Sport - for discussions of all sporting events

[neilj]

Oct 25, 2023 10:22:41 GMT @isa said:

After a decade of unremitting misery, which has seen them fall from the second tier of English football to the sixth, perhaps things are finally looking up for Yeovil Town.

After another very shaky start to the season, they have had six straight league wins, and now find themselves top of Nationwide League South. Yesterday's derby win, on a terrible night, over traditional rivals Weymouth was watched by a crowd of 6,289. This beat the league's previous highest ever attendance by over 1,000. It was also higher than six attendances in League 2 and three in League 1 last night. 

Fingers crossed.

Good luck, Hereford also had a big fall following bankruptcy in their case, now 17th in National league North and no sign of them getting out of it fast
I remember the glory days of successive promotions from the old Southern league to the old second Division (now the Championship). Can't see them ever coming back

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2023 10:38:35 GMT neilj said:

Oct 25, 2023 10:22:41 GMT @isa said:

After a decade of unremitting misery, which has seen them fall from the second tier of English football to the sixth, perhaps things are finally looking up for Yeovil Town.

After another very shaky start to the season, they have had six straight league wins, and now find themselves top of Nationwide League South. Yesterday's derby win, on a terrible night, over traditional rivals Weymouth was watched by a crowd of 6,289. This beat the league's previous highest ever attendance by over 1,000. It was also higher than six attendances in League 2 and three in League 1 last night. 

Fingers crossed.

Good luck, Hereford also had a big fall following bankruptcy in their case, now 17th in National league North and no sign of them getting out of it fast
I remember the glory days of successive promotions from the old Southern league to the old second Division (now the Championship). Can't see them ever coming back

Thanks, neilj. I well remember rivalry with Hereford in the early '70s just prior to them getting in the League in 1972, I think. They've certainly been in the doldrums for a while now. Surprising, really, as the potential there is huge. 

In fact, it's surprising just how many traditional League teams have dropped out of the FL in recent years. Many have struggled to get back, and even when they do, it can take years.

[leftieliberal]

Australia moving towards victory over India in the World Cup. India 240 all out (a below-par score in anyone's book); Australia 172-3 after 32 overs. They haven't even needed Maxwell's batting yet.

[mercian]

Cracking match between Villa and Manchester City tonight. I watched it on Amazon. Top class football, pretty much as good as I've ever seen (I don't watch much nowadays). I was impressed by the way they had very good ball control in close situations, but also weren't afraid to played long balls over the top to a racing forward. I know there are other Villa fans on the site, including crossbat11 and I think (could be wrong) leftieliberal. Outstanding contributions from Bailey, McGinn, Ligne and Martinez among others.
One little side observation. When I used to go to Villa Park regularly about 50 years ago, by this time of the season the goal areas in particular used to be just mud. Tonight it looked like a bowling green.

[leftieliberal]

Dec 6, 2023 23:17:47 GMT mercian said:

Cracking match between Villa and Manchester City tonight. I watched it on Amazon. Top class football, pretty much as good as I've ever seen (I don't watch much nowadays). I was impressed by the way they had very good ball control in close situations, but also weren't afraid to played long balls over the top to a racing forward. I know there are other Villa fans on the site, including crossbat11 and I think (could be wrong) leftieliberal . Outstanding contributions from Bailey, McGinn, Ligne and Martinez among others.
One little side observation. When I used to go to Villa Park regularly about 50 years ago, by this time of the season the goal areas in particular used to be just mud. Tonight it looked like a bowling green.

Yes, I watched the highlights on MOTD last night (having listened to the radio commentary on 5 Live). Up the Villa!

[mercian]

I've just discovered that Villa are the reigning National League of Baseball champions. Held just once in 1890!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_National_League_of_Baseball_of_Great_Britain

[leftieliberal]

15 successive home wins, including over Arsenal and Man City, then the bottom side, the Blades, come to Villa Park and take a point home with them. Villa flattering to deceive.   

[neilj]

Some good results yesterday

Wolves beat Everton 3-0 in what I think was their best performance of the season. If anything the scoreline flattered Everton!

