8-Dec-2021 : LAB: 40 / CON: 34 / LDEM: 10 / GRN: 4

[mercian]

Dec 19, 2021 1:22:16 GMT oldnat said:

Mercian

I think you miss the point of my comment. That the continued comfort of ourselves and those we know is not a justification for policies that negatively affect others - unless one is extraordinarily selfish, of course.

While the Benthamite philosophy of "the greatest good for the greatest number" does have merit, it lacks the concomitant moral principle that the significant extent of harm inflicted on a minority does not justify the self-satisfied maintenance of the status quo for some.

So what evidence do you have that significant harm is being inflicted on anyone because of Brexit?  And don't say something like 'Oh, it's slightly more difficult to travel to Europe'.  There will be some businesses that suffer - those over-dependent on EU trade that didn't take advantage of the 5 YEARS they have had to prepare - and those individuals working for those companies who didn't have the wit to jump ship will be able to take advantage of the labour shortage that we now have.


Life is about ups and downs. Covid has had a much bigger impact than Brexit. My daughter runs a hotel in Blackpool and has struggled at times financially because of Covid, but she doesn't whine about it. She just gets on.  People need to grow a pair (if one is still allowed to say that).

[oldnat]

I've seen a number of suggestions on Twitter that Sunak was in California to meet with US healthcare providers. Suspicions that they might concern increased contracting out of NHS England (and under new UK law, the NHS services elsewhere in the UK as well) provision to private companies might seem reasonable.

However, according to the Treasury, Sunak was simply undertaking the job of the Health Secretary for England and "joined a roundtable with healthcare firms to hear about a new early stage cancer detection technology that is currently being rolled out to NHS patients this year that screens for the top 50 cancers with just a bloody sample which has the potential to catch cancers earlier and more safely." (Mirror)

Seems strange.

[oldnat]

Mercian

So your daughter has "grown a pair"? Was she disturbed by that?

[mercian]

Hoho.

[statgeek]

Dec 18, 2021 23:51:41 GMT mercian said:

It's you lot (Rejoiners/Remoaners) who keep banging on about it.

Yup. We'll shut up about it when it's a success.

[eor]

Dec 19, 2021 1:22:19 GMT mercian said:

Case numbers are irrelevant. What matters is deaths, and to a lesser extent hospitalisations. Though caution is sensible, as far as I know these aren't rising much (yet).

I agree the latter are the key metrics.

But waiting until they are concerning is, by definition, far too late to do anything about what is causing them them to be concerning (ie the spread of cases). 

So yes, whilst a rise in cases isn't necessarily cause for alarm at all, at the same time waiting until people die before saying "gee, should we do something to stop people getting sick?" is a bit witless too. 

[moby]

Dec 18, 2021 22:27:03 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

Dec 18, 2021 22:21:09 GMT jib said:

Not quite sure what Frost ever achieved beyond a sausage war with the EU.

Hopefully will mean a more grown up relationship with the Federal EU now.

Are there different types of EU now then JIB?

I'd vote for any type of EU rather than the mob we have governing us now. If they're what was meant by taking back control, I've never felt so out of control in three score years and ten.
 

This with bells on. The idea that the UK would become a new Singapore with low tax and low regulation off the shore of Europe is a fantasy. Brexiters won the referendum but they have lost our future. The country was split and the Union itself is fractured. There is no way forward  because people like me hate this country now  because of the referendum and the future direction planned for us. We will always be an Island with a bloc of neighbours we have much in common with. The way forward for us was integration into the bigger project. I don't give a fig about national sovereignty; nationalism is a suspect emotion based on childish, rather nostalgic values.  I hate Westminster and the suffocating English class system far more than any European project. Having people like Frost in public office is an insult to our future and the future of the next generation. His resignation is perhaps a sign we are changing direction again and I may start to feel a tad less shame about where I come from when I travel abroad.

[steve]

Attachment DeletedJust to assist our brexitanian friends who are in the midst of a existential crisis between fantasy and reality.

