Sport - for discussions of all sporting events

[Deleted]

Jul 20, 2023 23:42:04 GMT mandolinist said:

Jul 20, 2023 16:33:20 GMT @isa said:

Thanks, pjw1961 , that's brilliant. I'd done a bit of research since you mentioned Harold's début last night, so knew most of the facts, but it was still lovely to see the story set out like that. Marvellous. It really was the cricketing equivalent of 'jumpers for goalposts'. Somerset have never been a fashionable club, still less so in those far off days, so it used to, and probably still does, take someone pretty exceptional to get picked for England from Somerset. Nice when it happens though.

I actually saw Bill Andrews at a Sunday League match in Yeovil in the '70s. A big, avuncular chap who jokingly used to say to people "shake the hand that bowled Bradman", which was technically true, but only happened after Bradman had already scored a double century and was getting bored with things!

Thanks again for your efforts here.

If you think Somerset is unfashionable, try supporting Gloucestershire.

Point taken, but I'm good, thanks. 

[athena]

I am sure I heard the blokes on TMS who've been chastising Stokes for his reckless declarations complaining that he batted for too long today. Seems there is no pleasing some old codgers. Didn't follow today's play closely so maybe this doesn't apply, but with Jonny B. approaching a century it would surely have been a bit mean and not good for team spirit to have yanked him off the field.

[leftieliberal]

Jul 21, 2023 19:00:49 GMT athena said:

I am sure I heard the blokes on TMS who've been chastising Stokes for his reckless declarations complaining that he batted for too long today. Seems there is no pleasing some old codgers. Didn't follow today's play closely so maybe this doesn't apply, but with Jonny B. approaching a century it would surely have been a bit mean and not good for team spirit to have yanked him off the field.

Hindsight always has 20:20 vision. My only criticism of Stokes' captaincy was declaring too early in the first innings of the first Test. The chances of getting a couple of Australian top-order batsmen out in what proved to be four overs was always low because they would certainly have sent in a night-watchman if a wicket fell. At that stage, had England continued batting they would have had seven overs to the close and should have added another 40-50 runs. An overnight declaration, or even one after an hour's play on the second morning would have been quite reasonable. 

[athena]

D'you reckon that cricket fan Sunak would lend Stokes his helicopter to fly all the players down to Southampton or wherever it's not raining? Might get him a feelgood bounce in the polls unless red wall voters were annoyed by the swap to a southern location...

[RAF]

Jul 23, 2023 11:00:00 GMT athena said:

D'you reckon that cricket fan Sunak would lend Stokes his helicopter to fly all the players down to Southampton or wherever it's not raining? Might get him a feelgood bounce in the polls unless red wall voters were annoyed by the swap to a southern location...

Haha. A novel idea. Play to start at 1pm if no further rain falls at Old Trafford. Looking at the radar on the usually extremely accurate www.weatherandradar.co.uk", England may have a window of 1-1.5 hours to get the job done.

[leftieliberal]

Jul 23, 2023 11:03:39 GMT RAF said:

Jul 23, 2023 11:00:00 GMT athena said:

D'you reckon that cricket fan Sunak would lend Stokes his helicopter to fly all the players down to Southampton or wherever it's not raining? Might get him a feelgood bounce in the polls unless red wall voters were annoyed by the swap to a southern location...

Haha. A novel idea. Play to start at 1pm if no further rain falls at Old Trafford. Looking at the radar on the usually extremely accurate www.weatherandradar.co.uk", England may have a window of 1-1.5 hours to get the job done.

Perhaps we need a new Duckworth-Lewis method as used in limited-overs cricket to decide outcomes of Tests where time is lost to rain or bad light.  

[Dave]

Jul 22, 2023 19:13:14 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jul 21, 2023 19:00:49 GMT athena said:

I am sure I heard the blokes on TMS who've been chastising Stokes for his reckless declarations complaining that he batted for too long today. Seems there is no pleasing some old codgers. Didn't follow today's play closely so maybe this doesn't apply, but with Jonny B. approaching a century it would surely have been a bit mean and not good for team spirit to have yanked him off the field.

Hindsight always has 20:20 vision. My only criticism of Stokes' captaincy was declaring too early in the first innings of the first Test. The chances of getting a couple of Australian top-order batsmen out in what proved to be four overs was always low because they would certainly have sent in a night-watchman if a wicket fell. At that stage, had England continued batting they would have had seven overs to the close and should have added another 40-50 runs. An overnight declaration, or even one after an hour's play on the second morning would have been quite reasonable. 

All of this.  I said at the time that the first day declaration would go down as one of the worst, most reckless decisions made on a Test pitch.  I think it will but obviously, take zero joy from that.  

Even so, there are signs that since the naivety of earlier in the series, Bazball is being refined into an amalgamation of itself and more 'normal' or at least, more traditional test cricket.  Methinks there is a sweet spot that involves a mix of the two, and that that mix will vary from game to game, match situation to match situation.  Get it right and England really could be on the verge of something.