Nuno's team Nottingham Forest beating Man U, a thoroughly deserved win

Aston Villa winning, but making it harder work than it should be. Still they are now joining top with Liverpool on points

[leftieliberal]

Wayne Rooney sacked as Birmingham City manager inews.co.uk/sport/football/birmingham-sack-wayne-rooney-83-days-2833083

I'm not surprised, taking the team from 6th in the Championship to 20th was not good. It does reinforce the general rule that great players rarely make great managers: Stephen Gerrard, Frank Lampard, and now Wayne Rooney have all failed.

As a Villan, I suppose I should be gloating, but as Stephen Gerrard was our Club's mistake, I have some sympathy for Blues' fans (but not their ownership).

[leftieliberal]

Nottingham Forest face questions over Jonjo Shelvey’s confused exit from club

Shelvey was originally set to join Caykur Rizespor on loan but Forest realised they would be unable to conclude the deal because it would have meant exceeding the number of players they are permitted to have out on loan, so instead rescinded the player’s contract. Fifa rules state a club can loan out a maximum of seven players at any one time.

Meanwhile, the club are at risk of a potential points deduction if they are found to have breached the Premier League’s profitability and sustainability rules. Forest will be informed later this month if any charges are to be brought against them.

Oops. I don't think Nuno will be happy.

[johntel]

Jan 3, 2024 20:52:29 GMT leftieliberal said:

Nottingham Forest face questions over Jonjo Shelvey’s confused exit from club

Shelvey was originally set to join Caykur Rizespor on loan but Forest realised they would be unable to conclude the deal because it would have meant exceeding the number of players they are permitted to have out on loan, so instead rescinded the player’s contract. Fifa rules state a club can loan out a maximum of seven players at any one time.

Meanwhile, the club are at risk of a potential points deduction if they are found to have breached the Premier League’s profitability and sustainability rules. Forest will be informed later this month if any charges are to be brought against them.

Oops. I don't think Nuno will be happy.

I have no doubt that my club are innocent of all charges, whatever they may be 

Tbh I can't see what the club is being accused of over Shelvey apart from putting out a misleading statement, and the line from the City Ground is that the FA were consulted and kept fully informed of the delay in the Brennan Johnson transfer which caused it to be pushed into the next accounting period, thus causing a possible FFP breach. Apparently what Forest did is fine according to standard accounting rules but is not clear in FFP.

Edit: Have realised that the issue with Shelvey is that if his contract was terminated then a loss should have been recognised which could push Forest over the FFP limits. 

[mercian]

Jan 2, 2024 12:55:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

Wayne Rooney sacked as Birmingham City manager inews.co.uk/sport/football/birmingham-sack-wayne-rooney-83-days-2833083

I'm not surprised, taking the team from 6th in the Championship to 20th was not good. It does reinforce the general rule that great players rarely make great managers: Stephen Gerrard, Frank Lampard, and now Wayne Rooney have all failed.

As a Villan, I suppose I should be gloating, but as Stephen Gerrard was our Club's mistake, I have some sympathy for Blues' fans (but not their ownership).

There have been many others in the past. Players such as Stanley Matthews, Bobby Moore, Glen Hoddle etc. There have been one or two exceptions who made at least reasonable managers such as Cruyff and Zidane.

The two greatest relatively recent managers in England have been Clough and Ferguson. Both were good players but somewhere short of great. Clough scored hundreds of goals for (I think) Middlesbrough and Sunderland but mainly in what was then Division 2. He played a handful of games for England. Ferguson was also a striker for various clubs including Rangers, but like Clough he only played a few games for his national side.  

[neilj]

Jan 4, 2024 0:28:09 GMT mercian said:

Jan 2, 2024 12:55:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

Wayne Rooney sacked as Birmingham City manager inews.co.uk/sport/football/birmingham-sack-wayne-rooney-83-days-2833083

I'm not surprised, taking the team from 6th in the Championship to 20th was not good. It does reinforce the general rule that great players rarely make great managers: Stephen Gerrard, Frank Lampard, and now Wayne Rooney have all failed.