[steve]

EOR
Clearly it's a good idea to want to stop people getting ill, even if that illness transpires in the vast majority of cases to be a cold, it's how you go about it that's relevant.

Rinse and repeat of the failed responses before is likely to have the same marginal outcomes to mitigate spread while having disastrous unintended but entirely predictable consequences.

You have a firm grasp of statistics and can no doubt work out the consequences of a lock down where hundreds of thousands are already exposed and where millions will need to remain in the community working to avoid disaster.
It's a policy of locking the currently well up with those already exposed.
Utterly pointless unless the aim is to get confined groups to receive a greater viral load.
In short order you would be better off going to work.
Just get on with the booster programme and work on the assumption that real world data on the severity of the variant is right, rather than hysterical dystopian visions of what could, but almost certainly won't happen.

[moby]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/18/brexit-ministers-shock-resignation-leaves-boris-johnson-reeling
"At a conference last month he said: “I am very happy that free Britain, or at least merry England, is probably now the freest country in the world as regards Covid restrictions. No mask rules, no vaccine passports, and long may it remain so.”

The lunatic fringe brought into central Govmt and who have been allowed to make decisions on all our futures. Never forget.

[moby]

Attachment Deleted

[steamdrivenandy]

On reflection it's likely that Frost didn't mention his area of responsibility as a reason for resignation because that would immediately draw attention to it and suggest he was leaving because he'd failed. Suggesting other areas were the cause is an attempt to draw attention away from his brief.

It will be interesting to see who Johnson appoints in his stead as that will give a steer as to whether he's doubling down , not willing to wrestle with his right wing, or willing to risk their opprobrium and mellow the government's Brexit.

Thinking tactically, if you've lost a fair chunk of support due to 'scandals', it may be time to try and hook some of the lost left wing Tories who were lost over the last few years and bring them back to the fold for the next GE. The right wing sense this and that's why they're making so much 'noise' at present.

[steve]

Has the oven ready deal now been defrosted?

[alec]

mercian - "It's you lot (Rejoiners/Remoaners) who keep banging on about it."

Really? Have you read the Conservative Clean Global Brexit groups leaked Whatsapp chat about this? The swivel eyed loons are utterly obsessed with Brexit and the EU, even to the point where Liz Truss culdn't bring herself to describe the EU member states as friends. This isn't going away for Conservative obsessives any time soon.

"The disaster that you go on about hasn't affected me or anyone I know in the slightest."

Good for you. Maybe if Sunak wasn't planning on the loss of over £150bn tax revenue over the lifetime of a normal parliament you might have had one of those 40 new hospitals actually built?

I can accept you think the Brexit disaster doesn't affect you, but it does, inevitably. More and more people are starting to realise this, and polling reflects it, which is rather the point.

[alec]

From Peter Foster of the FT, this morning -

"Frost resigned, he says, because the #revolution is stalling. Britannia is still chained.

And like all failing ideological revolutions it’d be just fine, if only it was prosecuted more zealously.

Then people would understand its cleansing force was good for them.!

[hireton]

Dec 18, 2021 23:55:05 GMT jib said:

alec

I'm not arguing that there won't be a 4% hit.

I've discussed this previously.

The test for me is standard of living and life satisfaction in the UK in 20-30 years, not maximising corporate gain.

A 4% hit to GDP and the consequential tax loss is a hit to all of us and our standard of living. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

[hireton]

Dec 19, 2021 7:55:52 GMT steve said:

Has the oven ready deal now been defrosted?

Yes and it turns out to be a turkey waiting to be stuffed.

[jib]

hireton

As I said, I want a move away from the cheap labour model that benefits the big high profit business model. I really don't care if they're complaining of short term labour shortages and having to pay more. A situation conflated with COVID in any case, they're just going to start focusing on retention of staff (and that means more than just paying more, it means training and progression).

