8-Dec-2021 : LAB: 40 / CON: 34 / LDEM: 10 / GRN: 4

[tancred]

Dec 10, 2021 15:38:38 GMT steve said:

Robert
Is that the same Sunak who in the same week got planning permission for a new sports complex at his grade one listed mansion and cut universal credit for hundreds of thousands by £20 per week .
The same Sunak whose brexitanian policies have cost UK science over £8 billion in research grants.
The same Sunak whose massive wealth primarily achieved by marrying into a billionaire clan protects him entirely from any disastrous consequences of his support for brexit..

You don't have to be be a card carrying member of Britain's first to be a far right brexitanian delusionist.

I find Sunak to be the archetypal 'smiling assassin'. He will pretend to be kind to you while plunging the knife deeper in your back while you don't notice. 

[Danny]

Dec 10, 2021 15:06:51 GMT steve said:

From the Guardian

Ferguson added that the figure 10,000 admissions per day could be reached “sometime in January” but noted the impact on deaths was less clear. He also added the caveat that the projection was based on assumptions around the variant’s ability to evade existing protection, and the premise that Omicron was similar to Delta in terms of the severity of disease it causes. "

Which given all available data Showsit isn't South African data suggests it only causes a fraction of the severe cases of previous variants makes the whole article primarily alarmist click bait.

Given Prof Ferguson's thirty+ year career of massive exaggeration , but with such wide parameters that he could claim 2000%+ exaggerations as within margin of error it might be appropriate if media stopped going to him as their default merchant of gloom.

What that Ferguson who went to visit his girlfriend because having had covid it was perfectly safe to go about normal life? Who would not keep the rest of us who have had it - by now the majority - imprisoned for the rest of our lives?

The Ferguson whose modelling has ALWAYS grossly over estimated the dangers of covid and has as a result cost lives because we planned for the wrong thing?

[steve]

Colin

You're own biases peeking through there .

Given that my grandfather was an Algerian Spaniard , my great aunt was Indian and I am routinely assumed to be Bangladeshi and I come from Jewish family background and am married to a red haired woman of Irish Catholic ancestry , the combination of which has produced two tremendously attractive children who everyone assume at first glance are Romanian,together with my West Indian Rasta foster son.

We've got our own ethnic mixing pot going on here and we don't even have to leave the house.

I have no issues with Sunak's ethnicity.

[Danny]

Dec 10, 2021 14:29:20 GMT js said:

Nearly fell of my chair. This, in the Express?!

Et tu, Brute?

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1534017/UK-trade-data-post-Brexit-GDP-EU-evg

The article says Uk trade is deteriorating. But the proposed solution for this is to make new trade deals. A deal might be an enabler for new tade, but by itself it is nowhere near sufficient.  There has to be something to sell which can economically be made in the UK. There have to be contacts. These arent going to appear by magic.

[tancred]

Dec 10, 2021 15:14:51 GMT mercian said:

Dec 10, 2021 12:27:03 GMT tancred said:

The far-right issue is another thing altogether.  British xenophobia is directed mainly against other Europeans, while in several European countries there is a backlash against mass immigration from outside Europe. 

So in your view there are two types of xenophobia, one which is against fellow Europeans which is bad, and one against mass immigration from outside Europe which is not so bad?  Isn't that racist? i.e. its worse to be against white people than non-white? It's a complex area that needs to be thought through before you do the knee-jerk 'British is bad' thing.

I'm against xenophobia of any kind.  But I don't like the dressing up of Brexit as something different from what it was.

[Deleted]

steve

@"I have no issues with Sunak's ethnicity."

Glad to hear it-but you misunderstood me ( probably my fault)

I think there is a general assumption on the Left that ethnic Asians ( and other UK ethnic minorities) vote Labour - Should vote Labour because being often in lower income groups, and not being white skinned, they are -of course-subject to Tory economic and racial discrimination.

So when a Tory Asian turns up in a prominent position I have the impression that the LOC can become conflicted and tend to treat such an individual, if not explicitly, then implicitly-as a sort of class traitor .

[catmanjeff]

Dec 10, 2021 16:16:25 GMT mercian said:

Dec 10, 2021 15:54:28 GMT catmanjeff said:

mercian Magnus has won - 7.5 - 3.5.