As a Villan, I suppose I should be gloating, but as Stephen Gerrard was our Club's mistake, I have some sympathy for Blues' fans (but not their ownership).

There have been many others in the past. Players such as Stanley Matthews, Bobby Moore, Glen Hoddle etc. There have been one or two exceptions who made at least reasonable managers such as Cruyff and Zidane.

The two greatest relatively recent managers in England have been Clough and Ferguson. Both were good players but somewhere short of great. Clough scored hundreds of goals for (I think) Middlesbrough and Sunderland but mainly in what was then Division 2. He played a handful of games for England. Ferguson was also a striker for various clubs including Rangers, but like Clough he only played a few games for his national side.  

Other very good players who became successful managers were Franz Beckenbauer, Vicente del Bosque, Carlo Ancelotti and Pep Guardiola
My favourite was Jack Charlton, his managerial career for me was marked by a sense of doing the right thing

[leftieliberal]

Jan 4, 2024 0:28:09 GMT mercian said:

Jan 2, 2024 12:55:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

Wayne Rooney sacked as Birmingham City manager inews.co.uk/sport/football/birmingham-sack-wayne-rooney-83-days-2833083

I'm not surprised, taking the team from 6th in the Championship to 20th was not good. It does reinforce the general rule that great players rarely make great managers: Stephen Gerrard, Frank Lampard, and now Wayne Rooney have all failed.

As a Villan, I suppose I should be gloating, but as Stephen Gerrard was our Club's mistake, I have some sympathy for Blues' fans (but not their ownership).

There have been many others in the past. Players such as Stanley Matthews, Bobby Moore, Glen Hoddle etc. There have been one or two exceptions who made at least reasonable managers such as Cruyff and Zidane.

The two greatest relatively recent managers in England have been Clough and Ferguson. Both were good players but somewhere short of great. Clough scored hundreds of goals for (I think) Middlesbrough and Sunderland but mainly in what was then Division 2. He played a handful of games for England. Ferguson was also a striker for various clubs including Rangers, but like Clough he only played a few games for his national side.  

Clough's playing career was cut short by tearing his medial and cruciate ligaments. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Clough

In the 1962–63 season, Clough had scored 24 league goals by December as Sunderland pushed for promotion. In a match against Bury at Roker Park on 26 December 1962, in icy conditions and torrential rain, Clough was put through on goal and collided with goalkeeper, Chris Harker. Clough tore the medial and cruciate ligaments in his knee, an injury which in that era usually ended a player's career. He returned two years later, but could manage only three games and then retired from playing at the age of 29.

[leftieliberal]

Getting away from footie and back to a gentlemen's game. the supposedly five-day Test match between South Africa and India has finished well inside two days with India winning by seven wickets to tie the series. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/ECKE1216256

What a run of out-of-the-ordinary occurrences in a single match:

South Africa all out for 55 in their first inning in 23.2 overs after winning the toss and choosing to bat;
India losing the last six wickets in their first innings for 0 runs in just 11 balls;
The South African opener, Markram, scoring a century in the second innings at more than a run-a-ball, while none of the remaining 10 South African batters could get more than 12.

The shortest Test Match in history (642 balls) to produce a result. Truly remarkable.

[leftieliberal]

Bazball! England stun India with victory in the First Test. After Pope falls just short of a double century; Hartley takes seven Indian wickets in the second innings.

[leftieliberal]

The latest round of Premier League matches seems to be clarifying some of the end-of-season placings. It is looking increasingly like a two-horse race for the title and, while I have nothing against Pep Guardiola, a Liverpool title would be a well-deserved end to Klopp's management career there.

At the other end of the table, there seems to be little doubt that both Sheffield United and Burnley are on their way back to the Championship, but Luton are proving a surprise package. Everton, having recovered from that points deduction have now struck a dismal run of form with just two points from the last five games. I still fancy Dyche to keep them up, but I expect some squeaky bums. If Luton stay up, then I previously thought that Crystal Palace would go down; now I think it is more likely to be Brentford - one win and five losses in the last six games is ominous. Forest are managing a point a game fairly consistently over the season; if they keep up that rate until the end they will be on 36 points, which is usually enough for survival. Whether they get docked points for FFP or not may be crucial in them staying up.

