Energy Markets and Net Zero

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 13, 2022 13:35:11 GMT johntel said:

I did my bit yesterday by switching off the hot water between 5 and 7pm - now I await notification from British Gas as to how much my Peak Save discount will be.

It was a bit galling to look out of the window and see the street lit up like the Blackpool illuminations - no-one round here seem to be skimping on the Xmas lights this year despite the hike in the cost of electricity.

Looking at gridwatch data for yesterday then the peak does look a bit flatter (see attachment). The noticeable drop between 6-7pm is more likely to be large industrial users than gen.pub though. I'm not sure if NG will publish a verdict on their 'test' run but given we didn't fire up more coal plants (ie still have some supply reserves on standby) then looks like we can survive 'cold dunkelflaute' periods across NW Europe this Winter. It would still be great if France could get more of it's nuclear fleet back online and the wind picked up a bit though as that will bring the price of electricity down.

Attachment Deleted

[lens]

Dec 13, 2022 13:37:57 GMT birdseye said:

Hasnt the british attempt at a battery factory gone under already?

Last I heard, not quite yet - still clinging on after an injection of cash. But I wouldn't put any of my money near it yet......

I suspect the project will (eventually) go ahead, though likely the current company will fail and someone else will take over the assets and take it to fruition. Does make me wonder if the money to be made on batteries is now (whilst demand is far higher than supply), and by the time this should eventually get built we'll be heading to battery oversupply and falling prices?

[alec]

"Something we should copy: EU climate action: provisional agreement reached on Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (CBAM)"

Funny thing, that. There was a time when Mr Poppy routinely lectured on how advanced the UK was on this and how Brexit would enable us to 'lead the way'. The fallacies of this argument were pointed out at the time, but there you go. Reality has a way of catching up with you.

[leftieliberal]

Some useful figures for electricity use for various domestic appliances: www.theguardian.com/money/2022/dec/13/does-a-kettle-use-more-electricity-than-a-tv-power-use

I have a Russell-Hobbs kettle which inside it has red plastic level markers for 1, 2, and 3 cups; a useful feature for ensuring that you don't heat more water than you need.

[alec]

Mr Poppy - don't be so touchy. You really did talk about the UK leading on carbon border adjustment taxes at one stage, citing that as an example of a potential Brexit win. I'm sure you remember that. It's not a vendetta to remind people of what they once said.

On the wider issue, this speaks to the central problem the UK has had since 2016. In so many areas we've fallen behind, not because it was inevitable, but much more because Brexit took our entire government bandwidth for so long. We didn't progress in such areas because we were all hands to the pump trying to sort out Brexit. The opportunity cost on the 2016 - 2021 period will probably end up being identified as the biggest hit from Brexit, I would suspect.

[alec]

Mr Poppy - don't go there. Let's just agree that we have different views of history.

[Mr Poppy]

Global Stilling - a load of hot air from Climate Delayers IMO

The recent bouts of 'cold dunkelflaute' weather have brought Global Terrestrial Stilling back up as an issue given UK is making a 'big bet' on Wind.

However, the estimates are:
- "country’s average wind speed expected to drop by 2% to 3% by 2050"*
- perhaps 10% by 2100

So, taking 10% reduction in wind (power) then that can be compensated for by building 11% more** Wind Farms which means the future 'cost' of wind should be assumed to be 11% higher in 2100 - by which time all the wind farms that we've built, or will build in the coming decade, would have had multiple lifecycles (eg replacement of blades, turbines, etc).

Perhaps other stuff becomes a cheaper source of energy by 2100 (or 2050) but we can't assume that - we have to base our plan on what we know works and what costs we can be fairly confident of (eg the very likely reduced cost of hydrogen storage in the future, once we hit various criteria discussed previously).

UK and a few other countries have a massive 'natural' comparative advantage in Wind (and tidal, but not solar). We also need 'base load' power (eg 'new' nuclear and/or tidal with pumped hydro or battery smoothing) but Global Stilling does not mean we should delay in rolling out a massive amount of new wind farms in UK (see CON HMG or LAB plans to do so). 

