domjg
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Post by domjg on May 17, 2023 21:13:44 GMT
Lisa Nandy on Labour's social conservatism: She could probably drop social from her description. "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which. They're nothing if not determined to link Labour and the tories I'll give them that (I suppose under current circumstances they don't really have much else) and they probably wouldn't want to see this: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/keir-starmer-vision-new-labour-20-election |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 21:15:50 GMT
Lisa Nandy on Labour's social conservatism: She could probably drop social from her description. "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/These people operate in a fact free zone in which their minds are already made up. I suppose there is an understandable bitterness with independence looking less likely in the near future but this “pigs and man” cliche is just a bit childish. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 17, 2023 21:18:00 GMT
More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/These people operate in a fact free zone in which their minds are already made up. I suppose there is an understandable bitterness with independence looking less likely in the near future but this “pigs and man” cliche is just a bit childish. "this “pigs and man” cliche is just a bit childish" - I think it's been 'trotted'.. out here what feels like about ten times in recent weeks. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 21:20:29 GMT
hireton - I'm going to disagree with you this time on that Lisa Nandy clip. Not saying that everything she or Labour says and does is agreeable, but purely on the clip shown, where she talks of a "social conservatism", she goes on to say, and I think I've quoted it correctly here "There's a social conservatism...(within the Labour tradition)..that wants to protect and support the things that exist in communities and that have existed for some time and help to anchor people....". Personally, I think that's a very laudable aim. Perhaps call it something else, but to me this suggests someone thinking about social structures within communities, and how they matter and should be supported and strengthened. I think the attack is a little unfair. Very unfair if you watch the full clip. She is talking about working class social conservatism in the context of Dominic Cummings' "creative destruction" approach. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 21:22:23 GMT
More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which. They're nothing if not determined to link Labour and the tories I'll give them that (I suppose under current circumstances they don't really have much else) and they probably wouldn't want to see this: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/keir-starmer-vision-new-labour-20-electionIt makes political sense, in that the SNP and Labour are in direct competition for a lot of seats. But I don't like doctoring clips - underhand. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 21:24:11 GMT
Anybody who sees no difference between the Labour Party and modern Tories is failing deliberately. I'm not a great fan of labour but con have totally given up being a political party with wide appeal and chosen to appeal to factional and extreme right wing interests. Even far right of where you might expect the party of labour to be, labour is a lot more centrist than con. A lot more middle of the road. And frankly a lot less barking mad. I have noticed that time after time conservative minister put up to speak to the media each morning simply lie. They say things which cannot be believed. When re-questioned they repeat word for word their previous answer, which is obviously pre-prepared. No matter how absurd it is, its the official line and its their job to present it exactly, like puppets, doesnt matter most people will not believe it, but enough may to stay in power. And when it doesnt hold they are back in a few days saying the opposite. The whole Brexit saga was lies after lies. To stay in power. So no, there is a pretty enormous difference however bad labour might be. And while con this time in power have continued the story where Major left off, and was thrown out, the last labour government was actually pretty successful. Especially compared to the mess left by 'call me Dave'. (though even he knew the game was up when leave won and refused to take any further part in the disaster for the nation. He was chosen to be their front man pretending to lead a moderate right party. Worked to get them elected, but oh the cost to the nation.) |
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Post by leftieliberal on May 17, 2023 21:25:10 GMT
hireton “ The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." Anybody who sees no difference between the Labour Party and modern Tories is failing deliberately. I don't think that Martin Kettle agrees with you: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/keir-starmer-vision-new-labour-20-electionIf it is sustained, this disproportionate shift to Labour among working-class voters has the potential to be significant in two ways. The first, and more immediate, is that it puts more Conservative seats within reach for Labour. The second, with even longer-term implications for electoral geography, is that it points towards Labour reuniting its working-class and middle-class tribes after the fissures caused by Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn. (my emphasis) |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 21:38:35 GMT
pjw1961
"I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which."
That's poor, even for you. Among those who want Scotland to be a sovereign state there is the same range of political opinion on other areas of politics as there is among those who want the UK (or GB, in your case) to be a sovereign state.
I understand your wish for the current corrupt government of the UK, with its strong far right influence, to be despatched with all possible speed and thoroughness. That is something that I and most Scots wish too. I can also understand your recognition that much of the English electorate are more RoC than LoC and that to evict them from the governance of England, Labour has to be a moderate, reasonable, RoC party too.
