Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 8:39:16 GMT
"So we're deliberately penalising poor old folks like me who can't walk very far and haven't cycled for 50 years. Hmm, I think I might vote for someone who doesn't want to do that." On the odd occasion they are walking don't you think they would benefit from vehicles travelling slower, or don't you old fogies ever cross the road? Its not obvious to me that a busy road at 20mph is any easier to cross than one at 30. If the total number of vehicles goes up 50% because the journey takes 50% longer at 20 than 30, then its going to be harder to find a gap in traffic. Can some of these roads survive 50% extra traffic from this scheme?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 8:42:41 GMT
95%+ of vehicles give way to pedestrians using these crossings, So the other 5% go splat?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 8:48:48 GMT
I think there is an irony in the Sunak government's recent broadside against localism and a communitarian type of self-government. It appears that they are pledging to do away with all that if it results in measures that they feel are woke and quasi-socialist. Specific road traffic regulations, community inspired measures on the environment etc. As Freedland observed in his recent article, this is another nail in the coffin of traditional conservatism that used to claim to treasure and champion such things. Surely all that went out the window under Thatcher, when government changed rules and funding to compel local authorities to obey the centre. On the one hand this has meant curtailing councils, on the other the EU. Con have over this period been dedicated to concentration of all power at westminster, and indeed in extending the ability of ministers to rule by decree without parliament. Its all very traditionally feudal. Or maybe not even that because at least in theory a feudal lord was under an obligation to care for the wellbeing of his serfs.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 8:56:35 GMT
As per a reply I posted yesterday then it's not all about what school one attends. 'Good parenting' and creating opportunities for your children to be "the best that they can be" comes in many forms. I seem to remember a study put the contribution of the school to future success as low as 10%? The number was surprisingly low. There are at least two sorts of private school. There are the very posh ones which seems to be in a different century. And then there are the more workmanlike ones which are really not about class but about delivering better education than the local state school can. Parents do all sorts of things to be able to afford these, such as working two jobs, remortgaging the home, spending the inheritence from granny. Or indeed, local authorities seem to fund quite a few places for kids unable to survive in their local state schools, which cannot cope with unusual kids.
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Post by EmCat on Sept 30, 2023 8:59:33 GMT
Every year on UK roads around 15,000 children are involved in road accidents resulting in significant injury in around 2000 of these accidents the injuries are life changing or fatal. What kind of dickhead would think I can gain votes our of being the " motorists friend" by increasing the likelihood of accidents and the severity of the outcome. Probably the kind who only ever thinks of "Mr Wheeler", and forgets that, as soon as he exits the car, he is "Mr Walker" www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwPSIb3kt_4And the kind who thinks "but all children are driven to school" (and clearly never ave to cross roads when they are dropped off there)
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Sept 30, 2023 9:00:39 GMT
Dan is spot on here The other thing is that when Sunak says things like low traffic neighbourhoods and 20 mph speed limits are forced in people, no they're not. They will be implemented by local councils, including tory ones, who were voted for by the local community. If they don't want them they can either not vote for them or kick them out at the next election, it's called democracy
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 30, 2023 9:06:28 GMT
"So we're deliberately penalising poor old folks like me who can't walk very far and haven't cycled for 50 years. Hmm, I think I might vote for someone who doesn't want to do that." On the odd occasion they are walking don't you think they would benefit from vehicles travelling slower, or don't you old fogies ever cross the road? Its not obvious to me that a busy road at 20mph is any easier to cross than one at 30. If the total number of vehicles goes up 50% because the journey takes 50% longer at 20 than 30, then its going to be harder to find a gap in traffic. Can some of these roads survive 50% extra traffic from this scheme? It's entirely about reducing deaths and injuries by avoiding collisions between vehicles and pedestrians and making them less severe when they do occur. Nothing else really matters as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by wb61 on Sept 30, 2023 9:06:45 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 9:08:39 GMT
Perhaps not the best wording for the questions but mention 'Private School' and some folks might think Eton I suppose. Quite a partisan split but I note that whilst only 34% of people have a 'favourable' opinion of private schools then 41% would still send their kids to one if they could - with the difference being most obvious in a minority of LAB voters (some of whom are perhaps the parents of LAB MPs They asked an interestingly worded qustion, 'if you had enough money to comfortably do so, would you send your children to private schools." I'm interested in the group of parents who are sending their kids to private schools who CANNOT comfortably afford it, but consider that the state system has totally failed their children and they have no choice.