* Plenty of sources that folks can look up for themselves but I'll repost the link I posted on the main thread
www.theweek.co.uk/news/environment/958900/global-stilling-where-has-all-the-wind-gone

** Slightly simplistic due to other factors but provided we also build sufficient storage then 111% x 90% = 100% 

[eor]

Hello energy folk. I have a question I'd appreciate your insight on if I may!

Since moving house, we have smart meters for the first time, and I want to get one of those gadgets that gives us detail, cost per day in £ being the bare minimum we'd want. Having had a look on amazon etc it seems there is quite the spread, with some devices for £30 and others for £100+. What I'm wondering is... is there specific functionality that more expensive devices would have that could be worth getting (eg can they tell you what device/socket is drawing the energy or is that a very silly question?), or do they all do broadly the same thing and you're paying more for bigger/fancier displays, cleverer apps etc?

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 14, 2022 22:42:36 GMT eor said:

Hello energy folk. I have a question I'd appreciate your insight on if I may!

Since moving house, we have smart meters for the first time, and I want to get one of those gadgets that gives us detail, cost per day in £ being the bare minimum we'd want. Having had a look on amazon etc it seems there is quite the spread, with some devices for £30 and others for £100+. What I'm wondering is... is there specific functionality that more expensive devices would have that could be worth getting (eg can they tell you what device/socket is drawing the energy or is that a very silly question?), or do they all do broadly the same thing and you're paying more for bigger/fancier displays, cleverer apps etc?

Could you clarify if you refer to a smart meter provided by your supplier, including which tariff you are on, or (what I think you mean) something you might buy on Amazon that is intended to measure specific electrical devices.

leftieliberal has given a link with some info on how to be 'smart' and if you are mostly interested in reducing your overall demand* then I'd personally suggest save your money on buying anything from Amazon and instead reading up on how to be 'smart'. It is not a silly question but IMO you don't need a socket power meter to tell you such things as:

- only fill your kettle to the level you need
- ensure you use your washing machine, dish washer, etc only for 'full' loads (and using a lower temperature and/or using a shorter 'economy' cycle time)
- consider drying clothes outside (less practice in Winter, but in front of a wood burning stove if you're firing that up anyway is an option)
- various heating and insulation measures which would require a much more detailed and specific answer to your personal situation but most of which if fairly obvious and for which there is plenty of online info (and soon to be govt info). Most heating in UK is however not electric but I expect you wish to reduce all of energy demands.
- disconnecting 'vampire' appliances at the plug rather than leaving them in 'sleep' mode
- etc (above five was just 'off the top of head' and is not meant to be a complete list of the 'easy' changes that most people could easily do, if they are not doing so already)

* being smarter about WHEN you use different devices (ie Demand Shifting rather than demand reduction) would depend on your tariff (and how much you want to help the 'greater good' if your tariff isn't very smart)

[alec]

eor - the smart meter should be the responsibility of your supplier, and to be compliant with Ofgen standards, it should already give you a display etc - see www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-advice-households/getting-smart-meter

You shouldn't need to buy one, so the first thing I suggest would be to contact your supplier.

In terms of monitoring individual devices, a smart meter won't do that, but there are some good options. I use some simple Brennenstuhl plug in wattage and current meters. These plug into the socket, and you then plug in the power consuming item, and depending on which version you use you can see the instantaneous power consumption, voltage, and cumulative energy use for individual items/sockets. I use several of these because when I'm doing audits I might to run several at once, but for a domestic setting you would be able to use just one and move it around over time. They a bit awkward in that once unplugged, you lose the data, so you need to grub about on your knees reading the display, which isn't that great, but the professional grade monitors do start to get quite expensive (although I also have a calibrated power meter for doing accurate checks on voltage and current, but this costs around £1000). You should be able to get a Brennenstuhl plug in meter for around £20, many other brands are available.

Hope that helps.

Edit: would also add to check your fridge and freezers first. These can be surprisingly power hungry.