[mercian]

I think Villa are pretty much out of the title race now, though nothing's impossible. Top 4 seems quite a good chance. It'd be nice to be back in the Champions League for the first time in 40 years. Yes I know it wasn't called that then.

[johntel]

Jan 31, 2024 22:00:44 GMT leftieliberal said:

The latest round of Premier League matches seems to be clarifying some of the end-of-season placings. It is looking increasingly like a two-horse race for the title and, while I have nothing against Pep Guardiola, a Liverpool title would be a well-deserved end to Klopp's management career there.

At the other end of the table, there seems to be little doubt that both Sheffield United and Burnley are on their way back to the Championship, but Luton are proving a surprise package. Everton, having recovered from that points deduction have now struck a dismal run of form with just two points from the last five games. I still fancy Dyche to keep them up, but I expect some squeaky bums. If Luton stay up, then I previously thought that Crystal Palace would go down; now I think it is more likely to be Brentford - one win and five losses in the last six games is ominous. Forest are managing a point a game fairly consistently over the season; if they keep up that rate until the end they will be on 36 points, which is usually enough for survival. Whether they get docked points for FFP or not may be crucial in them staying up.

I wish I was as optimistic as you about Forest's chances of avoiding relegation @leftie.  A small points deduction is the most likely outcome of the FFP shenanigans and key players are still at AFCON.  There's a long way to go yet though...

[leftieliberal]

Feb 4, 2024 14:20:10 GMT johntel said:

Jan 31, 2024 22:00:44 GMT leftieliberal said:

The latest round of Premier League matches seems to be clarifying some of the end-of-season placings. It is looking increasingly like a two-horse race for the title and, while I have nothing against Pep Guardiola, a Liverpool title would be a well-deserved end to Klopp's management career there.

At the other end of the table, there seems to be little doubt that both Sheffield United and Burnley are on their way back to the Championship, but Luton are proving a surprise package. Everton, having recovered from that points deduction have now struck a dismal run of form with just two points from the last five games. I still fancy Dyche to keep them up, but I expect some squeaky bums. If Luton stay up, then I previously thought that Crystal Palace would go down; now I think it is more likely to be Brentford - one win and five losses in the last six games is ominous. Forest are managing a point a game fairly consistently over the season; if they keep up that rate until the end they will be on 36 points, which is usually enough for survival. Whether they get docked points for FFP or not may be crucial in them staying up.

I wish I was as optimistic as you about Forest's chances of avoiding relegation @leftie.  A small points deduction is the most likely outcome of the FFP shenanigans and key players are still at AFCON.  There's a long way to go yet though...

Traditionally the 40 point mark was considered as the level needed to stay up, but it depends on how well the three teams in the relegation zone do. When, as this year one or two of the teams are well behind (Burnley on 13 points and Sheffield United on 10) it raises the bar. Since the 95-96 season when the Premier League was reduced to 20 clubs (and therefore a 38 game season) the number of points won by the 17th team has been:

38, 41, 40, 41, 36, 42, 40, 44 (2002-03 when West Brom went down with 26 points and Sunderland with 19), 39, 34, 38, 38, 36, 35, 35, 40, 37, 39, 36, 38, 39, 40, 36, 36, 35, 39, 38, 36. 

 So that's 10 seasons where 36 points was enough to keep a team up; 38 points sufficed in 16 seasons and 39 points in 20 seasons (and all but once in the last decade). If it is any encouragement, Forest are drawing away at Bournemouth after an hour's play. EDIT Forest held on for a valuable away point.

[leftieliberal]

Financial fair play. What will be the outcome of Everton's appeal? This is from my newsletter, which should appear in the i newspaper in the next day or two.

What Everton’s appeal could mean for Nottingham Forest – and Everton

If Everton’s initial punishment set the bar for how the Premier League intended to handle PSR breaches, their appeal verdict will irrevocably rubber-stamp that bar as the standard.