He's been unstoppable.

Thanks, I've been forgetting to follow it. More wrapped up in Ashes.  I'll look at the games - thanks.  That's the most decisive WC match for many years I think.

Yes.

Magnus won four and lost zero. the last time that happened Capablanca beat Lasker (1921).

[lululemonmustdobetter]

@ Colin

I think there is a general assumption on the Left that ethnic Asians ( and other UK ethnic minorities) vote Labour - Should vote Labour because being often in lower income groups, and not being white skinned, they are -of course-subject to Tory economic and racial discrimination.

Do you actually have any evidence to support your view?

[turk]

Colin

Couldn’t agree more although I think perhaps the problem with the left is there levelling up agenda is more a levelling down with more state intervention and reliance on the state for income. Successful people are seen as a problem rather than the answer and people that have had by birth a good start in life are pick out for scorn ,particularly if they come from ethnic background that doesn’t conform to the LoC perception of what that should mean.

[Deleted]

tancred

@"British xenophobia is directed mainly against other Europeans,"

You might find some actual data informative.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/03/17/talk-of-a-nonexistent-tide-of-hate-against-eu-migrants-does-nothing-to-help-their-cause/

and given your intense interest in Xenophobia you might like to have a look at its manifestations across Europe , as well as UK?

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/xenophobia-eastern-europe-refugees/410800/

[hireton]

Dec 10, 2021 14:28:40 GMT tancred said:

Dec 10, 2021 14:10:18 GMT t7g4 said:

This is where the Lib Dems may still cease to be significant in UK politics in my opinion. 

Time will tell about the UK/EU in the future.

The significance of the LibDems is that they are the only political party that still believes in the EU as an institution. The problem for the LibDems is the usual one: the electoral system. I keep hoping that Labour would be grown-up enough to endorse electoral reform but I keep being disappointed. This is why the best result in the next general election would be a hung parliament with Labour as the largest party - this would open the door to possibilities.

The only GB-wide party may be.  The SNP and Scottish Green Party does ( possibly the English and Welsh Green Party as well)

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2021 16:47:18 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

@ Colin

I think there is a general assumption on the Left that ethnic Asians ( and other UK ethnic minorities) vote Labour - Should vote Labour because being often in lower income groups, and not being white skinned, they are -of course-subject to Tory economic and racial discrimination.

Do you actually have any evidence to support your view?

I don't.

When I have a mo I will go try find some .

Do you think the Labour Party does NOT see ethnic minorities as natural Labour voters ?

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Dec 10, 2021 16:49:53 GMT turk said:

Colin

Couldn’t agree more although I think perhaps the problem with the left is there levelling up agenda is more a levelling down with more state intervention and reliance on the state for income. Successful people are seen as a problem rather than the answer and people that have had by birth a good start in life are pick out for scorn ,particularly if they come from ethnic background that doesn’t conform to the LoC perception of what that should mean.

Same to you Turk as to Colin - or shall I just start making thinly disguised insulting comments about the problem with ROC people, like they are just out for them selves and perfectly willing to allow their fellow man to surfer because they have an in built arrogance etc etc etc

[somerjohn]

Colin: "I think there is a general assumption on the Left that ethnic Asians ( and other UK ethnic minorities) vote Labour "

I think that's a general assumption for anyone who has the wit to read GE analysis and polling on the matter. Which might exclude a lot of rightwingers, thus validating your statement, of course.

"Labour performed better than the Conservatives amongst ethnic minority groups. Ipsos MORI estimates Labour won the votes of 64% of all Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) voters, while 20% voted for the Conservatives and 12% for the Lib Dems.

Seats that had large BME populations at the 2011 Census tended to vote Labour. Labour won in 113 seats that had a larger-than-average BME population, while the Conservatives won 53 and the Lib Dems four."

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/ge2019-how-did-demographics-affect-the-result/

[Deleted]

lululemonmustdobetter

@"shall I just start making thinly disguised insulting comments about the problem with ROC people"

Why deprive yourself ?. Have a word with @ tancred

[Deleted]

somerjohn

I wasnt really refering to the actual voting tendency of ethnic minorities. As you say that is a matter of record.

I was suggesting a tendency of expectation on the Left.