Edit: Developing the above, I've just now read leftieliberal's link and am somewhat surprised that it made no mention of refrigeration, one of the big potential contributors to household power demand. I'd also gently disagree with Mr Poppy on this - a low cost plug in power meter is absolutely ideal for trying to drive down consumption. One of the key advantages is that with most models, you get a check on voltage, which in many areas (esp remote rural) can be higher than the statutory maximum because of grid weakness, and higher voltage means more kWh so higher bills. Meters enable you to alert the DNO who have a legal responsibility to check and correct over or under voltages.

Plug in meters also alert you to failing equipment. Again, in the case of refrigeration units, progressive failures can lead to excessive bills. Fridges and freezers really are one of the silent killers on the electricity bill, and there are factors such as the positioning and how you use them that can be altered to save energy.

[alec]

Mr Poppy - yes, thanks, I did read it (I read most of your posts, some of which are rather good). I have given your request due consideration and responded accordingly.

[eor]

alec Mr Poppy - thank you both for your responses. To clarify a little - we moved into a house where there are smart meters for the gas and electric. However one meter is in the cupboard under the stairs and the other requires a small stepladder to access, so we're very much interested in one of those little worktop gizmos I've seen others have, about the size of indoor thermometers, that will show at a casual glance what the cost of today's electricity or gas usage is. Are you saying we should be able to get one of those from our supplier, albeit perhaps at a small cost?

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 16, 2022 0:50:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

Dec 15, 2022 20:10:41 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Another interesting article in The Conversation is this one:

theconversation.com/forget-net-zero-to-halt-global-heating-aim-for-net-negative-195484

Reposting your link on the Energy specific thread. I note they comment on BECCS and also "“learning by doing” and the concern of 'moral hazard'. However, there are already "abatement programme(s)" but there are certainly issues around 'carbon accounting' (as Drax highlight). Ideally we need global agreement but UK could and should be prepared to implement it's own approach (and/or copy+tweak EU and/or US approach) to ensure we stop exporting jobs only to reimport a higher global carbon footprint. alec 's 'fake gotcha' was followed by his 'shifting of the sands' in a later post that did then get close to what I have actually said all along. UK could and IMO should use Brexit freedoms to ensure we make, buy and sell more in Britain (the Lexiteer case) and end the 'old model Tory' of exporting jobs and reimporting a higher global carbon footprint.

Biden has gone the subsidy protectionism route in US and EU seem to be going down the CBAM route. UK could do a bit of both and I'm pretty sure Rachel gets it. UK was never 'advanced' on the CBAM approach (and perhaps alec will show the decency to state I never said that we were and he made that up). IIRC then Obama can claim credit for first suggesting 'Border Carbon Adjustments' but never implemented it. 

Anyway, 'net negative' and 'abatement programmes' are not new ideas but your link did cover some of the issues so I thought I'd repost it on the Issue Specific thread so that folks can refer back to it in the future.

[alec]

eor - I'm not remotely confused by what you want. You need what's called an In Home Display (IHD) which should come with the smart meters. You should only need one that is paired with both the gas and electric meters, and that should enable you to get what you want. These should be provided with the smart meter, but I suspect the previous owners have removed it, thinking it's their property.

I suggest you contact your current supplier and explain the issue and ask if they can supply a new IHD. I don't know if there is a charge for such a replacement, but that is your first port of call.

[leftieliberal]

Mr Poppy An interesting article in New Statesman: www.newstatesman.com/economy/2022/12/why-is-the-bank-of-england-raising-interest-rates-when-inflation-has-peaked Some quotes I picked out.

"The effects of this policy are laid bare in a report released yesterday by the energy company Drax. Researchers from Imperial College London concluded that as the UK went into autumn without any public information campaign on curbing energy use, gas demand was 4 per cent higher than in previous years. “In contrast, German gas demand was 17-33 per cent lower, and there is a similar story across France, Italy and Spain: all the largest economies in Europe have reduced the amount of gas they consume much further than Britain,” the report observed.

