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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 10, 2021 18:06:12 GMT
@
'have a go at others on your own team...'
Oh have we got teams now? Didn't get that memo. Can I be on the red team?
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Post by barbara on Dec 10, 2021 18:07:46 GMT
For goodness sake Carfrew, I've already said I think evidence free assertions with no attempt to justify with arguments or evidence is unhelpful.
If that's what Tancred did then I think it's unhelpful.
Why are you so defensive about this? I'm not trying to be rude or unpleasant to anyobe but having lurked on the old UKPR for 6 years I have seen how unevidenced generalisations militate against open and productive discussions.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:07:50 GMT
@ 'have a go at others on your own team...' Oh have we got teams now? Didn't get that memo. Can I be on the red team? Exactly my point, it shouldn’t be like that, but some behave like it is. incidetally, you ask Colin for evidence, how often would you ask for any from your own team? |
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Dec 10, 2021 18:08:38 GMT
Westminster voting intention: LAB: 41% (+2) CON: 33% (-7) LDEM: 7% (+1) GRN: 6% (+2) via @focaldatahq, 09 - 10 Dec Chgs. w/ 30 Apr I read somewhere that 25% of 2019 con voters on this poll were DK's. |
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Post by alec on Dec 10, 2021 18:09:03 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "Alec is obviously trying to needle Colin with his comments about Boris." No she isn't. Don't be silly. Alec is restating things that were once said by other posters about the current PM.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:09:15 GMT
For goodness sake Carfrew, I've already said I think evidence free assertions with no attempt to justify with arguments or evidence is unhelpful. If that's what Tancred did then I think it's unhelpful. Why are you so defensive about this? I'm not trying to be rude or unpleasant to anyobe but having lurked on the old UKPR for 6 years I have seen how unevidenced generalisations militate against open and productive discussions. no need to project “defensiveness” I’m just pointing out it’s ok to use terms like left wing and that it’s not helpful to be biased. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:11:16 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "Alec is obviously trying to needle Colin with his comments about Boris." No she isn't. Don't be silly. Alec is restating things that were once said by other posters about the current PM. oh, silly as well as clueless? Barbara will be getting very upset. got any evidence for your assertion about Colin since it seems to be in vogue? |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 10, 2021 18:11:25 GMT
Colin
Thanks for the clarification.
I think you're wrong in your analysis but nice to keep discussions civil.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:11:48 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "Alec is obviously trying to needle Colin with his comments about Boris." No she isn't. Don't be silly. Alec is restating things that were once said by other posters about the current PM. oh, silly as well as clueless? Barbara will be getting very upset at the unpleasantness. got any evidence for your assertion about Colin since it seems to be in vogue? |
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Post by barbara on Dec 10, 2021 18:13:09 GMT
Carfrew I see no point in continuing this discussion but using a term like "left wing" was not was I was objecting to.
I won't reply again as these 1 on 1 spats are very boring for everyone else to read.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:14:37 GMT
Carfrew I see no point in continuing this discussion but using a term like "left wing" was not was I was objecting to. I won't reply again as these 1 on 1 spats are very boring for everyone else to read. well indeed I prefer cricket but a few don’t like me doing that it would seem. |
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Post by alec on Dec 10, 2021 18:18:41 GMT
Well sourced reports, since half denied by the UK, that UK officials have dsiplayed a major softening of tone on the NI Protocol talks, nd John Lichfield is also reporting that a deal is close on fish with France, with the UK set to recognise the rights of the remaining outstanding applications from French boats to fish in the 6 - 12 miles zone.
If agreeements are reached in these areas, it would suggest that there has been a major change of heart within Downing Street. Johnson perhaps has lost confidence, and can no longer wage wars on all fronts.
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Post by alec on Dec 10, 2021 18:21:23 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "got any evidence for your assertion about Colin since it seems to be in vogue?" It's all in the UKPR1 archive.
