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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 17, 2021 11:34:23 GMT
I wanted to kick this off by commenting on yet another poor performance by England in the second Test at Adelaide. This time they at least lost the toss, which removes the blame from Root for choosing to bat first at the Gabba, but again the Aussies have posted a 400+ score while England's openers have gone cheaply: Australia First innings 473 - for 9 wickets dec England First innings 17 - for 2 wickets (8.4 overs) Close - England trail Australia by 456 runs with 8 wickets remaining England still need to score another 257 runs to avoid the follow-on. The only question for me is whether this series will turn into another 5-0 whitewash, or whether we manage to salvage a draw once or twice. I cannot see the England team, which looks severely under-cooked, bowling out Australia twice in a match. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/57164431 |
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Post by alec on Dec 17, 2021 11:44:19 GMT
We're not blaming the pitch, we didn't front up, as soon as the thread was started I knew it was going to be a winner, pleased for the lads, we gave it 234% out there, they're a great team and we respect them, we never gave up, Don told us at half time it's a game of two halves, my Dad is in the crowd he'll be so pleased, the fans really got behind us, it means so much for the town/city/country, this is more than a game....[that's enough - Ed.]
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 17, 2021 12:00:08 GMT
We're not blaming the pitch, we didn't front up, as soon as the thread was started I knew it was going to be a winner, pleased for the lads, we gave it 234% out there, they're a great team and we respect them, we never gave up, Don told us at half time it's a game of two halves, my Dad is in the crowd he'll be so pleased, the fans really got behind us, it means so much for the town/city/country, this is more than a game....[that's enough - Ed.] I was wondering whether I should have made the pun more obvious by saying that they were severely under-Cooked. |
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Post by Mercian as Guest on Dec 17, 2021 12:50:35 GMT
I think Root is a poor captain. Admittedly there's a limit to what he can do with a team that can't bat or catch, but he seems to start out with a plan for the day but doesn't seem able to adapt to changing circumstances. The best relatively modern captain IMO was Vaughan who frequently came up with unexpected little tactics to wrong-foot the opposition. Root always claims that he is still learning the job but I think he's captained England more than anyone else. Also Root's not a natural leader. He always seems downbeat and underplays the situation even when winning. It'd be good to have someone a bit more gung-ho. Morgan's getting on a bit but we could get a couple of years of captaincy out of him.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 17, 2021 18:16:43 GMT
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Post by mercian on Dec 17, 2021 23:46:34 GMT
I think our bowling's on a par with the Aussies, but when their batsmen are better than ours and our fielders are worse than theirs, our bowlers are at a disadvantage.
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Post by birdseye on Dec 18, 2021 19:30:57 GMT
Surely this performance in Oz is simply the return of normal service. Cricket is now a minor UK summer sport, often interrupted by rain, so we can hardly expect to produce a lot of talent.Doesnt matter much - we beat them at rugger which is far more important.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 18, 2021 20:56:33 GMT
Surely this performance in Oz is simply the return of normal service. Cricket is now a minor UK summer sport, often interrupted by rain, so we can hardly expect to produce a lot of talent.Doesnt matter much - we beat them at rugger which is far more important. It's not a minor summer sport; it is that the ECB have consistently prioritised the short forms of the game to the extent that the 4-day county game has been pushed to ends of the season and even when the England team tours there are almost no warm-up games. The Australians in comparison have a full fixture list of Sheffield Shield cricket, which is like our County Championship. You cannot get batters and bowlers prepared for the rigours of Test cricket without a solid period of County Championship cricket in the middle of every season. |
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Post by birdseye on Dec 23, 2021 16:40:41 GMT
You are suggesting thata the skills required to hit the ball in the short game and in the long game are somehow different. Clearly the level of risk you might take is different but the hand eye co-ordination isnt at all.In the event England have a better win average in test cricket than in one day against Oz.
