steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 14:30:51 GMT
domjgIt's somewhat difficult not to engage given that if I post on virtually or completely unrelated topics he still vectors in laser beam like on why the junior members of the coalition were to blame. I find it just as tedious as most but short of not posting at all ( no cheering in the back there) it's difficult to see how it's possible to avoid triggering a response. And I really don't want to filter my contributions based on whether it will set Mr Jones off. Because anything can.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 12, 2024 14:34:28 GMT
I have said this before and wil say it again...an ad-blocker extension/add-on on your browser is your friend....especially for those who go on newspaper sites regularly. IMO, Firefox is the best for this. partly as Google are making blockers less powerful with Manifest v3 (https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/chrome-pushes-forward-with-plans-to-limit-ad-blockers-in-the-future), but, you can get a decent blocker/content filter for most major browsers. You can bypass paywalls by dropping the URL into the archive page.
It seems to work for most major publications
The Wayback Machine archive.org/web/ also works and has the merit that if a web page changes you can see snapshots before and after the change.
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Post by shevii on Jan 12, 2024 14:38:55 GMT
Thanks-I know you will have put much thought into this which I respect. I think Afghanistan, Iraq , Libya ; yes and Syria too involved trying to change regimes. I agree with you that the tribal nature of these societies with the systemic & divisive religious element makes western interventions of that sort utterly useless and doomed to disastrous outcomes. This-so far as I can see is a response to attacks on our navy(s) and commercial shipping using the Canal. No 10 & US say further responses will depend on the Houthi's actions. I couldn't disagree more with you about "aiding" this Shia faction :- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movementWhat makes you think that our abandoning Israel will stop Iran's antagonism to it via their proxies ? But of course you are right about Israel's behaviour in Gaza. It is inexcusable. But they clearly believe that unless they remove Hamas from its Gaza tunnels they will never be safe. And they have decided that those ends justify any means. I watched an interview on Ian King's business prog. on Sky News. It was with a shipping brokerage about the economic and commercial effects of the Houthi attacks. He said that whilst some companies had abandoned the Red Sea, others had simply found ways of associating their line or just their cargo with China or Russia. Or simply putting banners on deck saying "not for Israel". This apparently gives them freedom from Houthi attacks. ie they appeared to take sides and made a choice. I am afraid that in a globalised world where global resources are everyones vital national interest, we have to take sides. We could choose the side you prefer in this instance , but I suggest that would be exactly what Iran & its , Chinese and Russian partners / friends want-in their search for greater global influence. I am just reading a book about the changing global balance of power and the post globalisation trends. * Havent got to the end yet ! * The Levelling by Michael O'Sullivan And a well thought out reply as well :-) Plenty of which I agree with and none of this is simple with plenty, if not all, Arab states being bad actors in some form or another and being egged on by the big players including Russia, China and America too (in certain respects at least). Just one point to make- I am not talking about "abandoning Israel". I am talking about making them behave within International Law and trying to get them to engage in a serious diplomatic solution such as has happened in Northern Ireland and South Africa. If they don't then they abandon themselves. www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 14:44:34 GMT
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Post by Old Southendian on Jan 12, 2024 14:56:49 GMT
Love the way he's set this out. What it really does highlight (among other things) is the difference in the age demographic between Labour and tory. 3% of Labour's 2019 voters have died, for the Conservatives the figure is 8% SNIP
Thanks for highlighting this interesting graphic. It's moved me to reply while otherwise scrolling through the regular sniping.
Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but one thing it seems to highlight is that Labour is really gaining in the 2019 DNV category. My take on that would be people who might usually vote Labour, but couldn't vote for Corbyn's 2019 version, but equally couldn't bring themselves to vote for anyone else. I think this is good news for Labour, but it's not something I've heard discussed much. The Red Wall Lab-Con switcher has been a prominent topic of discussion, but is another significant cohort the loyal silent Labour voters, who just didn't like Corbyn? Maybe the Red Wall falling was as much about reticence as switching.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 12, 2024 15:01:04 GMT
I'm not sure if you are explaining national self interest or agreeing with it? Hi shevii, the post was much more an explanation rather than a reflection of how I think/wish things should be (as is the case with many of my posts). At heart I am liberal internationalist, ideally our foreign policy should be based, reflect and seek to foster the principles of human rights etc, but its just not going to happen a the moment, and basing our approach purely along these lines is currently, and unfortunately, impractical and at worst possibly counter-productive. The inconsistency between our approaches to Ukraine and Gaza are blatantly clear to all, but given the circumstances makes logical sense from an over-all foreign policy position, as does the action taken against the Houthi's.
