-English sentiment to help prop up the SNP, thus denying Labour these seats? I can sort of see that as a strategy, though in the end it might prove counter productive if you wanted to keep the union intact. In JRM's case I think it was just bigoted toff speak, you could almost see him swatting a fly off his cuff. |
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Post by jimjam on Jan 14, 2022 13:31:22 GMT
Laszlo, The whole idea of morals and whether they are merely pragmatic responses, usually instinctive or subconscious, to our own self interest is a very wide discussion.
However, regardless of the origins of what we called morals, societal norms based on reciprocation and acquired values, do set a framework within which societies function.
When people feel they can get away with stuff without consequences they can ignore 'morals' with their actions be driven more directly by self interest.
For others the 'moral' framework becomes ingrained and an acquired part of their self-interest and the desire not to feel guilty limits 'immoral' self interest even when they can get away with it.
The reality is of course that people sit between the extremes and even people society would see as immoral will have some moral code (Dexter being a poor example).
Lets not discuss Kant as that would require a specific thread I guess.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jan 14, 2022 13:31:30 GMT
I have wondered in recent years (and JRM’s recent comments on Scot CON’s sort of confirms this) whether a similar tactic is employed with CON’s antagonism to the SNP. Is it to foster an anti-English sentiment to help prop up the SNP, thus denying Labour these seats? Well might not put it past them, Catifuzz, maybe Oldnat and Hireton et al can say more about it? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 13:32:49 GMT
Blimey Chinese spy gives over half a million to Labour MP wonder what he had to do for that sort of money ,still at least he didn’t attend any parties that would have been a lot more worrying. this the same Chinese spy that Theresa May gave an award to? You're a (now desperate) piece of work. You've also handily just confirmed that it was a CCO dead cat strategy. I do hope MI5 weren't complicit in this politicking? Nothing is certain in this God forsaken country anymore. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 13:36:38 GMT
domjg @" You don't believe in Universal Grammar? Fair enough it's not as popular a theory as it once was" Ah-interesting question.  No -I don't. I wouldn't have anyway at the philosophical level. It is all of a piece with a view of humanity which I don't buy. But because I find anything to do with human history and evolution interesting, I did have a look at the idea. I recommend Daniel Everett's " Language-the cultural tool". A brilliant and , I think effective response to Chomsky on Grammar
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 13:39:12 GMT
Boris almost at Corbyn's lowest levels and below May's lows[1]. CON MPs take note!
/photo/1
[1] Note that CON VI was much lower when May was on her lows although back then CON'17 had mostly parked themselves in Brexit Party VI as May was not getting Brexit (or what would have BrINO had HoC voted for her deal) done. RUK are picking up some CON'19 but most of the lose has been to DK, although CCHQ should note that LAB are starting to pick up a growing swing from CON'19 voters. Quite clearly Boris is the problem but if/when CON MPs do something about that is still TBC.
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hireton
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Post by hireton on Jan 14, 2022 13:39:36 GMT
Who gets to define, 'moral'? John Major had a go in 1994/5 but that didn't go too well, did it? The problem is, it means different things to different people. What might be moral to an agnostic, might be immoral to a Catholic and an abomination to a Northern Ireland Presbyterian. One definition to satisfy everyone is impossible. Personally, I think integrity, honesty and loyalty are moral attributes which are indisputable. I am surprised to find so much moral relativism breaking out amongst our roc contributors who normally have such trenchant views on such matters. I wonder why that might be? |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 13:50:01 GMT
Turk
The money allegedly went to Barry Gardiner a man of whom people have said " who"
More political influence would have been achieved by bribing Larry the downing street cat.
I suppose it was just a stunning coincidence that the activities of this individual which have been public knowledge since 2009 became of critical national importance on the same day that Spaffer's lying and hypocrisy caught up with him.
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Post by manlad on Jan 14, 2022 13:50:09 GMT
That's a fascinating and relevant epistemological problem. If moral (codes) are chosen or ignored, then it is purely subjective, and hence nothing can be said about. But it is not the case. Moral is a.derivative of values, values are derivative of needs. It is possible that one doesn't know what his needs are, but it is not possible not to have needs. And as needs are objective, so moral is objective just filtered through the individual's mind - hence one can act against his moral code (just as one can act against his values). While already I. Kant had some comments on it, it was really the 60s and 70s when it got more or less settled in philosophy (of ethics). Although Enron is an extreme example, it is useful for looking at the subjective and objective aspects of moral. When traders were recruited (mainly from leading business schools), they had to do a psychometric test. Those candidates were chosen whose moral were ambivalent (so not strong in any of the directions). You can imagine what sort of action it triggered among them when the rule was that if the trader performed better than his colleagues, he could move his desk closer to the bosses (and obviously away if he performed less well). They didn't use any absolute only relative performance indicators. I have always had more sympathy with Hume's conception of morality as a a reflection of the passions; themselves formed by the impressions of sensations. The rationalist view of Kant or Mandeville - that morality is discoverable a priori - is dubious at best. I find that Hutcheson provides the most pertinent rebuttals to the Kantian assertion that goodness is analogous to one’s best interest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 13:50:28 GMT
On folks view of the 'Prec(ar)ious' Union then perhaps the Smoggster is a fellow 'Little Englander' who wants to '(B)r-ightsize' UK? Note CON+U voters would be net 'pleased + not bothered' (v upset) to see the back of Scotland. Fairly old poll so if anyone has more recent polling then please post. Ironically, given the party’s staunch pro-union stance, it is Conservative voters who are the most likely to say they would be pleased for Scotland to break away (aside from SNP voters of course)yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan |
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hireton
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Post by hireton on Jan 14, 2022 13:52:39 GMT
The Johnson Cabal will have two main concerns as the weekend arrives:
1. Whether the Sunday newspapers bring new leaks and revelations. If there has been a deliberate and co-ordinated campaign, it may be that there is a killer one yet to come. Parties in the No10 flat?