The Scots electorate (whether wanting a Scots, GB or UK state) have long rejected that One Nation Toryism that you profess - whether it is implemented by Tories, Labour or Lib Dems.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 21:54:43 GMT
pjw1961
"I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which."
That's poor, even for you. Among those who want Scotland to be a sovereign state there is the same range of political opinion on other areas of politics as there is among those who want the UK (or GB, in your case) to be a sovereign state.
I understand your wish for the current corrupt government of the UK, with its strong far right influence, to be despatched with all possible speed and thoroughness. That is something that I and most Scots wish too. I can also understand your recognition that much of the English electorate are more RoC than LoC and that to evict them from the governance of England, Labour has to be a moderate, reasonable, RoC party too.
The Scots electorate (whether wanting a Scots, GB or UK state) have long rejected that One Nation Toryism that you profess - whether it is implemented by Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. The continual pretence from Scots Nats that Labour and the Tories are identical is "poor, even for you", as is the idea I profess "One Nation Toryism". It is, frankly a right load of old partisan b.....ks, and I will keep on fact checking nationalist nonsense. |
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Post by befuddledbadger on May 17, 2023 21:55:18 GMT
What's this, heaven forbid? SNP tub-thumpers being economical with the actualite?
This aberration is mystifying. What on earth can be spooking this once irresistible political force?
As the greatest living Scotsman, Sir Alex Ferguson once said, it seems to be getting all squeaky bum time in the Land of Nessie and Tunnocks biscuits.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 21:58:34 GMT
However, anyone that sees any significant difference between modern Labour and One Nation Toryism has misplaced their glasses, as well as their reason. I don't think that Martin Kettle agrees with you: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/keir-starmer-vision-new-labour-20-electionIf it is sustained, this disproportionate shift to Labour among working-class voters has the potential to be significant in two ways. The first, and more immediate, is that it puts more Conservative seats within reach for Labour. The second, with even longer-term implications for electoral geography, is that it points towards Labour reuniting its working-class and middle-class tribes after the fissures caused by Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn. (my emphasis)
It's not unusual for Lab/Con to accept and run with much of their predecessor's agenda (since that is what got their predecessors elected!). That has been the pattern of UK Governments that I have observed for the last 60 years. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 22:00:50 GMT
The continual pretence from Scots Nats that Labour and the Tories are identical is "poor, even for you", as is the idea I profess "One Nation Toryism". It is, frankly a right load of old partisan b.....ks, and I will keep on fact checking nationalist nonsense.
For example, I didn't (and never have) said that modern Labour is identical to modern Tories. They are, however very similar to One Nation Tories that used to be the dominant strand in the Conservative Party. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 22:02:24 GMT
What's this, heaven forbid? SNP tub-thumpers being economical with the actualite? This aberration is mystifying. What on earth can be spooking this once irresistible political force? As the greatest living Scotsman, Sir Alex Ferguson once said, it seems to be getting all squeaky bum time in the Land of Nessie and Tunnocks biscuits. The badger has left his sett.  |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 22:03:01 GMT
What's this, heaven forbid? SNP tub-thumpers being economical with the actualite? This aberration is mystifying. What on earth can be spooking this once irresistible political force? As the greatest living Scotsman, Sir Alex Ferguson once said, it seems to be getting all squeaky bum time in the Land of Nessie and Tunnocks biscuits. Alex Ferguson is of course a good sound sensible socialist. |
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Post by eor on May 17, 2023 22:09:05 GMT
So you really think De Santis can beat Biden in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan? Good luck with that one. Sorry, but to explain that comment. Those three rustbelt states are now so key to an American election and a republican win .For De Santis to win without them he would need to win Arizona, New Mexico, Colarado, Nevada and Georgia and not lose any states, and if anyone thinks North Carolina particularly, and maybe even West Virginia are safe for a hispanic against a good ould working class boy than they're living in a parallel universe. The way the American map is developing, maybe Trump is the only Republican who can win! - thanks for those. I don't think DeSantis will be the nominee (more likely to me is that either Trump pushes him out of the race and has the field to himself, or Trump fails to push him out and realising Trump is beatable others then join and DeSantis gets squeezed between Trump and one or more more moderate candidates). Caveat there is that I was wrong in almost every such prediction I made about how the 2016 campaign would unfold, and that even if DeSantis succeeds in getting blood into the water and other candidates join then there's still the risk that they would repeat the error of 2015/16 and many people would stay in the race too long instead of dropping out and rallying around one alternative candidate. But if DeSantis were to be the nominee... yes I'd bet on him to beat Biden tho I suspect it'd be pretty close. I don't think candidate demographics would play as big a role as you imply in the rust belt. Obama won those states against McCain, the epitome of a decent, respectable, white, Republican military hero, and the swings the good ould boy achieved in 2020 were tiny compared to 2016 - less than 2% in Michigan and less than 1% in the other two if I remember rightly. (UK definition of swing, not US), no better than the national average. As for Trump, certainly he'll be pushing the narrative that he's the only Republican that can win, and (along with totally distorting levels of name recognition) I suspect that's where a fair chunk of his current polling comes from. Of course, as steve points out, and as I've mentioned before, this may all yet be hypothetical if he ends up in jail. Tho after 7 years of trying they're not doing awfully well at putting him away... |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 22:10:42 GMT
What's this, heaven forbid? SNP tub-thumpers being economical with the actualite? This aberration is mystifying. What on earth can be spooking this once irresistible political force? As the greatest living Scotsman, Sir Alex Ferguson once said, it seems to be getting all squeaky bum time in the Land of Nessie and Tunnocks biscuits. Alex Ferguson is of course a good sound sensible socialist.