"Overall the demand for gas in the UK has reduced by just 0.3 per cent when weather conditions are accounted for. Dr Iain Staffell, lead author of the report, said it showed the UK up as “an outlier on the world stage, showing no signs of reducing its appetite for gas during a time of dramatically higher prices”.

and

"The loose monetary policy of recent years has left the Bank with a “credibility gap”, Lyons argues. “They need to show that they’re tough,” he says, in an uncertain environment. But he, too, agrees that caution is needed: “The speed, the scale and the sequencing of monetary policy tightening needs to be very sensitive to the current performance of the economy, and also to the lagged effects of previous tightening that’s already in the pipeline.”

[Danny]

Dec 14, 2022 0:13:28 GMT lens said:

Does make me wonder if the money to be made on batteries is now (whilst demand is far higher than supply), and by the time this should eventually get built we'll be heading to battery oversupply and falling prices?

Always noting that China is the world's largest supplier of essential minerals for batteries in the world by far, and Russia is currently occupying the largest deposits in Europe (in Ukraine). So are we going to be beholden to China or Russia?

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 16, 2022 0:50:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

Dec 15, 2022 20:10:41 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes, it’s amazing how quickly things can move. Re: global warming, it is looking a bit grim, but provided we don’t get some of the nastier runaway effects or whatever, maybe there’s a chance that having a lot more cheap energy might allow us to do a load of carbon extraction and begin to reverse some of the danage? Maybe. Incidentally Leftie, given your knowledge of photonics etc., wondered if you had any thoughts about the use of lasers in fusion. The right way to go? 

Rather like the original nuclear power stations being designed also to produce weapons-grade plutonium, the US laser fusion programme also has a military side (because they cannot do underground nuclear explosions to check whether the weapons still work they use a great deal of modelling instead and do some tests using the lasers as a check on their models). Stockpile stewardship is still a live issue and there is a real concern amongst  the military that weapons may fizzle rather than bang. When you consider that all the components of both the A-bomb and the H-bomb were designed long before anyone knew the long-term effects of radiation (particularly neutrons) on them, everyone thought at the time that one could just make a few test explosions a year and use it to decide when to rebuild each bomb. No one was thinking about what happens if you have 60-year old bombs and you cannot test them by exploding them. This is a roundabout way of saying that inertial confinement fusion probably isn't the best fusion option, but that the Americans can afford to put money into it for their own reasons.

theconversation.com/nuclear-fusion-how-scientists-can-turn-latest-breakthrough-into-a-new-clean-power-source-196446

Another interesting article in The Conversation is this one:

theconversation.com/forget-net-zero-to-halt-global-heating-aim-for-net-negative-195484

If we can do this (the Iceland example is where they are injecting CO2 into warm volcanic rocks and converting silicate rock into carbonate rock, but anything that takes CO2 out of the atmosphere works as well) we have the potential to avoid ice-sheet collapse and major sea-level rise. Ideally we should be thinking about getting the atmospheric CO2 level back to around 1960s levels over the next couple of centuries (350 ppm should mean we will not have to worry about future ice ages).

Thanks for your reply Leftie, and the links which were a useful read.

I am interested in the idea of inertial confinement rather than magnetic confinement, as then you don’t have to maintain a rather unstable plasma using those great big magnets. However instead you have the problem of getting the powerful lasers to fire several times a second, and some additional things mentioned in the article, like bringing down the cost of the targets, and that the delicate laser equipment might be especially vulnerable to the neutron bombardment.

I agree with you very much that carbon removal is a good idea. (In the long run managing an atmosphere is going to be important for offworld colonies and rotating habitats). I do think it would be cool to be able to use the carbon rather than just sequestering it though, for example using it to make graphene.

Did a search on the idea a little while back and turns out some researchers have managed to make graphene from CO2 so it is a possibility.

P.s. might copy this reply and your useful links into the energy thread if that’s ok to keep Trevs happy etc.

[leftieliberal]

Dec 16, 2022 14:47:09 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Dec 16, 2022 0:50:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

P.s. might copy this reply and your useful links into the energy thread if that’s ok to keep Trevs happy etc.

I always recommend linking to the post, like this ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/66341/thread (down arrow to the right of the gearwheel) rather than wholesale copying. If you link including the thread it shows the post in the thread it is in; if you link to the post alone it just shows the post.