[domjg]

Dec 19, 2021 5:49:52 GMT moby said:

Dec 18, 2021 22:27:03 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

Are there different types of EU now then JIB?

I'd vote for any type of EU rather than the mob we have governing us now. If they're what was meant by taking back control, I've never felt so out of control in three score years and ten.
 

This with bells on. The idea that the UK would become a new Singapore with low tax and low regulation off the shore of Europe is a fantasy. Brexiters won the referendum but they have lost our future. The country was split and the Union itself is fractured. There is no way forward  because people like me hate this country now  because of the referendum and the future direction planned for us. We will always be an Island with a bloc of neighbours we have much in common with. The way forward for us was integration into the bigger project. I don't give a fig about national sovereignty; nationalism is a suspect emotion based on childish, rather nostalgic values.  I hate Westminster and the suffocating English class system far more than any European project. Having people like Frost in public office is an insult to our future and the future of the next generation. His resignation is perhaps a sign we are changing direction again and I may start to feel a tad less shame about where I come from when I travel abroad.

moby Absolutely. An attempt was made to impose extremism on us all. One that brought me to the brink of completely rejecting my country of birth and an understanding of how nations divide into warring camps. Good has come from it in that my eyes have been fully opened to the social and cultural mess that England really is with the preposterous class system and levels of poverty and inequality higher than other Western European states. Despite having my EU citizenship forcibly revoked and the frustrated rage I’ve felt at times it’s been liberating learning to feel far more European and far less British/English.

[alec]

jib - what you don't seem to appreciate is that without stronger labour bargaining rights, any improvement in take home pay (which is now very limited/negative for many workers, given inflation is already at 5%) will be temporry at best.

Rising wages is a cost, which is paid by everyone. Permanent increases in living standards are only achieved through structural reform.

[domjg]

Dec 18, 2021 23:51:41 GMT mercian said:

Dec 18, 2021 23:27:30 GMT alec said:

Cameron called the referendum to stop his party 'banging on and on about Europe', but I now suspect that even leaving Europe won't stop them banging on and on about Europe.

It's you lot (Rejoiners/Remoaners) who keep banging on about it.  The disaster that you go on about hasn't affected me or anyone I know in the slightest. Now obviously that's an unrepresentative sample, but it does suggest that this terrible apocalypse that you seem to imagine is just that - imagination.  This is not to say that some people haven't suffered, but others will have benefitted as happens with every change.  The main subject of current affairs conversation is of course Covid, followed at some distance by the Paterson affair.

mercian - I’m alright Jack eh? I guess you and your boomer buddies are not young, working age, relying on exporting to the EU (don’t give me nonsense about 5 years to prepare. Prepare for what as no terms were known till the last min and why should businesses be deliberately hobbled by their own gvt for only ideological reasons) working as a contractor in different EU countries or have family connections across Europe? 

[robert]

Is anyone else a little disappointed that this place is becoming more and more like Facebook, with the posting of meaningless memes?

mercian

A fine series of posts just now, with which I agree. The only people who can't seem to let go of Brexit are a small proportion of remainers, most of whom seem to be here. Go to the pub and no one wants to talk about it. The rest of the country has moved on. Life has moved on.

alec

As doomsayer in chief I see that with Frosts resignation you have a new line in conspiracy theories. Your predictions of shortages in the shops leading up to Christmas have not come true. 6 days to go and the shelves are fully stocked. As for the HGV driver shortage, well it's clearly being managed by business. And also quite clear to see now, that the petrol shortage was manufactured by a section of industry, aided by an idiotic media, for its own ends.

Covid

Apparently 30% of Londoners are stupid (unjabbed) and at much higher risk of becoming seriously Ill, than the 70% who have taken some responsibility for their personal wellbeing. Shouldn't there be some kind of medical facility for stupid? Lunatic asylums anyone?
Personally, I'm very much in favour of making life as difficult as possible for this irresponsible section of society, so fully in favour of vaccine passports for all public indoor places, including shops, jobs and transport. Yes, I know, it puts me at odds with the party I tend to support.