As Wilson explains, this is an issue the Premier League have made for themselves by not initially establishing clear guidelines for PSR punishment.

“The main problem the Premier League are facing is that there is a) no precedent for the penalty and b) there’s nothing written down in the rulebook about what the penalty should be,” he said. “In all American sports, there are clear regulations for financial punishment – ‘If you exceed by X, this is what happens’. The Premier League haven’t published their equivalent of that.

“The Premier League will have to be kicked into action in defining the actual penalties for breaches of similar nature going forward. It has to be that a specific amount lost leads to a specific points deduction.

“Uefa are implementing much more clearly-defined penalties for points deductions, squad size limits and potentially even relegations if you massively breach. The Premier League should use those to write the rulebook properly.”

This leaves three clear options for the appeal. The first is that the current points deduction is upheld, which would leave Everton 18th in the league and in the relegation zone. This would appear the most obvious outcome, but sports finance expert Dr Rob Wilson doesn’t think this will be the case.

“I fully expect the points deduction to be halved on appeal,” he tells i. “I think they will be looking at a four to six-point deduction. Principally, this is because it sets a really big precedent. £24.5m or so [over the limit] over three years is not huge.

“If you go in really hard with 10 points, that’s the sort of deduction that will make or break seasons and can have a material impact on finishing positions and ongoing revenue. I think it’ll be reduced.”

Don't be surprised if Everton's points deduction is halved.

[leftieliberal]

Feb 17, 2024 17:25:59 GMT leftieliberal said:

Financial fair play. What will be the outcome of Everton's appeal? This is from my newsletter, which should appear in the i newspaper in the next day or two.

What Everton’s appeal could mean for Nottingham Forest – and Everton

If Everton’s initial punishment set the bar for how the Premier League intended to handle PSR breaches, their appeal verdict will irrevocably rubber-stamp that bar as the standard.

As Wilson explains, this is an issue the Premier League have made for themselves by not initially establishing clear guidelines for PSR punishment.

“The main problem the Premier League are facing is that there is a) no precedent for the penalty and b) there’s nothing written down in the rulebook about what the penalty should be,” he said. “In all American sports, there are clear regulations for financial punishment – ‘If you exceed by X, this is what happens’. The Premier League haven’t published their equivalent of that.

“The Premier League will have to be kicked into action in defining the actual penalties for breaches of similar nature going forward. It has to be that a specific amount lost leads to a specific points deduction.

“Uefa are implementing much more clearly-defined penalties for points deductions, squad size limits and potentially even relegations if you massively breach. The Premier League should use those to write the rulebook properly.”

This leaves three clear options for the appeal. The first is that the current points deduction is upheld, which would leave Everton 18th in the league and in the relegation zone. This would appear the most obvious outcome, but sports finance expert Dr Rob Wilson doesn’t think this will be the case.

“I fully expect the points deduction to be halved on appeal,” he tells i. “I think they will be looking at a four to six-point deduction. Principally, this is because it sets a really big precedent. £24.5m or so [over the limit] over three years is not huge.

“If you go in really hard with 10 points, that’s the sort of deduction that will make or break seasons and can have a material impact on finishing positions and ongoing revenue. I think it’ll be reduced.”

Don't be surprised if Everton's points deduction is halved.

Now Forest have been docked four points they know that, at worst, they need to score one more point than Luton to stay up on goal difference as long as Burnley don't go on a winning run.

[alec]

Just a quickie about the Rugby Six Nations. All in all I think it was a fantastic tournament, with a series of teams in various stages of development, each showing some very positive signs while also displaying flaws and weaknesses, which when it all gets pulled together added up to a riveting championship.

Ireland started off in imperious form, and were the clear winners, but their last two games were a nail biting loss to England and narrow win against Scotland which could conceivably have been a second loss, but for a couple of key moments. Wales were wooden spooners, but showed some strong glimpses of where they could be soon, while Italy had their best Six Nations, with two wins and a draw. France blew very hot and then cold, and England started quite poorly, but had a great performance against Ireland and another very tight and exhilarating game against France. Scotland were a typical mix of brilliance and baffling confusion, finishing 4th overall. But it's a sign of how close everything was that but for three moments going the other way, Scotland could have had their fourth Grand Slam.