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Post by alec on Dec 10, 2021 18:22:44 GMT
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 10, 2021 18:23:33 GMT
@ 'have a go at others on your own team...' Oh have we got teams now? Didn't get that memo. Can I be on the red team? Exactly my point, it shouldn’t be like that, but some behave like it is. incidetally, you ask Colin for evidence, how often would you ask for any from your own team? As you well know Colin asks that all the time but doesn't seem to respond to well when someone asks it of him. And not so long ago I asked Steve (who politically is a lot closer to me than Colin) for evidence in relation to the covid situation. |
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Post by tancred on Dec 10, 2021 18:26:00 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter @"shall I just start making thinly disguised insulting comments about the problem with ROC people" Why deprive yourself ?. Have a word with @ tancred What do you mean? You're beginning to sound like "The Other Howard" and "Robert Newark". Where are the old bu**ers anyway? |
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Post by tancred on Dec 10, 2021 18:33:00 GMT
Colin Couldn’t agree more although I think perhaps the problem with the left is there levelling up agenda is more a levelling down with more state intervention and reliance on the state for income. Successful people are seen as a problem rather than the answer and people that have had by birth a good start in life are pick out for scorn ,particularly if they come from ethnic background that doesn’t conform to the LoC perception of what that should mean. So you equate "success" with simply having lots of money? How puerile. Success depends on many things, and money is just one factor among many. |
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Post by shevii on Dec 10, 2021 18:35:28 GMT
tancredI'm assuming Robert Newark is now Robert. I'm afraid we have to assume that TOH is no longer with us as last he posted his condition was terminal.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:36:49 GMT
Exactly my point, it shouldn’t be like that, but some behave like it is. incidetally, you ask Colin for evidence, how often would you ask for any from your own team? As you well know Colin asks that all the time but doesn't seem to respond to well when someone asks it of him. And not so long ago I asked Steve (who politically is a lot closer to me than Colin) for evidence in relation to the covid situation. yes but Covid isn’t really as ideologically aligned as something like Brexit is it. Truth is, neither side in the Brexit debate tends to check the claims of their own side overmuch. |
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Post by jimjam on Dec 10, 2021 18:39:31 GMT
Tancred,
Robert Newark is just Robert on this board and sadly ToH implied 2-3 months ago that he did not have long left to live and was not around for the last month on the penultimate thread.
By his own admission, ToH did react to Brexit bad type posts too often but typically he was one of the posters primarily engaged in polling discussions.
I fear wishing him well is too late but I for one will remember him appreciatively.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 10, 2021 18:40:18 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "got any evidence for your assertion about Colin since it seems to be in vogue?" It's all in the UKPR1 archive. Well at least you know where to look for it. |
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Post by Old Southendian on Dec 10, 2021 18:53:07 GMT
I'm afraid we have to assume that TOH is no longer with us as last he posted his condition was terminal. Oh really sorry to hear that. Can't say I agreed with him on much (anything?) but he'll be missed here, and I'm sure elsewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2021 18:53:25 GMT
Sunak, like Gove, voted for May's deal back stop an all. I would expect a closer relationship with the EU, at some risk of RUK picking up support, if he became PM. Could well see a less confrontational approach. I frequently post the YG tracker most important issue polling and Leave'16 voters have 'moved on': Boris 'Got Brexit Done'. yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country?crossBreak=ivotedtoleaveThe issue specific page would be the area to discuss the specifics of what 'closer relationship' might entail. I doubt it would be 'alignment' but a new PM in UK would also give EC-EU27 a chance to adopt a less confrontational approach (and it doesn't matter who 'started it', just saying a new PM gives the opportunity for a more constructive relationship). On a wide range of issues (eg geo-politics (Russia, China, etc), climate change and immigration) then UK and EC-most of EU27 have a lot of common purpose so it would be good to put Brexit in the past and adopt a more constructive relationship with EC-EU (IMO) Rishi is a pragmatist but that also extends to internal CON politics and hence why (IMO) closer relationship wouldn't mean 'alignment' but could well be an 'entente'. Frosty is very popular with CON members (see CON Home survey) so I'd take that as an indication that Rishi (or any PM candidate) isn't going to say they want an entente but as we saw with Starmer then what you say to get the leader's job is not necessarily what we do once you've got it  PS I wouldn't put too much into any MP who wanted to climb the greasy pole voting with the leader of the day. Rishi went on the 'payroll' in Jan'18 and it's still wise to be loyal to climb the (chaos) ladder. However, he is certainly no 'Spartan' and would IMO have quite a few ideas of how to 'Make Brexit Work' (aka using Brexit as a catalyst for change) where as Boris has (IMO) only ever seen Vote.Leave as his ticket into #10 (ie Boris is not a True Br-Leaver) |
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Post by somerjohn on Dec 10, 2021 18:59:01 GMT
I'd like to welcome a new poster who has just introduced himself on that thread. He has the unique (I think) qualification on this board of actually having personal knowledge of Johnson, rather than relying on secondary evidence. Sounds like he has a lot to offer, so I hope he will overcome his tendency "not to chip in"!