From 1946 onwards, the UK's position in the ME has been hindered by the dynamic between the domestic angle to US Israeli relations and its implications for UK-US relations, especially as the UK became increasingly dependent/subservient to the US. As long as the US refrains from putting serious pressure on Israel to cease expanding settlements and a genuine two-state solution the overall situation is unlikely to improve. We have zero influence over this. Conversely. we have no influence over Iran either, and any further increase in their influence and power in the region is definitely not in our interest.
Overall, I think the best option for us appears to be some form of containment towards the forces that are hostile to us - a line of action/approach that last last night's strikes is consistent with.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 15:02:18 GMT
The post office lies as often and with no filter as Spaffer. It wasn't just courts , their staff and politicians that were lied to.
"The Post Office threatened and lied to the BBC in 2015 ahead of a Panorama programme with a Horizon whistleblower which exposed the scandal, the public broadcaster said.
The BBC said experts who were interviewed for the programme were sent intimidating letters by Post Office lawyers who also sent letters to the broadcaster, threatening to sue Panorama.
According to the BBC, senior Post Office managers also told the broadcaster at the time that no staff or the company who developed Horizon, Fujitsu, could access post office operators accounts, despite being warned four years earlier this was possible.
The BBC says the claims did not stop the programme, titled Trouble at the Post Office, but it did delay the broadcast of the show.
The Post Office has been contacted for comment. It told the BBC it will not comment while the public inquiry continues."
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 12, 2024 15:26:32 GMT
I'm not sure if you are explaining national self interest or agreeing with it? Conversely. we have no influence over Iran either, and any further increase in their influence and power in the region is definitely not in our interest.
Overall, I think the best option for us appears to be some form of containment towards the forces that are hostile to us - a line of action/approach that last last night's strikes is consistent with. One wonders what might have happened if, in 1979, the French Government hadn't been so keen to let Ruhollah Khomeini go back to Iran. Although the movement to overthrow the Shah included nationalists and Marxists as well as Islamists, as soon as the latter seized power they promptly murdered tens of thousands of the former. They can also be blamed for the election of Ronald Reagan. Any remotely civilised country knows that you do not take diplomats hostage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 15:39:36 GMT
And a well thought out reply as well :-) Plenty of which I agree with and none of this is simple with plenty, if not all, Arab states being bad actors in some form or another and being egged on by the big players including Russia, China and America too (in certain respects at least). Just one point to make- I am not talking about "abandoning Israel". I am talking about making them behave within International Law and trying to get them to engage in a serious diplomatic solution such as has happened in Northern Ireland and South Africa. If they don't then they abandon themselves. www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfamThanks. I understand re Israel. I used to believe in the Two State solution. I can't see a future for it now. I dont know what the answer is. I agree they have gone too far in Gaza and they continue to encroach on Palestinian land. I cant help thinking though that no amount of concessions will stop the desire to have them wiped off the map. Not simple-indeed. !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 15:55:27 GMT
I understand re Israel. I used to believe in the Two State solution. I can't see a future for it now. I dont know what the answer is. I agree they have gone too far in Gaza and they continue to encroach on Palestinian land. I cant help thinking though that no amount of concessions will stop the desire to have them wiped off the map. Not simple-indeed. ! We will never know what the world would be like without, what I think of as bizarre beliefs in invisible, non-existent (but apparently conflicting!) deities and the effect this has on billions of our fellow citizens of our uniquely magical planet. But I can’t believe it would be any worse - and it is at least possible that it might be better.
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mercian
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Post by mercian on Jan 12, 2024 16:02:07 GMT
The weird thing is that the God of the Jews, Christians and Moslems is all supposed to be the same bloke.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 16:07:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:17:32 GMT
The weird thing is that the God of the Jews, Christians and Moslems is all supposed to be the same bloke. I recommend Tom Hollands "In the Shadow of the Sword" and "Dominion" . They will cure you of that idea. Its all about how you worship Him , and who speaks for Him. Whose in charge ! About which questions they have been slaughtering and butchering each another in the most horrendous ways imaginable -for 1500 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:20:40 GMT
We will never know what the world would be like without, what I think of as bizarre beliefs in invisible, non-existent (but apparently conflicting!) deities and the effect this has on billions of our fellow citizens of our uniquely magical planet. But I can’t believe it would be any worse - and it is at least possible that it might be better. "Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us, only sky"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:24:26 GMT
Two absolutely excellent excerpts from Marina Hyde’s article in the Guardian today”
“ According to Downing Street, the prime minister is now backing a knighthood for Alan Bates. Bates’s 20-year campaign for justice for post office operators has finally got the recognition it deserves thanks to ITV’s extraordinarily consciousness-raising drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office. But why not offer him a peerage? It seems odd to think he would somehow fall short of a standard apparently cleared easily by Michelle Mone.