The first three tests were very even, only our naivety and recklessness meant we went to Old Trafford down in the series.  We absolutely battered them in the time we had available at OT.  The Aussies, whilst being relieved to retain the urn, will know that and take notice.  I expect, that if we can find a bowler or two along the way, that the next series down under will be far more interesting than the last few.  



 

[leftieliberal]

Jul 24, 2023 9:55:46 GMT Dave said:

Jul 22, 2023 19:13:14 GMT leftieliberal said:

Hindsight always has 20:20 vision. My only criticism of Stokes' captaincy was declaring too early in the first innings of the first Test. The chances of getting a couple of Australian top-order batsmen out in what proved to be four overs was always low because they would certainly have sent in a night-watchman if a wicket fell. At that stage, had England continued batting they would have had seven overs to the close and should have added another 40-50 runs. An overnight declaration, or even one after an hour's play on the second morning would have been quite reasonable. 

All of this.  I said at the time that the first day declaration would go down as one of the worst, most reckless decisions made on a Test pitch.  I think it will but obviously, take zero joy from that.  

Even so, there are signs that since the naivety of earlier in the series, Bazball is being refined into an amalgamation of itself and more 'normal' or at least, more traditional test cricket.  Methinks there is a sweet spot that involves a mix of the two, and that that mix will vary from game to game, match situation to match situation.  Get it right and England really could be on the verge of something.

The first three tests were very even, only our naivety and recklessness meant we went to Old Trafford down in the series.  We absolutely battered them in the time we had available at OT.  The Aussies, whilst being relieved to retain the urn, will know that and take notice.  I expect, that if we can find a bowler or two along the way, that the next series down under will be far more interesting than the last few.  
 

The difference between the two teams was the catching. The Aussies hardly dropped anything; England spilled quite a few even in the two Tests we won and drew. I still would have liked to have seen Bairstow play at No. 3 without the wicket-keeping duties. If he's good enough to open in white-ball cricket, he's good enough to play at No 3 in a Test team.

[mercian]

I agree that Bairstow shouldn't keep wicket but be retained as a batsman. Foakes comes in, but who do you drop? I would have (and did) say Crawley until his last innings but it's more difficult now. I suppose it would have to be Moin but he hasn't done much wrong and it means that Root would be the only spinner. If Stokes could bowl you might just get away with replacing Anderson with Foakes. Duckett perhaps the other possibility but that would be harsh and then who would open with Crawley?

[neilj]

England after a wobble look to be keeping it together

[leftieliberal]

It's a Test match not an ODI - England bowled out for 283 in 54.4 overs is not a good result. Apart from Brook, five England batters got started but failed to post a 50 between them (the lowest score amongst them being Crawley on 22).

[neilj]

Game starting to swing England's way now, 152 for 5
This morning didn't watch the Australian innings as I had some paint to watch drying 😀
I saw some stats that it was Australia's lowest run rate in England since 1981, felt like it to

[neilj]

170/6, into the bowlers now

[mercian]

Two days for the two first innings and we're more or less all square. There's going to be some rain about but there should be time for a result. Let's just hope our batsmen don't get too reckless in the morning. Stokes himself usually tries to play himself in so they should follow his example.

[neilj]

Looking at where Australia was at the start of the day I would have expected them to have a commanding lead. But their very low run rate allowed England to deal with their middle order
They did pick up at the end
Now a finely balanced game, looking forward to tomorrow

[neilj]

This from the BBC stats department perfectly illustrates the different styles

'England have already scored more runs than Australia did in the entire morning session yesterday.

There were 54 runs scored from 26 overs (including 13 extras) with the loss of one wicket, at a rate of 2.08.

England reached 55-0 from just 9.5 overs at a rate of 5.59.'

[neilj]

Another interesting stat

'These England openers have passed 350 runs in nine innings this series. That is the most England have added for the first wicket since the 2010-11 series in Australia.

Since then England's average for the first wicket was just 21. This series it is 44.'

[neilj]

Stuart Broad to retire
He's been a great bowler and his batting always made me smile. I think in batting he was a proponent of Bazball before it was ever a thing 😀

[johntel]

On my way to the Oval, hoping for a miracle!

[johntel]

I was in two minds whether to come today, but I'm glad I did now! Woakes bowling nicely.

[leftieliberal]

Jul 31, 2023 10:38:50 GMT johntel said:

I was in two minds whether to come today, but I'm glad I did now! Woakes bowling nicely.

Sadly, my copy of Rain Alarm, which shows the radar map of rainfall over the UK and western Europe shows that rain should be falling at The Oval about now.

[johntel]

Jul 31, 2023 12:58:22 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jul 31, 2023 10:38:50 GMT johntel said:

I was in two minds whether to come today, but I'm glad I did now! Woakes bowling nicely.