As for popularity stats are difficult but one I found suggests that cricket is the 7th most popular UK participant sport and not a lot better in TV viewing. None of my 4 grandsons play summer cricket at school.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 23, 2021 17:59:55 GMT
birdseye It's not the skills that are different; it's the judgement. Playing in limited overs cricket you have to try to hit the ball whenever possible; in Test matches the art of leaving the ball is essential. In fact England's bowling was almost identical in length to the Aussies; the difference came in the batting where the Aussies left far more balls that were not on a line to hit the wicket. You only have to look at how many England batters were caught in the arc between wicket-keeper and gully to appreciate this. Just watch how England batters got out on iPlayer.
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Post by birdseye on Dec 24, 2021 9:02:15 GMT
Thats interesting but how does that fit with much higher scores from the Aussie batsmen? Surely they have to be hitting far more balls to get far more runs which on your argument suggests that England bowlers were more accurate if the batsmen were only trying to hit on target bowls.Or is it the case that the Aussie batsmen were better at getting a clean hit / the english bowlers were less "tricky"
Sorry but as a non cricketer, I do not know where gully stands, but as a keen squash player when younger I do know the difference between a clean hit and the ones I sometimes made !
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 27, 2021 14:07:17 GMT
Thats interesting but how does that fit with much higher scores from the Aussie batsmen? Surely they have to be hitting far more balls to get far more runs which on your argument suggests that England bowlers were more accurate if the batsmen were only trying to hit on target bowls.Or is it the case that the Aussie batsmen were better at getting a clean hit / the english bowlers were less "tricky" Sorry but as a non cricketer, I do not know where gully stands, but as a keen squash player when younger I do know the difference between a clean hit and the ones I sometimes made ! This wikipedia article shows the fielding positions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielding_(cricket) Broadly, fielding positions fall into three groups: close catchers, saving one (fielders just inside or on the edge of the 30 metre line (the line is only used in limited-overs cricket)) and saving boundaries. As for why Australian batters score more runs it is simply that they bat for longer and face more balls before getting out. Look at the score-card of the current Test: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/ECKO51145Batters, once they have got themselves set, typically score at between 40 and 60 runs per 100 balls. This is their Strike Rate (SR). As you can see the strike rates for the upper and middle-order batters on the two sides are quite similar, but the Australian batters faced rather more balls before getting out. (Incidentally batters is the new officially-sanctioned name for what you call batsmen; bowlers were always gender neutral and batters are now. Women cricketers called themselves batters for years before the term became universal.) |
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 28, 2021 0:36:08 GMT
Root out: England 61-7 still needing 21 to make Australia bat again. Boland 4 for 5 in 3 overs. Can we just forfeit the last two Tests and bring the England team home now? :-(
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 28, 2021 11:59:34 GMT
This article says all that needs to be said about England's performance: www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/120396/englands-test-batting-at-rock-bottom-with-deep-rooted-issuesb"An ECB qualified youth coach told Cricbuzz that he agreed with Farbrace's assessment. The coach said they are given guidance by the ECB now to be a lot less interventionist than they were 10 or 12 years ago to try and let players think for themselves and develop their own methods." The very idea that correcting batters' technical faults is optional shows the lack of intelligence at the ECB. |
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Post by mercian on Dec 28, 2021 12:46:01 GMT
The top 6 of about 10 years ago was Strauss, Cook, Trott, Peterson, Bell and Prior. What would we give for any one of them now? Something has gone drastically wrong. Messing up the county season is one reason.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 28, 2021 12:50:51 GMT
The top 6 of about 10 years ago was Strauss, Cook, Trott, Peterson, Bell and Prior. What would we give for any one of them now? Something has gone drastically wrong. Messing up the county season is one reason. I dunno, I recall Strauss labouring for ages with issues using his front foot correctly*, and Cook struggled going forward for quite some time too. The issue Leftieliberal is on about, issues correcting technical errors, goes back a while. * (still recall Nasser Hussain used video clips to diagnose the issue on telly. Strauss wasn’t bending his front leg when planting it forward. This left the weight transfer wrong, back leg collapses, disaster ensues. Unfortunately Hussein was commentating and the message didn’t seem to get through to Strauss in any kind of a hurry). Some are better at fixing their own errors than others. (Or maybe sometimes are more determined. Vaughan once pointed out how, after getting out again to left handed spin, Peterson sat in silence deep in thought in the dressing room for a while, leaving his pads on, then raced off to the nets to try and fix the problem). |
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Post by mercian on Dec 28, 2021 22:49:35 GMT
Yes, Strauss was perhaps the weakest of those as a batsman, but he still averaged 40+ as an opener and was a reasonable captain. Apart from Root the current batch average around 30 or below. Stokes is 36 but it seems his best days might be behind him.