[jib]

robert

Excellent post, particularly around making like more difficult for the unvaccinated!

[jib]

Dec 19, 2021 8:42:25 GMT alec said:

jib - what you don't seem to appreciate is that without stronger labour bargaining rights, any improvement in take home pay (which is now very limited/negative for many workers, given inflation is already at 5%) will be temporry at best.

Rising wages is a cost, which is paid by everyone. Permanent increases in living standards are only achieved through structural reform.

alec

I don't envisage a perpetual Conservative Government and fully expect more progressive alternatives to become popular again!

I think Frost's resignation is partly because of frustration that a hard right model isn't being implemented. Brexit certainly wasn't a green light for Steve Baker - Rees Mogg world view.

[domjg]

Dec 19, 2021 8:46:17 GMT robert said:

Is anyone else a little disappointed that this place is becoming more and more like Facebook, with the posting of meaningless memes?

mercian

A fine series of posts just now, with which I agree. The only people who can't seem to let go of Brexit are a small proportion of remainers, most of whom seem to be here. Go to the pub and no one wants to talk about it. The rest of the country has moved on. Life has moved on.

alec

As doomsayer in chief I see that with Frosts resignation you have a new line in conspiracy theories. Your predictions of shortages in the shops leading up to Christmas have not come true. 6 days to go and the shelves are fully stocked. As for the HGV driver shortage, well it's clearly being managed by business. And also quite clear to see now, that the petrol shortage was manufactured by a section of industry, aided by an idiotic media, for its own ends.

Covid

Apparently 30% of Londoners are stupid (unjabbed) and at much higher risk of becoming seriously Ill, than the 70% who have taken some responsibility for their personal wellbeing. Shouldn't there be some kind of medical facility for stupid? Lunatic asylums anyone?
Personally, I'm very much in favour of making life as difficult as possible for this irresponsible section of society, so fully in favour of vaccine passports for all public indoor places, including shops, jobs and transport. Yes, I know, it puts me at odds with the party I tend to support.

robert “go to the pub and no one wants to talk about it” - Could that be that all your mates in the pub are brexiters and no one wants to talk about mistakes they’ve made  I’m glad if leave voters are no longer paying attention. They won’t notice/care when gravity wins over and future governments take us back into close alignment with the EU by stealth We’re still paying close attention buddy and you underestimate how many of us there are..

[jib]

domjg

Yes, the Desperados, banished to the political wilderness once Brexit happened, huddle round the camp fire* 🔥 to plan the revolution and restore their beloved superstate 🇨🇰

* alternatively, political hot air

[domjg]

Dec 19, 2021 9:14:17 GMT jib said:

domjg

Yes, the Desperados, banished to the political wilderness once Brexit happened, huddle round the camp fire* 🔥 to plan the revolution and restore their beloved superstate 🇨🇰

* alternatively, political hot air

jib Political wilderness? Is that why ‘wrong to leave’ is always higher in polling questions on Brexit? You’ve screwed us over and by hook or crook that’s going to be at least partially reversed over the coming years. You wait and see what our alignment will be with the EU in five years. As PTRP never tired of saying, reality takes care of itself. Does it bother you being on the same side as Baker, Rees Mogg and Dorries?

You’re very keen to emphasise the very outdated ‘superstate’ idea which was never relevant for the UK anyway. Could it be because that’s all you’ve got? You often give the impression you’re trying to convince yourself more than anyone else jib

[Deleted]

robert

@"Is anyone else a little disappointed that this place is becoming more and more like Facebook, with the posting of meaningless memes?"

Increasingly like the old place.  

[Deleted]

domjg

@"PTRP never tired of saying"

Very true !

[steve]

Latest indicators are that 90% of those most sick in hospital with covid, using the greatest resources, are unvaccinated.

Rather than wittering on about locking up the vaccinated population, why not focus attention on the terminally hard of thinking vaccine refusers.