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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 13:33:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 13:37:39 GMT
The TV play informed millions of us about details we didn't know. About the behaviour of the PO. It was a collective reminder. Produced critical headlines and tv news coverage. The things politicians hate . Thumbs up to ITV
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 9, 2024 13:40:30 GMT
One of the things that I suspect newbies to this site would find pretty off-putting, should they chance upon us, is the superiority and pretty much down-right contempt that some seem to show all too often towards a huge percentage of the electorate. Imho, your oft repeated "national idiots' day" is a case in point Steve. Empty vessels Dave . And when voters move even further out of earshot , they become emptier of anything but their contempt and bile. Empty vessels, utterly contemptuous of the people of this country is a perfect description of this tory government. What does that say about their supporters and apologists?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 9, 2024 13:41:47 GMT
Can't wait for the one about the PPE scandal...who will play Johnson and Mone...although I suspect they will need to pry Mone's Peerage from her greedy fingers
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 9, 2024 13:44:16 GMT
Sahra Wagenknecht! Don't make me laugh.. She's just looking for something to occupy her having been ejected from die Linke. She'll get nowhere.
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Post by jib on Jan 9, 2024 13:46:34 GMT
The last time the Lib Dems got involved with these vans we had the "go home" slogan. At least Ed Davey has a handy number to ring this time. Never mind eh.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 13:48:34 GMT
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Post by graham on Jan 9, 2024 13:49:23 GMT
Thanks for that analysis (you are one of the reasons I keep coming back here!) It is hard to grasp the nuances of polling in areas whose characteristics are somewhat dissimilar to one's own.
It does strike me that, if Labour gain power through the votes of wealthier (if perhaps more socially liberal) folk in the South of England, then to maintain power it would be wise for them to govern in their interests. I don't think it's sensible for people to continue to characterise any political party as having an immutable set of values, hence the decreasing value of looking back at polling or election results from the 1970s or 80s. I do think both major GB wide parties are now misnamed. Labour doesn't primarily represent the working class - perhaps the (Mildly) Progressive Party would be about right. And there is nothing very conservative about the current iteration of the party carrying that name (and the English branch doesn't seem all that bothered about the Union, so Unionist doesn't work either.) The Grievance Party sums it up best of late. I still find it difficult to fathom how former committed Labour voters in areas which strongly voted Brexit in 2016 still see the present-day Tory party as representing their interests. The Brexit issue is now very much in the background - and likely to remain there for years to come. The reasons that they voted Tory are no longer relevant. Corbyn is now long gone - as is Johnson now. What is it about the Tory record of recent years that such people find so appealing?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 9, 2024 13:52:13 GMT
" So clearly at the very least you are not accepting that a sizeable chunk of voters had their own reasons for voting out and that these reasons would have been good as well as bad, in much the same way as remainers. Just because they didn't vote the way you did, does not make them idiots. " I don't accept that any had good reasons being mistaken doesn't however necessarily mean they were idiots. Those whose reason for voting leave related to reducing the number of non European union citizens coming to the UK and reducing non European union immigration which was core to the brexitanians campaign particularly promulgated by Farage were clearly not exercising their faculties as it was blindingly obvious that the two issues didn't relate to each other. They were of course lied to but the gullibility was entirely their own. jibI'm not trying to absolve Davey of anything just pointing out that as usual your sources are bias and inaccurate and that you as usual fail to accept when your absence of fact checking and massive uncontrollable bias means your postings are factually incorrect. Frankly I didn't vote for either party in the coalition in 2010 or 2015 and didn't vote for Ed Davey as liberal democrat party leader, neither did I support the privatisation of the post office. But carry on making shit up about other contributors you clearly enjoy it. Incidentally I don't think the vast majority of the posters here are stupid.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Jan 9, 2024 13:53:16 GMT
Acording to BBC News, Paula Vennels apologises and says she will hand back her CBE immediately. Shame. Given the nature of the British (and other) Empire(s), membership of its Order should include everyone whose personal aggrandisement and wealth has been achieved through extortion from others.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 9, 2024 13:55:22 GMT