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Post by birdseye on Dec 30, 2021 20:41:07 GMT
birdseye This wikipedia article shows the fielding positions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielding_(cricket) Broadly, fielding positions fall into three groups: close catchers, saving one (fielders just inside or on the edge of the 30 metre line (the line is only used in limited-overs cricket)) and saving boundaries. As for why Australian batters score more runs it is simply that they bat for longer and face more balls before getting out. Look at the score-card of the current Test: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/ECKO51145Batters, once they have got themselves set, typically score at between 40 and 60 runs per 100 balls. This is their Strike Rate (SR). As you can see the strike rates for the upper and middle-order batters on the two sides are quite similar, but the Australian batters faced rather more balls before getting out. (Incidentally batters is the new officially-sanctioned name for what you call batsmen; bowlers were always gender neutral and batters are now. Women cricketers called themselves batters for years before the term became universal.) Thanks for taking the trouble to reply. We did play cricket at school but I avoided it chosing the cadet corps and squash instead so I never learned the field positions.
The score card is interesting and bears out what you say although the big difference in that test seems to be Harris plus a better batting performance from the Ozzie tail end compared to their British opposition. 180 minutes longer from the Ozzies than our lot in first innings. But having said that it looked like a recoverable situation until the second innings collapse. The performance in that innings was pathetic compared to the first one. I wonder why.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 31, 2021 12:40:56 GMT
birdseye said "But having said that it looked like a recoverable situation until the second innings collapse. The performance in that innings was pathetic compared to the first one. I wonder why." I did watch the 'highlights' of all three days' play on iPlayer; six wickets for seven runs is one of those incredible figures that only comes along once every few decades. It was like the Edgbaston Test in 1981, where Ian Botham took five Australian wickets for 1 run in 28 balls (5 for 11 overall) but that was all the Australian lower order, Boland's six-wicket haul included three recognised batters (Hameed, Root and Bairstow). Apart from Wood patting the ball back to Boland for a c&b, almost all the dismissals were to very good balls. If you have not played cricket, it's quite difficult to appreciate how easy it is for even a good batter to get an edge to a delivery on or just outside the off stump before they get set. Boland bowled an excellent line and length, forcing the England batters to play at almost every ball. If he is picked for the last two Tests (and Australia have no shortage of very good fast bowlers) I wouldn't be surprised to see him pick up one or two wickets in each innings but I wouldn't expect another five-for.
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Post by eor on Dec 31, 2021 23:16:02 GMT
Indeed leftieliberal - it's entirely possible that he might retire from international duty a living pub quiz legend :-) Can't remember which commentator it was but to be kind I *think* it was one of the Aussies that said when he got off the mark toward the end of their innings; "He's taken a wicket, he's taken catches, and now he's got runs - he can at least say he's ticked all the Test Match boxes after this". That...didn't age well. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 2, 2022 13:19:49 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59852809About time too. It is sad that the SRFU felt they had to wait for the centenary of his first cap before inducting him. He really should have been one of the first inductees as someone who exemplified the traditional Corinthian spirit of sport.