Sadly, my copy of Rain Alarm, which shows the radar map of rainfall over the UK and western Europe shows that rain should be falling at The Oval about now.

Unfortunately it is, heavily, so I've given up and am heading for home. That's cricket for you - the weather has so much influence. For the first hour while there was quite heavy cloud cover the ball was moving and seaming, especially for Woakes, but as it brightened and the cloud lifted it stopped. England didn't quite have enough of the right kind of bowlers for the conditions - Wood is too fast and straight and Anderson seems to have lost his mojo. Once we reverted to the short-pitched stuff it was clear the game was up. 

[neilj]

Just one more wicket

[johntel]

Thanks, I'll take the credit for that 

I couldn't stay to the end but I saw it on TV. 

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2023 14:19:19 GMT johntel said:

Jul 31, 2023 12:58:22 GMT leftieliberal said:

Sadly, my copy of Rain Alarm, which shows the radar map of rainfall over the UK and western Europe shows that rain should be falling at The Oval about now.

Unfortunately it is, heavily, so I've given up and am heading for home. That's cricket for you - the weather has so much influence. For the first hour while there was quite heavy cloud cover the ball was moving and seaming, especially for Woakes, but as it brightened and the cloud lifted it stopped. England didn't quite have enough of the right kind of bowlers for the conditions - Wood is too fast and straight and Anderson seems to have lost his mojo. Once we reverted to the short-pitched stuff it was clear the game was up. 

I feel for you. If you had known what the weather was going to do, you could have stayed and seen it unfold in front of you.

[mercian]

Brummie Botham - Man of the match and England player of the series.

[johntel]

Jul 31, 2023 22:32:45 GMT @isa said:

Jul 31, 2023 14:19:19 GMT johntel said:

Unfortunately it is, heavily, so I've given up and am heading for home. That's cricket for you - the weather has so much influence. For the first hour while there was quite heavy cloud cover the ball was moving and seaming, especially for Woakes, but as it brightened and the cloud lifted it stopped. England didn't quite have enough of the right kind of bowlers for the conditions - Wood is too fast and straight and Anderson seems to have lost his mojo. Once we reverted to the short-pitched stuff it was clear the game was up. 

I feel for you. If you had known what the weather was going to do, you could have stayed and seen it unfold in front of you.

I would have had to leave before the end anyway because I had a family commitment. I'm gutted to have missed the denouement but at least I was able to savour the last day atmosphere.

Must say I do think Bazball has been vindicated though - all in all England had the better of the series. It'll be fascinating to see if they can keep the momentum going. I feel a bit sorry for James Anderson, he wasn't trusted to bowl more than a couple of overs yesterday and I hope he gets the opportunity to have  a proper send off a la Broad when he decides to retire. 

[mercian]

He might never get picked again, unless they take him to India as a stock bowler to keep the runs down while the spinners wheel away at the other end.

[pjw1961]

crossbat11

I have found border-line holy writ to support my Les Jackson case. Glancing through my library of ancient cricket books by chance I came across the great John Arlott's account of the 1961 cricket season ("The Australian Challenge") - a year his beloved Hampshire won the county championship for the first time, but also covering the Ashes test series. Les Jackson was recalled to the England team for the third test after a gap of 12 years since his previous cap. In writing (contemporaneously) about this Arlott gives him a pretty glowing write-up, which I quote in full:

"Leslie Jackson of Derbyshire has been summoned to join the Test Match party at Headingley, following a report that Brian Statham has a strained side ... Jackson must be a very surprised man. Since he played the only Test of his career - against New Zealand in 1949 - he has been for years as consistently accurate and dangerous as any pace-bowler in the country except, perhaps, Statham. Sir Donald Bradman, like every county batsman in England, respected his accurate, slingy pace. Yet through all those years he was never again chosen for England. In the last two seasons he has been pulled down by several injuries and his speed is not so menacing as it was. If the wicket at Headingley is at all green - which is improbable - Jackson will exploit it unfailingly; if it breaks up, his ability constantly to hit a worn spot will make him dangerous; if it is simply good for batting, he will be as steady as a rock."

Quite a compliment! As it was Jackson did well - 2/57 (Peter Burge and Ken Mackay) and 2/26 (Colin McDonald and Wally Grout). Fred Trueman took 11/88 in the match and England got their only victory of that test series.

[mercian]

This from Wikipedia
"Jackson had to wait twelve years to play his second Test, allegedly and almost certainly due to upper class prejudice by the England captain Freddie Brown in early years, and of England selector Gubby Allen later."

EDIT: I'm not sure that's true as Fred Trueman played quite a lot, though after he retired and was congratulated on being the first to 300 Test wickets he famously said "I'd have got 400 if I played all the Tests I should have done." 
As he was a long-time summariser on TMS I can hear his voice in my head saying that.