steve "I don't think the vast majority of the posters here are stupid" I see you left yourself some wriggle room 😀
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 9, 2024 13:57:07 GMT
jibAnd as if by magic another lie from you. The liberal democrats opposed the go home van campaign at the time. "Tim Farron said in 2013: "It is right that this pilot scheme is scrapped and that these vans will not been seen on our streets again. The vans represented the worst kind of divisive politics and it seems only one immigrant went home because of them. This is a failed project and the Home Office should hold their hands up and admit it was wrong both practically and morally. "It is important that our borders are protected and secure but this policy – driving a van around some of the most diverse communities in London – is not the way to deliver that." Liberal Democrats said that they opposed the vans as a matter of principle. But Conservative sources said the decision had been taken by May after the evaluation showed the vans had not been effective in persuading illegal immigrants to leave the country. The business secretary, Vince Cable, had described the vans as stupid. Julian Huppert, a Liberal Democrat home affairs committee member, said the vans had demonised people who were in the country legitimately. " Just a thought before you post try to make at least a minimal effort to establish it isn't total garbage. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/22/go-home-vans-scrapped-failure
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 9, 2024 13:57:56 GMT
I do think both major GB wide parties are now misnamed. Labour doesn't primarily represent the working class - perhaps the (Mildly) Progressive Party would be about right. And there is nothing very conservative about the current iteration of the party carrying that name (and the English branch doesn't seem all that bothered about the Union, so Unionist doesn't work either.) The Grievance Party sums it up best of late. I still find it difficult to fathom how former committed Labour voters in areas which strongly voted Brexit in 2016 still see the present-day Tory party as representing their interests. The Brexit issue is now very much in the background - and likely to remain there for years to come. The reasons that they voted Tory are no longer relevant. Corbyn is now long gone - as is Johnson now. What is it about the Tory record of recent years that such people find so appealing? Ongoing cultural grievance and nihilism is the only thing I can think of. Voting tory in these areas is still seen perhaps as a kind of (utterly self defeating) revolutionary act. As I mentioned even they can't still imagine it will bring them any material benefit so perhaps they just don't believe anyone/anything can anymore. Pretty depressing idea.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 9, 2024 14:01:37 GMT
Can't wait for the one about the PPE scandal...who will play Johnson and Mone...although I suspect they will need to pry Mone's Peerage from her greedy fingers Not only is it the right thing to do from both a moral and taxpayer money recovery point of view, I think Labour's proposal, should they win the next election, to appoint a Covid Corruption Commissioner is clever politics too. The Commissioner's work and what he/she and their team discover, will serve as a constant reminder of Tory incompetence and corruption. Month in, month out over many years, this will drip into the public discourse. It may well make Liam Byrne's note look like a thing of trivia. There's no weak joke here. No matter how difficult things may get for Starmer's government, here will be a constant reminder of how right the voters were to get rid of the last lot. A never ending toothache for a Tory opposition laid out on the canvas and hoping to claw back some credibility and affection from the electorate. It may be a passport to the political wilderness for quite some time, and deservedly so too. www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/covid-corruption-commissioner-recoup-lost-billions-labour
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:14:11 GMT
My dear friend must really think we're stupid. Hang on.......he actually does. Stupid me! In your case I think that’s a given Jibby.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:18:09 GMT
The last time the Lib Dems got involved with these vans we had the "go home" slogan. At least Ed Davey has a handy number to ring this time. Never mind eh. Nice advert. Thanks for sharing it. I’ve reposted it so hope that helps as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:24:52 GMT
On to more serious matters than Lib Dem obsessions…. From the US Guardian: “ Nikki Haley’s support has peaked in New Hampshire, or perhaps not. Ahead of the state’s 23 January Republican primary, a Boston Globe/Suffolk University/USA Today poll reports she has 26% support compared with Trump’s 46%. But a CNN poll conducted by the University of New Hampshire shows a much closer race, with Trump at 39%, and Haley at 32%.” Although I follow US politics I’m by no means that knowledgable but….. if Trump’s OP support is less than 50% does that not justify what I have said for a while now, which is that once his opponents are reduced to the leading one then Trump is very vulnerable? Like Batty I just don’t see Trump being the candidate in the end given all the baggage he carries. Surely even in America that will count against him with sufficient Republican* Party members. (*Spellcheck offered ‘Replicant’ which seemed apposite. )