Dec 10, 2021 18:06:25 GMT dougyule said:
I've been lurking on UKPR for a decade and have greatly enjoyed the cut and thrust. Was gutted when it looked like the party was over. Though a political junkie by most standards I do not have the detailed knowledge of most posters, so tend not to chip in. I like the site because Left and Right speak civilly to one another, for the most part. I'm a tribal Labour voter who was at university at the same time as Johnson (in fact did the same course as him). I have been unable to watch or listen to BBC News since 2019 because, having watched the man for over 30 years, I simply cannot believe that so many people were taken in. My country seemed to have become a bad joke. Perhaps we are at last waking from the bad dream?
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Post by jib on Dec 10, 2021 19:03:51 GMT
I suspect whoever takes over from Johnson - surely the 1922 committee letters are starting- will inevitably seek to reconcile with the EU.
That doesn't mean rejoin, and it doesn't mean "cake and it".
But the relationship will get closer, and many of the petty rules can be ameliorated to the benefit of all.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 10, 2021 19:06:15 GMT
Tancred, Robert Newark is just Robert on this board and sadly ToH implied 2-3 months ago that he did not have long left to live and was not around for the last month on the penultimate thread. By his own admission, ToH did react to Brexit bad type posts too often but typically he was one of the posters primarily engaged in polling discussions. I fear wishing him well is too late but I for one will remember him appreciatively. And I will remember him fondly for bringing the joy of allotments on to UKPR.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2021 19:08:42 GMT
Since I'm here, my brief thoughts. I think Johnson can and will survive the current storm. But what his party have to worry about is whether him continuing will cause longer term damage to the party. He managed to win in London for two terms, but his legacy is that it's difficult to imagine a Conservative mayor of London again for some time. I reckoned he might do the same as PM - two terms then the Tory brand is trashed for a long while. There's just the possibility he might manage that in one term unless someone puts him back on a better course. Certainly possible as you point out Boris can totally trash CON 'brand'[1]. That is probably well accepted within CON MPs who obviously don't want that to happen. There are certainly at least 15% of CON MPs in seats that are at risk if Boris stays PM into next GE (ie enough to trigger a leadership contest). Modest tangent but we're now seeing LAB polling 40%+ (albeit mostly from CON'19 DK and CON 'own goals') so Corbyn didn't irreparably trash LAB brand. CON under 'new management' could potentially rebrand pretty quick but the longer CON MPs leave Boris in place then the bigger the mountain to climb for the new management. [1] Some more details from Focaldata poll. That is getting close to 'staring into the abyss' (IMO) but most of the baggage could be dumped at Boris's door. To continue the Corbyn analogy then Boris might well be persuaded to stand down at next GE (or lose his seat). Corbyn is less likely to 'go quietly' which means he might resurface as a 'problem' for Starmer in due course (revenge being a dish best served cold) but Boris will have an eye on the ££ and might well be persuaded it's in his best interest (and CON's best interest) to go back to journalism and the xCON 'gravy train' of speeches, etc (consultancy probably not his thing and the rules are being tightened on that) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2021 19:08:47 GMT
ROBERT @"What it boils down to I think is that you don't like the fact he's quite wealthy?" And of Asian heritage. A combination which has the average Lefty in churning inner conflict. Colin, you really do yourself no favours with this, "lefty this lefty that" remarks. What's an average lefty?? Or that matter an 'average righty? Not everyone on the left thinks the same just as not everyone on the right does. Politics is a spectrum. We should be able to discuss the issues, which incidentally I know you can do well, without this sort of stuff. Just lowers the tone. You're not alone but you are a regular offender. (Do respond to this if you disagree with me but please do it without recourse to stereotypes) I was reacting to tancred's onslaught today featuring xenophobic roc voters. Plus this little beauty :-"He will pretend to be kind to you while plunging the knife deeper in your back while you don't notice." describing Rishi Sunak. You might have missed Somerjohn today explaining that ROC voters haven't "the wit to read GE analysis and polling". So if you want me to take your desire for more civilised discussion here seriously, you will need to be more even handed in your sermons from the mount. Meantime expect me to respond to some of this stuff. |
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Post by jib on Dec 10, 2021 19:11:29 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter"And I will remember him fondly for bringing the joy of allotments on to UKPR. " Indeed. He certainly enjoyed the allotment!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2021 19:17:02 GMT
Colin Thanks for the clarification. I think you're wrong in your analysis but nice to keep discussions civil. Thanks. It is indeed. Its not hard. |
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