The answer nationally is 41% yes and 44% no, so evenly divided. Lib dems evenly divided, con favour private, lab disfavour private. I am left wondering whether this policy is a vote loser amongst traditional conservative voters, doesnt seem likely to attract any ex con veering lib.
The other funny thing I notice is its 49% leavers and 35% remainers who would use private schools. What does that tell us? leavers are people who had below average educational attainment but favour private education for their kids?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Sept 30, 2023 9:08:39 GMT
I would recommend people read this thread by Anthony Wells, especially his breakdown on affordability Some points Only 6.2% of UK children attend private school The average school fee is £15,000 PA Average take home pay in the UK is under £26,000 News flash, people on that income or less have very little fat to cut in their expenditure to be able to afford even £5,000 per year Private schools are very much the preserve of the relatively wealthy
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Post by jib on Sept 30, 2023 9:10:23 GMT
Dan is spot on here The other thing is that when Sunak says things like low traffic neighbourhoods and 20 mph speed limits are forced in people, no they're not. They will be implemented by local councils, including tory ones, who were voted for by the local community. If they don't want them they can either not vote for them or kick them out at the next election, it's called democracy Let's hope that democracy kicks out the Tories in 2024 I say! The problem with Toryism is that it is a shape shifting machiavellian movement that spends as much time fighting with its inner self as with its political rivals. One would have thought that Brexit would have addressed this, but they've just reformed into anti-blob Trussites and and another pro-technocratic mass that currently see Sunak as their best prospect. Complete chaos but they must relate to the "common people" - so why not put 20mph into the sausage machine.
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 30, 2023 9:12:03 GMT
"Its not obvious to me that a busy road at 20mph is any easier to cross than one at 30"
Well it should be , at a third slower speeds both drivers and pedestrians have a third more time to react to situations.Particularly significant to older drivers and pedestrians whose reaction times are slower.
This is so blindingly obvious that I can only conclude you posted to be intentionally contrarian.
Situational awareness is a key factor in most circumstances and using the road is no different the more time you have to think and react the better.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 9:12:24 GMT
This is no time for experts, Danny, as you very well know. They mucked up our response to the COVID pandemic, remember On the contrary, Sweden was one of the few countries were by accident of the constitution, medical experts were placed in charge of managing the epidemic, and they chose not to use lockdowns. Whereas elsewhere politicians made the decisions.
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 30, 2023 9:16:37 GMT
"So the other 5% go splat?"
No you turnip because there's no legal obligation to stop to allow people to cross pedestrians don't do so until it's obvious the vehicle is giving way.
If you've ever used a urban road in Spain with open eyes it's simple.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 30, 2023 9:18:07 GMT
Its not obvious to me that a busy road at 20mph is any easier to cross than one at 30. If the total number of vehicles goes up 50% because the journey takes 50% longer at 20 than 30, then its going to be harder to find a gap in traffic. Can some of these roads survive 50% extra traffic from this scheme? It's entirely about reducing deaths and injuries by avoiding collisions between vehicles and pedestrians and making them less severe when they do occur. Nothing else really matters as far as I'm concerned. Then you support a ban on all road vehicles? You dont care the economy would come to a halt because there was no transport? Its not helpful to make sweeping emotional statements such as you just did, which are however absurd if taken literally. If governments take that approach it leads to crazy and very harmful outcomes, like the world recession caused by covid lockdowns. Whereas in ww1 in a similar situation governments generally did their best to downplay flu and got on with running the war. Suppose Britain had said everyone must stop work because of the flu, all the soldiers isolate? Sure, thats an extreme example but it really isnt different in kind just in scale of the disaster which would have resulted.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 30, 2023 9:19:23 GMT
As per a reply I posted yesterday then it's not all about what school one attends. 'Good parenting' and creating opportunities for your children to be "the best that they can be" comes in many forms. I seem to remember a study put the contribution of the school to future success as low as 10%? The number was surprisingly low. There are at least two sorts of private school. There are the very posh ones which seems to be in a different century. And then there are the more workmanlike ones which are really not about class but about delivering better education than the local state school can. Parents do all sorts of things to be able to afford these, such as working two jobs, remortgaging the home, spending the inheritence from granny. Or indeed, local authorities seem to fund quite a few places for kids unable to survive in their local state schools, which cannot cope with unusual kids. I agree that some people kill themselves to send their kids to private schools. My sister in law's family are a case in point. Son was having a hard time at his state school, so they sent him to a private school. Daughter was doing just fine at her state school but now they felt to be fair they had to send her private as well. Judging by the endless queue of Range Rovers seen outside local private schools however they're very much in the minority. Maybe there could be means testing for paying VAT.