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2021 17:06:33 GMT James E said:

Do you "churn with inner conflict" at people who don't vote the same way as you, Colin?

I do-I do.

But I find Gaviscon helps.

[steamdrivenandy]

I wonder which way ROC people have a tendency to assume ethnic minorities will vote?

[alec]

t7g4 - "Freedom of movement should be a basic human right globally..."

I think I am correct in stating that it already is. You can move however you like. Walk, hop, handstands. Anything goes.
My understanding is that there remains some debate regarding where exactly you can move to and from, however, but the details are complicated.

[Old Southendian]

Lapsed UKPR lurker here. Glad to discover it's not completely dead, I hadn't looked in for a few months and thought I'd find out the reaction to latest news. I was about to say that I think the tone here is generally better than that I last remember on UKPR, but just the last few posts suggest maybe things haven't changed that much. Still, one great advantage in this site is that (hopefully) the Brexit wars can mostly be consigned to a separate thread. Please. Keep it on polling/elections and political fall-out from them, that's the fun part.

Since I'm here, my brief thoughts. I think Johnson can and will survive the current storm. But what his party have to worry about is whether him continuing will cause longer term damage to the party. He managed to win in London for two terms, but his legacy is that it's difficult to imagine a Conservative mayor of London again for some time. I reckoned he might do the same as PM - two terms then the Tory brand is trashed for a long while. There's just the possibility he might manage that in one term unless someone puts him back on a better course.

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Dec 10, 2021 16:57:01 GMT colin said:

Dec 10, 2021 16:47:18 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

@ Colin

I think there is a general assumption on the Left that ethnic Asians ( and other UK ethnic minorities) vote Labour - Should vote Labour because being often in lower income groups, and not being white skinned, they are -of course-subject to Tory economic and racial discrimination.

Do you actually have any evidence to support your view?

I don't.

When I have a mo I will go try find some .

Do you think the Labour Party does NOT see ethnic minorities as natural Labour voters ?

Ah the old Colin gambit. Make a comment that's not substantiated by evidence, get someone to respond and then selectively pick out comments from their response and totally misrepresent them. Nah not for me - how about you provide some evidence to support your view as the basis for discussion. 

[Danny]

gosh... zoe phone app usually leads in reporting trends in cases and right now it is reporting no significant rise in cases.Yet government panicking about rising cases. What rising cases?

Meanwhile government communications chappy has offered his resignation to Johnson, who was refused. Seems he is also indispensable to Johnson.

[alec]

Just skimmed today's offerings, but there seems to be some consideration of the Conservative succession, for some reason.

In light of that, I'll repost this, from the dying embers of the last general thread posted in response to turk. He didn't like it, so I think I've done something right:

"[turk] - "I suspect that myself and Colin both share the same opinion regarding Boris neither of us liked Johnson and both of us have stated that on the other site many times. However the good thing about Johnson is that people view him as a personality in his own right and not necessarily as a member of a collective cabinet."

Interesting take. colin used to claim Johnson would be transformational, that he 'gets it', or whatever. Other blue supporters on here were equally impressed with Johnson's 'New Model Tories', levelling up and whatnot.

What was it? Johnson the CEO, Gove the secretary, Sunak the Treasurer? Or was it Johnson the lying git, Gove the backstabber, Sunak the penny pinching road block to reform? There have been so many versions of this I forget.

Before that, Theresa May understood the plight of the 'just about managing' and the 'left behinds', before making a total hash of everything, and before that, it was Cameron who was the new, transformational face of modern Conservatism, before initiating 10 years of pitiless austerity and the degradation of the social sector that we are all still suffering from.

So yes, carry on. Raise the new standard, the clean skin who will be the next Tory champion. The one you can all flock round and promise will be the True Messiah to lead us from this desert, just like the last three.

One day, even you might wake up to see the pattern."

[Mark]

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (+2)
CON: 33% (-7)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
GRN: 6% (+2)

via @focaldatahq, 09 - 10 Dec Chgs. w/ 30 Apr

[barbara]

Dec 10, 2021 16:14:09 GMT colin said:

ROBERT

@"What it boils down to I think is that you don't like the fact he's quite wealthy?"

And of Asian heritage. A combination which has the average Lefty in churning inner conflict.