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 16, 2022 10:48:45 GMT leftieliberal said:

Mr Poppy An interesting article in New Statesman: www.newstatesman.com/economy/2022/12/why-is-the-bank-of-england-raising-interest-rates-when-inflation-has-peaked Some quotes I picked out.

"The effects of this policy are laid bare in a report released yesterday by the energy company Drax. Researchers from Imperial College London concluded that as the UK went into autumn without any public information campaign on curbing energy use, gas demand was 4 per cent higher than in previous years. “In contrast, German gas demand was 17-33 per cent lower, and there is a similar story across France, Italy and Spain: all the largest economies in Europe have reduced the amount of gas they consume much further than Britain,” the report observed.

If you have a link for the Imperial College London study then can you post it. The numbers fail the 'sniff' test, so I wonder if they considered issues such as:

1/ UK has been 'demanding' more gas as we have the LNG infrastructure to then export it to Europe (either as gas or as electricity). IE did they adjust for trade? Domestic consumption comparison would be the better metric to use. 

2/ Germany are burning a lot more coal for electricity (some of which they are exporting to their neighbours) but mostly due to their own problems:
a/ "Coal-to-power generation output rose by 13.3% year-on-year to 42.9 terawatt hours (TWh) in the three months of July-September, during which overall German power output - at 118.1 TWh - lagged the same period in 2021 by 0.5 percent" 
b/ "Gas generation rose slightly, despite high prices, as wind and hydro power output were low, and domestic nuclear output also fell in July-Sept"
www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/energy-crisis-fuels-coal-comeback-germany-2022-12-16/

I've previously commented on the issue of Germany burning so much coal and how much higher German CO2 emissions are this year. Their current electricity generation is approx 3x more polluting than UK (use the link previously provided with map of Europe to check that).

NB I agree on the public information campaign. We should have started that months ago. 

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 16, 2022 15:02:22 GMT leftieliberal said:

Dec 16, 2022 14:47:09 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

P.s. might copy this reply and your useful links into the energy thread if that’s ok to keep Trevs happy etc.

I always recommend linking to the post, like this ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/66341/thread (down arrow to the right of the gearwheel) rather than wholesale copying. If you link including the thread it shows the post in the thread it is in; if you link to the post alone it just shows the post.

Yes that can be useful, however if people might want to quote from the post it can be easier if it’s in the same thread. (Also according to Carfrew’s seventh law of posting, if you just post a link, the people more prepared to click on a link tend to be those more apt to be critical. You might get more positive feedback when you actually quote bits).

[leftieliberal]

Dec 16, 2022 15:29:29 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Dec 16, 2022 10:48:45 GMT leftieliberal said:

Mr Poppy An interesting article in New Statesman: www.newstatesman.com/economy/2022/12/why-is-the-bank-of-england-raising-interest-rates-when-inflation-has-peaked Some quotes I picked out.

"The effects of this policy are laid bare in a report released yesterday by the energy company Drax. Researchers from Imperial College London concluded that as the UK went into autumn without any public information campaign on curbing energy use, gas demand was 4 per cent higher than in previous years. “In contrast, German gas demand was 17-33 per cent lower, and there is a similar story across France, Italy and Spain: all the largest economies in Europe have reduced the amount of gas they consume much further than Britain,” the report observed.

If you have a link for the Imperial College London study then can you post it. 

I think this is the Report: www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Drax_Electric_Insights_Report_2022_Q3.pdf

I found the link in their Press Release: www.drax.com/press_release/europe-is-cutting-gas-usage-faster-than-uk/

[leftieliberal]

Dec 16, 2022 15:39:29 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Dec 16, 2022 15:02:22 GMT leftieliberal said:

I always recommend linking to the post, like this ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/66341/thread (down arrow to the right of the gearwheel) rather than wholesale copying. If you link including the thread it shows the post in the thread it is in; if you link to the post alone it just shows the post.

Yes that can be useful, however if people might want to quote from the post it can be easier if it’s in the same thread. (Also according to Carfrew’s seventh law of posting, if you just post a link, the people more prepared to click on a link tend to be those more apt to be critical. You might get more positive feedback when you actually quote bits).

It wasn't the quoting bits so much as the wholesale copying, that I suggested avoiding.