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 30, 2023 9:22:51 GMT
The other benefit with a 20 mph limit is the re-emergence of cycling to school in the UK just 2% of kids cycle to school in Holland it's 70%.
But you don't have to be cycling fanatics like the Dutch. In Spain in 2000 the rate of cycling to school was even lower than the uk at 1% there was a concerted cross party effort to improve road safety and encourage cycling and now around 15% cycle with another 35% walking.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Sept 30, 2023 9:24:49 GMT
Be afraid, be very afraid
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 30, 2023 9:34:27 GMT
Elon Musk has apparently been forwarding tweets from Germany's far right AfD. I really don't understand this man (not sure there is as much to understand as some think). The primary customer base for his cars both in Europe and the US is educated liberals. Apparently it's not uncommon for pick up drivers in the US to deliberately menace Teslas on the assumption they're driven by liberals. He seems to be doing all he can to alienate this demographic everywhere but seeing what he's done to twitter I'm not surprised.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Sept 30, 2023 9:35:14 GMT
someone like myself having a successful career in Investment Banking. Regarding the specific issue of how to tax the rich then IMO it should not be at the expense of helping those 'less well off' parents (aka 'working class') who might choose to save money from their monthly salary to send their kid(s) to a private school. To borrow NeilJ's stats from a later post: "The average (private) school fee is £15,000 PA. Average take home pay in the UK is under £26,000" Clearly the job requirements for investment banking don't include any ability to comprehend the real world.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Sept 30, 2023 9:36:52 GMT
Elon Musk has apparently been forwarding tweets from Germany's far right AfD. I really don't understand this man (not sure there is as much to understand as some think). The primary customer base for his cars both in Europe and the US is educated liberals. Apparently it's not uncommon for pick up drivers in the US to deliberately menace Teslas on the assumption they're driven by liberals. He seems to be doing all he can to alienate this demographic everywhere but seeing what he's done to twitter I'm not surprised. If you want to understand Musk look up the working practices in his Chinese factories.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2023 9:37:10 GMT
Judging by the endless queue of Range Rovers seen outside local private schools however they're very much in the minority. I think you need to get out more. In our little village the (primary) school run is signalled by an influx of Range Rovers, Mercs, Audis, and assorted other tank like vehicles delivering their small contents as near to the school gate as possible. The parents of these mobility challenged darlings park this brigade of fearsome vehicles outside the GP surgery, on peoples lawns, and generally gum up the vicinity for the ritual delivery . They then depart in convoy , ignoring all highway code instructions , driving on either side of the road -or the pavement , swearing at any pedestrian who is foolish enough to make a Tianenmen Squareprotest. And none of them are paying anything for this privilege.
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Post by Old Southendian on Sept 30, 2023 9:40:00 GMT
Its not obvious to me that a busy road at 20mph is any easier to cross than one at 30. If the total number of vehicles goes up 50% because the journey takes 50% longer at 20 than 30, then its going to be harder to find a gap in traffic. Can some of these roads survive 50% extra traffic from this scheme? That's a very lazy assumption that going from 30 to 20 mph will increase road traffic volume by 50%. My expectation is that the journey time is hardly affected at all by maximum speed at busy times. I don't have strong evidence for that. But just remember how many times you see people speeding up to a set of traffic lights or a big queue and having to jam on the brakes. Sure, travelling at 30 mph might occasionally shorten a rush hour journey by a minute or two, but it won't be 50% shorter, most of the time will be waiting in a queue. I'm not saying I support or oppose the 20 mph limit, I just think people would drive sensibly according to the conditions.
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 30, 2023 9:41:16 GMT
neilj Here's a previous leadership race line up ?