Colin, 
you really do yourself no favours with this, "lefty this lefty that" remarks. What's an average lefty?? Or that matter an 'average righty?
Not everyone on the left thinks the same just as not everyone on the right does. Politics is a spectrum. We should be able to discuss the issues, which incidentally I know you can do well, without this sort of stuff. Just lowers the tone. 
You're not alone but you are a regular offender. 
(Do respond to this if you disagree with me but please do it without recourse to stereotypes)

[barbara]

Dec 10, 2021 16:49:53 GMT turk said:

Colin

Couldn’t agree more although I think perhaps the problem with the left is there levelling up agenda is more a levelling down with more state intervention and reliance on the state for income. Successful people are seen as a problem rather than the answer and people that have had by birth a good start in life are pick out for scorn ,particularly if they come from ethnic background that doesn’t conform to the LoC perception of what that should mean.

What's the point of having this discussion board if people simply bring their pre conceptions of the other side. People of both right and left are individuals with some shared views and lots of different ones. Lazy stuff.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 10, 2021 17:43:02 GMT barbara said:

Dec 10, 2021 16:14:09 GMT colin said:

ROBERT

@"What it boils down to I think is that you don't like the fact he's quite wealthy?"

And of Asian heritage. A combination which has the average Lefty in churning inner conflict.

Colin, 
you really do yourself no favours with this, "lefty this lefty that" remarks. What's an average lefty?? Or that matter an 'average righty?
Not everyone on the left thinks the same just as not everyone on the right does. Politics is a spectrum. We should be able to discuss the issues, which incidentally I know you can do well, without this sort of stuff. Just lowers the tone. 
You're not alone but you are a regular offender. 
(Do respond to this if you disagree with me but please do it without recourse to stereotypes)

it may be true that it can be hard to determine what left might be, but that’s a legitimate avenue for discussion.

on a polling site, which demographics and political groupings hold which views and why is not lowering the tone, it is very much what the site is about.

And before you talk about lowering the tone, stop being so biased and have a go at others on your own team like Alec for calling people “clueless” etc.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 10, 2021 17:51:46 GMT barbara said:

Dec 10, 2021 16:49:53 GMT turk said:

Colin

Couldn’t agree more although I think perhaps the problem with the left is there levelling up agenda is more a levelling down with more state intervention and reliance on the state for income. Successful people are seen as a problem rather than the answer and people that have had by birth a good start in life are pick out for scorn ,particularly if they come from ethnic background that doesn’t conform to the LoC perception of what that should mean.

What's the point of having this discussion board if people simply bring their pre conceptions of the other side. People of both right and left are individuals with some shared views and lots of different ones. Lazy stuff.

tancred just made the claim that we are more racist than the EU folk. Is there any evidence for that? You think that’s cool?

[barbara]

"it may be true that it can be hard to determine what left might be, but that’s a legitimate avenue for duscussion

on a polling site, which demographics and political groupings hold which views and why is not lowering the tonem it is very much what the sure is about.

And before you talk about lowering the time, stop being so biased and have a go at others on your own team like Alec for calling people “clueless” etc."

Carfrew,
first I did say that Colin is not alone. I don't like any of this simple stereotyping.
Second I completely agree that discussions about left right and centre and extremes in politics are completely appropriate for this site. That's not what this was (and others do it too, before you come back at me). It was a lazy generalised statement with no evidence or examples. Its sole purpose seemed to be to needle other posters.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 10, 2021 18:01:24 GMT barbara said:

"it may be true that it can be hard to determine what left might be, but that’s a legitimate avenue for duscussion

on a polling site, which demographics and political groupings hold which views and why is not lowering the tonem it is very much what the sure is about.

And before you talk about lowering the time, stop being so biased and have a go at others on your own team like Alec for calling people “clueless” etc."

Carfrew,
first I did say that Colin is not alone. I don't like any of this simple stereotyping.
Second I completely agree that discussions about left right and centre and extremes in politics are completely appropriate for this site. That's not what this was (and others do it too, before you come back at me). It was a lazy generalised statement with no evidence or examples. Its sole purpose seemed to be to needle other posters.

again, look at your own team. Alec is obviously trying to needle Colin with his comments about Boris. And also, people don’t tend to gang up on people so much on this board.