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 16, 2022 16:00:09 GMT leftieliberal said:

Dec 16, 2022 15:29:29 GMT Mr Poppy said:

If you have a link for the Imperial College London study then can you post it. 

I think this is the Report: www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Drax_Electric_Insights_Report_2022_Q3.pdf

I found the link in their Press Release: www.drax.com/press_release/europe-is-cutting-gas-usage-faster-than-uk/

Thank you. I'll give it a detailed read later to see if they have made an 'apples v apples' comparison given their numbers are so different to others that I've seen. I'd note from the first few pages they mention the large reduction in "industry" demands*. UK has a lot less energy intensive industry than Germany, Italy, etc.

Looks like a very detailed report so thank you for posting it.

Added: EG see page10: "Britain’s smaller share of industrial consumers may play a role. Around 20% of Britain’s natural gas is consumed by industry, but this figure is 30–40% in Europe"

Lots of good info that link. A bit naughty of New Statesman to cherry pick one month (Sep) for their article to conclude that "gas demand was 4 per cent higher than in previous years" given it has been lower the four other months shown (see p9). However, UK could certainly do a lot more to reduce demand - pretty sure everyone would agree on that. The 'weather adjusted' data on p10 is quite concerning - especially given some polling from YG suggests folks are making behavioural adjustments:
yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2022/12/14/six-ten-are-reducing-their-heating-usage-despite-r

PS 'Trade' (ie UK moving from being a net importer to a net exporter) is covered on p14. There was no specific mention of 'other' countries burning a lot more coal but UK's 'capacity utilisation' of coal was just 14% on average with a maximum of 39%. We could choose to burn more coal in order to burn less gas - a decision that Germany made (see previous posts with the maps and data so folks can see that for themselves)

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 16, 2022 16:02:28 GMT leftieliberal said:

Dec 16, 2022 15:39:29 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes that can be useful, however if people might want to quote from the post it can be easier if it’s in the same thread. (Also according to Carfrew’s seventh law of posting, if you just post a link, the people more prepared to click on a link tend to be those more apt to be critical. You might get more positive feedback when you actually quote bits).

It wasn't the quoting bits so much as the wholesale copying, that I suggested avoiding.

Sure, but as I said, it’s easier for people to quote from if it’s in the same thread, plus it’s easier to find to refer back to if it’s in the dedicated thread, and for others to elaborate on it in the dedicated thread when they might not bother in the main thread.

[Mr Poppy]

leftieliberal I'll quote a section from the Drax press release. Anyone spot a bit of bias 

“Britain’s long-term energy security will be strengthened by ending our reliance on expensive imported fossil fuels such as gas and instead increasing investment in homegrown renewables, and innovative green technologies such as bioenergy with carbon capture and storage (BECCS) and pumped storage hydro.”

I think everyone would agree with the bit I highlighted in purple but Drax are clearly pushing their two 'products' (BECCS and pumped storage hydro) for continued bungs. I'll post wording that various other biased sources might use for the section I highlighted in green

- increasing investment in British nuclear
- increasing investment in N.Sea oil and gas
- building tidal lagoons
- increasing investment in wind farms (both onshore and offshore) and solar
- increasing investment in grid level batteries
- increasing investment in green hydrogen production and hydrogen storage
- increasing investment in interconnectors*

IMO we need ALL of the above (and I expect Miliband would agree with that).

* Not too much of that IMO and mostly just with Norway or in 'hydrogen ready' pipelines to EU countries that could be 2way but would mostly be for exports, starting later this decade and ramping up quickly from there provided we 'get on with it' on the rest of the list. 

[Mr Poppy]

Update from NG:

"Demand Flexibility results to date

The results from the first six one-hour Demand Flexibility events are in. Data from the first two events showed that engagement exceeded expectations and overdelivered by more than 35% against targets on both occasions. More than 1 million households and businesses have signed up to take part in Demand Flexibility events with 26 providers now on our approved providers list"

With detailed info on the decisions they made 11-12th Dec (eg warning up but then not using some coal plants (p8), the changes in interconnectors use (p9), etc) and loads of other info

www.nationalgrideso.com/document/273331/download

[eor]

alec - thank you, that is exactly what I meant!