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 30, 2023 9:43:58 GMT
It's entirely about reducing deaths and injuries by avoiding collisions between vehicles and pedestrians and making them less severe when they do occur. Nothing else really matters as far as I'm concerned. Then you support a ban on all road vehicles? You dont care the economy would come to a halt because there was no transport? Its not helpful to make sweeping emotional statements such as you just did, which are however absurd if taken literally. If governments take that approach it leads to crazy and very harmful outcomes, like the world recession caused by covid lockdowns. Whereas in ww1 in a similar situation governments generally did their best to downplay flu and got on with running the war. Suppose Britain had said everyone must stop work because of the flu, all the soldiers isolate? Sure, thats an extreme example but it really isnt different in kind just in scale of the disaster which would have resulted. Successful policy making is about finding compromises and happy mediums. 10 mph lower at certain locations bringing the economy to a halt? 😂 All urban areas in notoriously jammed up Oxford are now 20. Seems to make the traffic flow better in my experience.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 30, 2023 9:58:02 GMT
someone like myself having a successful career in Investment Banking. Regarding the specific issue of how to tax the rich then IMO it should not be at the expense of helping those 'less well off' parents (aka 'working class') who might choose to save money from their monthly salary to send their kid(s) to a private school. To borrow NeilJ's stats from a later post: "The average (private) school fee is £15,000 PA. Average take home pay in the UK is under £26,000" Clearly the job requirements for investment banking don't include any ability to comprehend the real world. Ah Trevor.. It's occasionally interesting to get these quoted insights into his ongoing bonkersness. Just occasionally though..
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Post by somerjohn on Sept 30, 2023 9:59:12 GMT
Colin: "Eh?"
"Eh?" indeed.
I initially assumed you had finally lost patience with an incoherent, indecipherable and tiresomely belligerent posting style, in which case congratulations on seeing what the rest of us see.
But, on reflection, it seems possible that shared political views trump all and you're still sticking together. In which case the decrypted version of "Eh?" might be along the lines of, "Thanks for another typically lucid, erudite and thoughtful post, old chap, but what have your wise words got to do with me?"
Or maybe your "Eh?" reflected (shared) incredulity at Walter Mitty's latest self-aggrandising claim of "having a successful career in Investment Banking."
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Sept 30, 2023 10:01:17 GMT
Perhaps I misunderstand the intention of Starmer's attack on private schools. I thought he was trying to raise £1.6bn (using very optimistic assumptions) to pay for more money to go into state schools with a policy supposedly aimed at targeting the 'elite'. I've already posted comments showing his plan is flawed but I also posted YG polling on the issue that shows that attacking private schools is 'popular' as plurality of people have an 'unfavourable' view of private schools. Examples of Private Schools: Eton Reigate Grammar School (that became fee paying in 1976) - attended by Keir Starmer The school attended by Keir Mather, etc, etc... PS I expect the Starmer sock puppets will think Starmer's plan is fantastic, even when it has already changed and after it changes again. Yeh. But you seemed to be responding to my humorous post to pjw Ah, a simples case of a misunderstanding. I'll explain - I don't read the trolls - If one of my 'anti-fan club' of trolls does occasionally post something interesting (eg polling) then someone I do read might reply (as you did) - I then get to see what the troll wrote However in my reply to you I stated: "Have the trolls been attempting to misrepresent me (ie trolling) again. How 😴😴😴You deleted the comment but I'm not wasting my time unhiding their posts to read drivel"So I didn't get to see what the troll wrote in their reply to me only some drivel they did write. So polite request: if you do reply to someone who has felt the need to reply to me then please leave their entire comment OR also delete my name so it's clear your reply has no relevance to whatever the troll said in their reply to me. Ta muchly
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Sept 30, 2023 10:12:29 GMT
A modest tangent to younger years. A lot of day nurseries are 'private' and working class parents use those so that they can go to work*. I expect Starmer will clarify that he doesn't intend those kinds of private schools will be hit with VAT and buildings rates as they will almost certainly have to pass those costs onto some hard working parents who might then no longer be able to afford it and have to stop work to look after their kids in their 'early years'. www.starschildcaregroup.co.uk/blog/the-difference-between-a-nursery-school-and-a-day-nursery* A lot of private schools for older kids have what is often called 'wrap around care' where kids can go in earlier or stay later, once again allowing their parents to work - get promotions, further their career, earn a higher salary (paying a lot more tax), etc. Hence policies that make it harder for parents to work are IMO bad policies and I doubt Starmer is done 'evolving' his policy on private schools. NB Working class in the context of people who work rather than live off either inheritance or benefits (ie the vast majority of people aged 18-65 are 'working class'). Of course some people do not aspire to get promotions or a higher salary and that is fair enough - money can buy most things, but it can't buy you love . No 'working class' family has to save from their monthly salary to send their kids to private school - it is a choice! A choice that the parents of the two Keirs and plenty of others have chosen for their kids in the past. A choice that will be made harder by LAB's badly thought out attack on private schools.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2023 10:21:38 GMT
colin to the Trev “ Yeh. But you seemed to be responding to my humorous post to pjw ” I think that you should include warnings if you are posting something you think is “humorous” - and maybe some sort of signals as to exactly where the reader will be expected to laugh.
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