The obvious answer would seem to be that Mr Bates is not rich or parasitic enough, has never moved in the “right” circles, nor has he given enough money to a political party, ideally the governing Conservatives. (Boris Johnson alone appointed enough peers to account for 11% of the entire current House of Lords.) Furthermore, Alan Bates has not taken a penny for his decades of tireless labour, somehow failing to realise that you are supposed to get very rich doing something, and then receive an honour to say well done. Either that or you should assist Liz Truss in detonating the country’s economic stability.”
And she follows later with this:
“ None of which is meant to imply that all peers are workshy or venal or self-aggrandising – very far from it. One of the other tireless campaigners for justice for the post office operators is the former Conservative MP James Arbuthnot, now Lord Arbuthnot, who this week gave an object lesson in self-deprecation. “In the end, I achieved nothing,” he reflected to the Times. “I’m sad to have to say that it has actually been significantly less effective than I wish it had been. As you probably deduced from the drama, however heroic I and other MPs appeared, I achieved absolutely nothing.” How markedly in contrast that stands to the crazed bandwagonning of some MPs and ministers this week, who have fallen over themselves to look retrospectively heroic now that the scandal has gone radioactive.”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:29:38 GMT
We will never know what the world would be like without, what I think of as bizarre beliefs in invisible, non-existent (but apparently conflicting!) deities and the effect this has on billions of our fellow citizens of our uniquely magical planet. But I can’t believe it would be any worse - and it is at least possible that it might be better. "Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us, only sky" Some of John’s most poignant lyrics. Though “In My Life”, written at a ridiculously young age, probably affect me slightly more as a simple commentary in our own lives. I say “ridiculously young” because the lyrics are like the musings of a much older person with a much greater experience of life.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 12, 2024 16:41:35 GMT
We Think
'As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:49:03 GMT
colin Not sure whether to be pleased of worried that we have taken to liking each others posts… Paul
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:50:43 GMT
We Think 'As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week. 🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)' I see that Ed’s “complicity” in the whole scandal has had a terrible effect on Jib Dem numbers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:51:01 GMT
Sorry ….. Lib Dem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 17:16:43 GMT
The weird thing is that the God of the Jews, Christians and Moslems is all supposed to be the same bloke. I think that, with Batty’s help, I can give the whole lot of them your address Pete. And none of them will approve of your calling him “a bloke”. (I believe the punishments vary but they all hurt like fuck - though the pain does eventually cease.)
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 12, 2024 17:23:57 GMT
I hv doubts about tactical voting. Once you relegate Labour to 3rd place, they can never recover, tho some did in '97. But what do you suggest my Labour-Remainer friends in N. Devon do? See stats which will prob come out like alphabet soup Whoa a minute, that's far too sweeping a statement. There are masses of seats where Labour were in third place in 1983 but won in 1997 - my own fair town of Braintree being just one example. In many cases Labour climbed back into second place in 1987 or 1992 before winning in 1997, but in a few cases they won directly from third place - Falmouth and Camborne for example.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 12, 2024 17:26:40 GMT
Lulu the lemon.
No raw nerve touched at all, just mild irritation! UKPR would be a much poorer place without periodic irritation outbreaks!!
I pledged my troth in my first reply to you, so no more on the subject from me. Our respective large coteries of admirers on here will no doubt be be glad to hear that and be keen too that we return quickly to our best form.
I plough my own furrow on here, as you know, so, no more of this introspection and preciousness.
I will therefore shortly resume my merciless lampoonery of others, pitiless sarcasm and Aston Villa updates, unencumbered by self-doubt.
And maybe, very occasionally, provide the odd bit of political insight and pearls of polling wisdom!
🤣😛
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Post by lefthanging on Jan 12, 2024 17:26:56 GMT
We will never know what the world would be like without, what I think of as bizarre beliefs in invisible, non-existent (but apparently conflicting!) deities and the effect this has on billions of our fellow citizens of our uniquely magical planet. But I can’t believe it would be any worse - and it is at least possible that it might be better. "Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us, only sky" Exactly what old John intended by those lyrics is hard to pin down - he did describe himself a "most religious fellow" and reflected "imagining no religion – not imagining no God - although you’re entitled to do that, too, you know? Imagine no denominations. Imagining that we revere Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Krishna, Melanippe, equally". So less about no religion and more about no religious boundaries. In a way it could be seen as returning to the classical idea of religion as a virtue (namely the orientation towards the ultimate / the Good / the divine) that all people (believers or not) practise - rather than religion in the modern sense of "a set of propositional beliefs about God" or "a particular religious tradition". Sorry not sure if I can justify the polling relevance of that one . That said, there's some good evidence that people with high levels of religiosity are more left wing - although not sure if the correlation holds for John Lennon fans as well!