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Post by eor on Jan 3, 2022 0:20:13 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59852809About time too. It is sad that the SRFU felt they had to wait for the centenary of his first cap before inducting him. He really should have been one of the first inductees as someone who exemplified the traditional Corinthian spirit of sport. I initially wrote "the politics back then was mad" and then realised nothing has really changed, beyond the goalposts. If you view a list of the biggest sports stadia in the world (by crowd capacity) then you don't have to go very far down the list at all before many of them are relating to US "college football". You've got athletes commanding audiences of over 100k spectators, prime-time TV coverage across one of the world's largest countries, massive sponsorship... and yet... they're not actually allowed to be paid anything for it. People who make the money will cling onto it as long as they can, regardless of the people who actually generate it for them. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 5, 2022 13:51:55 GMT
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jan 6, 2022 22:52:52 GMT
Article in the Telegraph, arguing that Root misused Archer in the past (in NZ) and now Stokes, having them bowl short on placid pitches, leading to a poor return and injury.
“Ignoring that Archer had been most effective when predominantly bowling a good length, Root tasked Archer with the grunt work of fast bowling: pounding in and bowl short on placid tracks. Archer bowled 82 overs in 10 days - about 10 per cent as much as he had bowled in his entire first-class career up to that point.”
and…
“Yet, more often, the best of Stokes the bowler has been when pitching the ball up, finding seam and reverse or conventional swing. He averages 34.8 when bowling a short length in Test cricket, but just 20.3 when bowling a good length.”
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Post by mercian on Jan 6, 2022 23:30:05 GMT
Root is a poor captain, and may have finished Archer and Stokes as effective Test Match bowlers. It would also help England if they picked a wicketkeeper as opposed to a poor Test Match batsman trying to keep wicket. If he's a wicketkeeper who can bat, like Foakes, so much the better. Foakes averages just over 31 in tests compared to Buttler's 32, and 38 in FC compared to 32. People who know seem to think he's the best wicketkeeper, so why is Buttler there?
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jan 7, 2022 0:37:22 GMT
Root is a poor captain, and may have finished Archer and Stokes as effective Test Match bowlers. It would also help England if they picked a wicketkeeper as opposed to a poor Test Match batsman trying to keep wicket. If he's a wicketkeeper who can bat, like Foakes, so much the better. Foakes averages just over 31 in tests compared to Buttler's 32, and 38 in FC compared to 32. People who know seem to think he's the best wicketkeeper, so why is Buttler there? Not sure how it works out strategically, but I do like a proper wicket keeper, must admit, from an aesthetic point of view. Meanwhile, more issues regarding the bowling: there is the question of the wisdom of leaving Broad out of the earlier tests, as he claims Warner yet again, in the process of getting the 19th five-for of his career. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 9:11:18 GMT
I think there is something systemic about this disaster. And its the batsmen who are the problem. As Broad said-doesn't matter what the bowlers do if the batters are AO 140.
They make the same mistakes time and time again. Openers cant stay in and build a platform. Middle order wafting at every ball.
Its in their heads somehow-they have lost the ability to think like Test Cricket batsmen.
I've read all the analyses-pages of it. But unless they can muster a top team at ECB who know how to fix it, its all wasted breath.
What grieves me is to see the sheer guts and determination in the Aussie team. We have lost that-beaten as we walk on the pitch.
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Post by eor on Jan 9, 2022 0:26:34 GMT
It's not got a lot of ink amid the gloom in our press but... by declaring on Leach's hat-trick ball in the second innings it strikes me that Cummings has the makings of a very durable Aussie captain.
I mean that's just *brutal* :-)
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 9, 2022 14:49:38 GMT
I think there is something systemic about this disaster. And its the batsmen who are the problem. As Broad said-doesn't matter what the bowlers do if the batters are AO 140. They make the same mistakes time and time again. Openers cant stay in and build a platform. Middle order wafting at every ball. Its in their heads somehow-they have lost the ability to think like Test Cricket batsmen. I've read all the analyses-pages of it. But unless they can muster a top team at ECB who know how to fix it, its all wasted breath. What grieves me is to see the sheer guts and determination in the Aussie team. We have lost that-beaten as we walk on the pitch. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jan 10, 2022 23:56:00 GMT
Sorry to hear Villa got knocked out of the FA cup. (Sky Blues of course are through to the next round).
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