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Post by pete on Jan 9, 2024 14:32:49 GMT
Labour lead at 24pts Westminster voting intention: LAB: 46% (+3) CON: 22% (-2) LDEM: 10% (-) REF: 9% (-2) GRN: 7% (-1) via @yougov , 02 - 03 Janhttps://x.com/BritainElects/status/1744666246182813837?s=20 Just for fun, I gave the Tories 5 from Reform and 7 from Labour (leaving Greens and Libs as they are) and Labour are 9 short of an overall majority.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:37:42 GMT
pete That’s not my idea of fun. Can you do it the other way around instead please?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:38:09 GMT
Looking forward to the correctly amended figures.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 9, 2024 14:59:17 GMT
Labour lead at 24pts Westminster voting intention: LAB: 46% (+3) CON: 22% (-2) LDEM: 10% (-) REF: 9% (-2) GRN: 7% (-1) via @yougov , 02 - 03 Janhttps://x.com/BritainElects/status/1744666246182813837?s=20 Not sure where you get the -2 for the Tories from and +3 for Labour. According to Wikipedia the last YouGov poll was Con 22%, Lab 44% so =/+2
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 9, 2024 15:02:56 GMT
Acording to BBC News, Paula Vennels apologises and says she will hand back her CBE immediately. The petition is only going up at the rate of 100,000 a day. Can you just hand back an honour? I guess its less embarassing than waiting for the letter. Mind you, its a bit unfair her losing her gong when all she was doing was what her masters wanted.... Maybe she will get a peerage in ten years time after the fuss dies down?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 15:16:57 GMT
Extraordinary court case in Washington right now, where Trump’s lawyers should be ashamed and embarrassed by suggesting that Presidents are immune from the law.
The lawyers hearing the case seem most unimpressed and the next stop is likely to be the Supreme Court. Even they should surely throw it out?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 9, 2024 15:17:58 GMT
"The privatisation of Royal Mail has taken place in three parts – the majority of the company was disposed of in 2013, with 10% of shares allocated to an employee free offer and 60% sold to individuals and financial institutions. The first sale of Royal Mail started in October 2013, with shares priced at £3.30 each – total proceeds of the first sale were £1,980 million. When markets opened following the sale, Royal Mail shares were valued at £4.50. Since then the share price has mostly ranged between about £4 and £6." No, privatisation started with legislation to separate the post office as an arm of government into a separate company. Back in 1994 Heseltine started exploring means of privatisation, its other half the telephone business having already been sold off. In 2000 labour transformed it from a statutory corporation into a public limited company owned by the secretary of state for trade and industry. Note, Horizon false prosecutions were well under way by then. The act also broke the post office monopoly on letters, allowing a new postal regulator to issue licences to competitors to deliver mail. Unable because of public opinion to completely privatise it, labour set up private companies which would take its profitable business. The post office has been shrinking ever since and withdrawing service after service with rising delivery costs. And hang on - surely private companies are answerable to their shareholders who would be furious if a company they wholly owned did not do as asked. Its absurd to say the secretary of state did not have full power to dictate to the post office up to the time it was actually sold in 2013. About the same then as the cost of buying horizon, plus a billion or so in compensation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Mail
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 9, 2024 15:25:56 GMT
The TV play informed millions of us about details we didn't know. About the behaviour of the PO. It was a collective reminder. The way BBC sticks to its legal remit of impartiality is to be impartial overall. So if you have a government lean on the main news bulletin watched by millions, you balance it by a program at strange hours on R4. Where they have been covering the post office false convictions for years. They have a reporter who has been following it year by year, and adds an extra program every now and then as new things happen. The whole is available online i think. I dont remember now how long this has been going one, but it surely must have been evident even under labour that these false convictions were happening. And yet the establishment of every stripe has ignored them. Con probably do regard this as a good news story, because of the potential to blame libs and lab too.