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graham
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Post by graham on Jan 12, 2024 17:34:18 GMT
I hv doubts about tactical voting. Once you relegate Labour to 3rd place, they can never recover, tho some did in '97. But what do you suggest my Labour-Remainer friends in N. Devon do? See stats which will prob come out like alphabet soup Whoa a minute, that's far too sweeping a statement. There are masses of seats where Labour were in third place in 1983 but won in 1997 - my own fair town of Braintree being just one example. In many cases Labour climbed back into second place in 1987 or 1992 before winning in 1997, but in a few cases they won directly from third place - Falmouth and Camborne for example. And Portsmouth South as recently as 2017!
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 12, 2024 17:44:59 GMT
Whoa a minute, that's far too sweeping a statement. There are masses of seats where Labour were in third place in 1983 but won in 1997 - my own fair town of Braintree being just one example. In many cases Labour climbed back into second place in 1987 or 1992 before winning in 1997, but in a few cases they won directly from third place - Falmouth and Camborne for example. And Portsmouth South as recently as 2017! Another is Mid-Bedfordshire, Labour came third in 2010 and won it in 2023
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 18:27:38 GMT
Paul The jib dems are what Mr Jones talks about, they live rent free in his head.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 12, 2024 18:28:15 GMT
The Post Office has been contacted for comment. It told the BBC it will not comment while the public inquiry continues." The post office belongs to the government. No company can refuse to obey its shareholders. if the government really wanted thus settled quickly, it would order the PO to comletely cooperate, admit the failings of Horizon, apologise to those affected and start compensation unilatrally. That this isnt happenig is simply because the government is refusing to to help those affected and still trying to prevent them getting compensation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 18:39:25 GMT
Paul The jib dems are what Mr Jones talks about, they live rent free in his head. Well yes…I was just making a small joke.
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 12, 2024 18:40:56 GMT
I hv doubts about tactical voting. Once you relegate Labour to 3rd place, they can never recover, tho some did in '97. But what do you suggest my Labour-Remainer friends in N. Devon do? See stats which will prob come out like alphabet soup Whoa a minute, that's far too sweeping a statement. There are masses of seats where Labour were in third place in 1983 but won in 1997 - my own fair town of Braintree being just one example. In many cases Labour climbed back into second place in 1987 or 1992 before winning in 1997, but in a few cases they won directly from third place - Falmouth and Camborne for example. Thanks. I did say some seats achieved this in '97. Some being an adjective usually indicating an unspecified quantity. The tragic thing about Braintree, well one of the many tragic things, is that in so many elections in which the Tories won since 1974, at least until recently, the Lib-Dem (or SDP) & Labour vote rivalled each other. Not much tactical voting there. It has been rare however when the combined vote was as great as the Tory one. So tactical voting would not help? I did actually recomend tactical voting though it must have some depressing effects on the party vote that's squeezed. It arises from the FPTP system? The two main parties believe in a electoral system in which they take turns to rule under FPTP. [Not quite like Spain in the early 20th century when the parties ensured this happened by filling in the results before the vote was taken, but with the same tendency to rotating one-party rule). The only problem is that the Tories get 2x as many turns. So when Labour get power, they think "ah well it's our turn, maybe we can become the naturtal party of power," hence banish any thoughts of PR. Occasionally the sysytem of FPTP, which they support, bites their ass as in recent Westminster elections in Scotland. The SNP of course soon become used to the idea that FPTP is a jolly good thing. All parties believe this when they win. We supporters of main partties are so innured to the taking-turns system that we are indifferent to the Lib-Dems or indeed UKIP in 2015 being vastly under-represented. Of course when a new arena of voting arises, devolution/EU Parliament, it is based, or becomes based, on some element of PR. The grossness of this system became v blatant in the first EU elections when the Liberals got millions of votes & zero seats. One can almsot understand why the Lib-Dems agreed unwisely to the Coalition in 2010 as FPTP had deprived them of any taste of peacetime power since 1922 (leaving aside the Lib-Lab pact). The Brown-Blair government of 1997-2005 was the only one that had a chance to do something. But it was their turn & old labour members would not hv touched it. The myth is that FPTP creates stable one-party governments. Recent events suggest this is not true.
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