Where I think I was confusing things myself was whether some of the devices I saw available online could maybe do a more sophisticated version of the same thing - but now it seems from what both you and Mr Poppy have said is that the next step up would have to be devices that monitor individual sockets by plugging through them in the same way as one would with say plugging through a circuit-breaker plug when using a lawnmower or hedge-trimmer? (we're not at all there yet, we just want to understand basic stuff like have a feel for how much our central heating settings add on a cold windy day, or how much cost difference there is between cooking our sunday roast in the gas oven or the fan oven in the unfamil1ar stove we acquired with the house)

I'll speak to our energy provider as you suggest, thanks again!

[Mr Poppy]

Dec 17, 2022 1:18:33 GMT eor said:

...both you and Mr Poppy have said is that the next step up would have to be devices that monitor individual sockets by plugging through them in the same way as one would with say plugging through a circuit-breaker plug when using a lawnmower or hedge-trimmer?

Just to be clear, I didn't say that. I said save your money and read up on how to be smart about saving energy, offering a few examples and mentioning links provided by others.

EG you buy a power meter that tells you that a half full load on high heat in a washing machine uses a lot of power or boiling a full kettle of water for a small pot of tea uses a lot of power - both of which you don't need a power meter to tell you and the power meter will not tell you the kWh price of the electricity you are using. IMO then instead read up on the easy savings that most people can make and 'know your tariff'.

If you want to make a big jump to a very smart home that uses AI and integrates to your energy supplier variable tariffs* and 'off-grid' components (eg wind, solar or battery) then I'm not going to discuss that on UKPR2a.

* You never stated your supplier or tariff which made specific advice 'confusing'. A phone app (which you can also access online from a laptop, etc) is IMO preferable to 'old tech' given you can access it remotely and you can build very smart energy usage around it. However, different people are at different levels and moving to a 'smarter' approach very much depends on who your supplier is and which tariff you are on.  

[alec]

Mr Poppy - The results from that Demand Flexibility trial are completely unsurprising, and act as a very good demonstration of just how much of a drag on progress National Grid PLC has been. There is absolutely nothing unexpected here, and the more advanced elements of the power industry have been calling for this for a decade, with abundant research and field trials showing exactly these kinds of results. The first such trial I am aware of reported in 2013, so that gives you an idea of just how poor NG PLC have been on this. In other ways too - the SEGL1 and SEGL2 links are only now going to planning, and are 5 -6 years away from completion, despite the fact that we knew fifteen years ago that we would have a north/south constriction in capacity. The performance of our grid development has been woeful.

I appreciate your focus on National Grid data and publications, but beneath this you have to understand that National Grid PLC is a private sector company operating to it's own interests, and it's output and publications are as much about protecting their own interests as developing a sensible national power system. They are painfully slow on the uptake, and much of their output reflects this. It's very important indeed to contextualize what NG PLC say, and to maintain a healthy scepticism regarding their output.

[alec]

Mr Poppy & leftieliberal - "EG you buy a power meter that tells you that a half full load on high heat in a washing machine uses a lot of power or boiling a full kettle of water for a small pot of tea uses a lot of power - both of which you don't need a power meter to tell you and the power meter will not tell you the kWh price of the electricity you are using. IMO then instead read up on the easy savings that most people can make and 'know your tariff'."

Again, I'd gently disagree with Trevor here. There are many circumstances, particularly fault conditions, when individual appliance monitoring is vital. Reading up about how much appliances 'should' consume is absolutely not the same as what they 'actually' consume. Washing machines, along with fridges, are good examples of appliances that can suddenly start consuming much more than they are designed to do because of developing faults. If you haven't defrosted your freezer, your fridge is poorly positioned (like most are) or you haven't kept the compressor fins clean, you'll use far more than you would expect.

The golden rule is never rely on appliance specifications and website averages - go and measure it for yourself. As in so many things, the real world is very different to the ideal world.

Edit: Forgot to mention also that most power meters allow you to set the tariff so they actually do tell you the precise cost of anything.