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Post by pete on Jan 9, 2024 15:26:59 GMT
pete That’s not my idea of fun. Can you do it the other way around instead please? Shows how much work Tories need to do. They'll need to up their lies and attacks on Starmer, working so well for them.
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Post by pete on Jan 9, 2024 15:30:00 GMT
Labour lead at 24pts Westminster voting intention: LAB: 46% (+3) CON: 22% (-2) LDEM: 10% (-) REF: 9% (-2) GRN: 7% (-1) via @yougov , 02 - 03 Janhttps://x.com/BritainElects/status/1744666246182813837?s=20 Not sure where you get the -2 for the Tories from and +3 for Labour. According to Wikipedia the last YouGov poll was Con 22%, Lab 44% so =/+2 yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48291-voting-intention-con-22-lab-46-2-3-jan-2024
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 9, 2024 15:32:26 GMT
I still find it difficult to fathom how former committed Labour voters in areas which strongly voted Brexit in 2016 still see the present-day Tory party as representing their interests. The Brexit issue is now very much in the background - and likely to remain there for years to come. The reasons that they voted Tory are no longer relevant. Corbyn is now long gone - as is Johnson now. What is it about the Tory record of recent years that such people find so appealing? These red wall seats are supposed to be post industrial, which once had working men labouring in factories and voting labour. There are no factories. Any still alive are likely now pensioners interested in preserving their state pension and passing on their ex council house to their family, or its value anyway. They probably dont realise just how much more valuable that would be in London, but if they do that is going to be another reason for resentment. What did Blair and Brown do for them? Frankly nothing much?
Tis is dreams of glory land, thus open to Leavers claiming they could restore that glory. Never a chance that would happen, but if they see that now, what else has changed which might lead them to think labour will help them if it gets power again? And as to Corbyn, wouldnt he at least have held out a hope to them of traditional labour support? But the new labour trashed him!
This is surely the equivalent of Trump heartland in the US.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 15:36:13 GMT
The TV play informed millions of us about details we didn't know. About the behaviour of the PO. It was a collective reminder. Con probably do regard this as a good news story, because of the potential to blame libs and lab too. Actually-if you watched the debate in HoC yesterday after the Ministerial Statement as I did , it was refreshing. Complete cross party agreement on getting this sorted pronto. Compliments for the Minister's efforts to date. He thanked everyone else . And they all praised Sir Wyn Williams' Inquiry. Good to see.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 9, 2024 15:37:16 GMT
It possibly indicates that they have almost no hope in the future and resentment is the key motivator. There seems a total absence of hope now from right wing narratives generally, especially here and in the US. It's all about fear and distrust/resentment of the 'other', foreign or domestic (educated liberals).I have an interesting story. This morning on the bus, I was talking to an old lady (who I had never met before and who had started the conversation). She lives in Wembley, is Colombian (German father and Colombian mother) and grew up in South Africa. When she was orphaned she came to Britain and has lived here ever since. Now with her background I might have expected her to have been a Remainer, but no she voted for Brexit because she disliked the EU. What she really appreciated was the UK before it joined the EU when it provided a welcome for her rather than the UK in the EU which allowed in other Europeans but discriminated against people like her coming from outside Europe. We need to remember that people voted for Brexit for a whole range of reasons, some of which were not easily explainable.
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