2. Tory MPs are in their constituencies. I expect the regional whips will be hitting the phones to see what the mood is in the party and hoping that Sutton Coldfield was an outlier. If it isn't, that will be very serious news for Johnson.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 13:53:15 GMT
domjg @" You don't believe in Universal Grammar? Fair enough it's not as popular a theory as it once was" Ah-interesting question. No -I don't. I wouldn't have anyway at the philosophical level. It is all of a piece with a view of humanity which I don'y buy. But because I find anything to do with human history and evolution interesting, I did have a look at the idea. I recommend Daniel Everett's " Language-the cultural tool". A brilliant and , I think effective response to Chomsky on Grammar Yes I think Universal Grammar has pretty much had it's day now but it's a scientific question not a philosophical one really. In danger of going v off topic but one thing I do think Chomsky had a point on is that language in it's origin is not a tool for communication as such (as all animal communication systems are) but is primarily a tool for ordering thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 13:58:04 GMT
Johnson does have a moral compass: it's just that it has been set to:
"Do what you want and try to get away with it by lying, blaming Larry the Cat or sacking a civil servant."
And, to be fair he keeps to it consistently.
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Post by jimjam on Jan 14, 2022 13:59:08 GMT
Manlad welcome to the main pages.
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Post by catfuzz on Jan 14, 2022 14:02:41 GMT
Johnson is now even more unpopular than Theresa May was I’ve only til now realised quite how unpopular Corbyn was with the g.public until I saw this chart. When you compare Starmer now to Corbyn not long after he first became LOO, it’s quite remarkable how level-pegging their ratings are. |
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Post by catfuzz on Jan 14, 2022 14:04:18 GMT
I have wondered in recent years (and JRM’s recent comments on Scot CON’s sort of confirms this) whether a similar tactic is employed with CON’s antagonism to the SNP. Is it to foster an anti-English sentiment to help prop up the SNP, thus denying Labour these seats? I can sort of see that as a strategy, though in the end it might prove counter productive if you wanted to keep the union intact. In JRM's case I think it was just bigoted toff speak, you could almost see him swatting a fly off his cuff. Agreed, though based on this governments historical prescedence, I highly doubt they give a fig despite protests to the contrary. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 14:13:58 GMT
domjg@"Yes I think Universal Grammar has pretty much had it's day now but it's a scientific question not a philosophical one really." I disagree -I think it very much sits with a view of humanity which is suspicious of the individual and all his complexities, and seeks Universal Laws which we are ( or should be ) subject to . So it is very much a philosophical viewpoint. Everett did the research which roots grammar in culture and shows that universal grammar doesn't seem to work.It springs from the complex interplay of factors, of which culture, the values human beings share, plays a major role in structuring the way that we talk and the things that we talk about.It springs from necessity and circumstance in other words.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 14:24:31 GMT
domjg @"Yes I think Universal Grammar has pretty much had it's day now but it's a scientific question not a philosophical one really." I disagree -I think it very much sits with a view of humanity which is suspicious of the individual and all his complexities, and seeks Universal Laws which we are ( or should be ) subject to . So it is very much a philosophical viewpoint. Everett did the research which roots grammar in culture and shows that universal grammar doesn't seem to work.It springs from the complex interplay of factors, of which culture, the values human beings share, plays a major role in structuring the way that we talk and the things that we talk about.It springs from necessity and circumstance in other words. The level of individualism we have today in the West (and which I greatly value btw) is not that common in human history. We evolved to function like wolf packs which is why we're so tribal! (well some of us are ) I've never seen the idea of universal grammar as a threat to the idea of individual autonomy I have to say, I just saw it as a theory of the origin of human language (which is still a big mystery). I find it interesting that on the one hand the roc tend to be very in favour of individualism in theory but nonetheless tend to prefer cultural conformity and lean more towards tribalism (which to my mind is the opposite of individualism) whereas those on the left tend to be very in favour of communitarianism in theory but encourage greater diversity within that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 14:39:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 14:45:00 GMT
City comment: Are we seeing the beginnings of Boris Johnson’s high wage economy?
Everywhere you look it seems like pay is going up I'm in my 7th year of pay cuts as a civil servant. There's quite a few of us. |
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