That injury time try that wasn't allowed against France was a match turning moment, and had Fin Russel not missed a penalty against Italy, his only goal kicking miss of an otherwise perfect campaign record, Scotland would have been facing Ireland for the grand slam. That match was decided by a single score, and had Scotland's line out throw in the first half gone to hand, or Blair Kinghorn had successfully intercepted an Irish penalty kick for touch in the second half, instead of the wet ball slipping through his hands, one or other of Ireland's two tries would not have been scored.

There were plenty of similar moments that went the other way which benefited Scotland, and all the other teams also experience near misses and lucky breaks, and that's what made this year such a great year. It was far from perfect rugby, but all the more fun because of it.

[johntel]

From Batty on the other thread:
"We mustn't overly test the forbearance of non-football lovers and sports agnostics on here, so I won't go into a long treatise about the iniquities of the ridiculously arcane Financial Fair Play rules, but there is a counter-argument and narrative to the generally accepted one that the rules are grossly unfair and unevenly applied. This tells the story of the inept, maybe corrupt too, ownership and maladministration of the clubs themselves. In other words, don't always blame the rules but blame the rule breakers instead.

Barney Ronay of the Guardian tells this part of the sorry tale very well. He cites the Forest owners as a particular example :-

www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/18/supporters-should-blame-club-owners-not-the-rules-for-points-deductions"


Absolutely right and most Forest fans would agree that the club is culpable too. However if the affected clubs don't push back, what is ever going to change?

The fact is that Marinakis has the cash and is willing to spend it to establish Forest as a top 6 club. But the Premier League is controlled by the current elite who are afraid of losing their positions, who were able to establish their brands and earning potential before the PSR rules were brought in and don't want anyone else muscling in.

Everton's problems arise from the cost of building a new stadium, an investment which will allow them to generate extra revenue and make the club more stable in the long run  - exactly what PSR is supposed to encourage. PSR is putting them at more risk, not less! 

[leftieliberal]

Louis Rees-Zammit joins the Kansas City Chiefs: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/68686340
Let's hope he now makes the 53-man active roster, but at least he's guaranteed a three-year contract and with the number of injuries in American Football there are often promotions from the practice squad during the season.

[alec]

Women's Six Nations Rugby: Early to draw conclusions, but from what we've seen this year, Wales, Ireland, Italy and particularly Scotland seem to have made significant progress, while England remain way out in front.
The matches involving England are by some margin the least interesting, being one sided romps that we would expect where one team has been professional for much longer, with much greater resources. It remains to be seen whether France can mount a serious challenge this year, but they toiled against Scotland and although won comfortably against Ireland, it was markedly harder than last years romp. My guess is that this is due to an across the board lifting in standards, possibly with Scotland turning up as the most improved side.

[johntel]

So after giving Forest and Everton points deductions, it looks like the Premier League are planning to change the rules so that no other clubs can be punished like that. Rumour has it that it's because some 'big' clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City would also be hit and that can't be allowed of course...

[leftieliberal]

I think that the Blue half of Merseyside will be very relieved: Everton deducted two points for second breach of Premier League financial rules
This leaves them two points above the drop zone with a better goal difference than both Forest and Luton and a game in hand on both of those clubs.

[johntel]

Apr 8, 2024 13:16:46 GMT leftieliberal said:

I think that the Blue half of Merseyside will be very relieved: Everton deducted two points for second breach of Premier League financial rules
This leaves them two points above the drop zone with a better goal difference than both Forest and Luton and a game in hand on both of those clubs.

Everton avoided relegation by bumping last season's punishment until this season... and then got this season's punishment reduced because otherwise they would be punished twice in the same season!

[moby]

Back to back promotion achieved by my home town club the Welsh Dragons yesterday...now we'll see how deep Rob and Ryan's pockets really are. To be fair to them they have to date put their money and energy into the project and the whole town has benefitted as well.

youtu.be/wD_87JlGjWU?feature=shared