If that's your definition of "socialist", then most of us are!
(Oh. And he's also a British nationalist). |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 22:20:50 GMT
Alex Ferguson is of course a good sound sensible socialist.
If that's your definition of "socialist", then most of us are!
(Oh. And he's also a British nationalist)."In 1998, Ferguson was named in a list of the biggest private financial donors to the Labour Party. He is a self-described socialist."en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_FergusonAnd being opposed to Scottish independence, as Ferguson is, doesn't automatically make you a British nationalist (no idea on Ferguson's views on that). You are still unable to grasp that some of us are not nationalists at all and reject nationalism as an ideology. |
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Post by joeboy on May 17, 2023 23:11:54 GMT
Sorry, but to explain that comment. Those three rustbelt states are now so key to an American election and a republican win .For De Santis to win without them he would need to win Arizona, New Mexico, Colarado, Nevada and Georgia and not lose any states, and if anyone thinks North Carolina particularly, and maybe even West Virginia are safe for a hispanic against a good ould working class boy than they're living in a parallel universe. The way the American map is developing, maybe Trump is the only Republican who can win! - thanks for those. I don't think DeSantis will be the nominee (more likely to me is that either Trump pushes him out of the race and has the field to himself, or Trump fails to push him out and realising Trump is beatable others then join and DeSantis gets squeezed between Trump and one or more more moderate candidates). Caveat there is that I was wrong in almost every such prediction I made about how the 2016 campaign would unfold, and that even if DeSantis succeeds in getting blood into the water and other candidates join then there's still the risk that they would repeat the error of 2015/16 and many people would stay in the race too long instead of dropping out and rallying around one alternative candidate. But if DeSantis were to be the nominee... yes I'd bet on him to beat Biden tho I suspect it'd be pretty close. I don't think candidate demographics would play as big a role as you imply in the rust belt. Obama won those states against McCain, the epitome of a decent, respectable, white, Republican military hero, and the swings the good ould boy achieved in 2020 were tiny compared to 2016 - less than 2% in Michigan and less than 1% in the other two if I remember rightly. (UK definition of swing, not US), no better than the national average. As for Trump, certainly he'll be pushing the narrative that he's the only Republican that can win, and (along with totally distorting levels of name recognition) I suspect that's where a fair chunk of his current polling comes from. Of course, as steve points out, and as I've mentioned before, this may all yet be hypothetical if he ends up in jail. Tho after 7 years of trying they're not doing awfully well at putting him away... I do see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I'd buy the Obama/McCain comparison. Obama appealed to the traditional Democratic base on a number of levels, and the Democratic machine while it can be fractious at times, was clearly able to rally around the guy. McCain on the other hand, while a decent enough fella, did not have the 'hey buddy' ease of Biden with voters. He was also treated with deep suspicion by many in his own party which didn't help his cause. I also think there's a trap when we look at 2020 percentages, Biden polled 81 million votes, an extraordinary 12 million more votes than peak Obama in 2008. While that number may well drop if he's not running against Trump. I can't see DeSantis polling anywhere near Trump's numbers nationally, so Biden has to lose a lot of votes for DeSantis to even become competitive in many of the swing states. Another issue is whether the republicans can come through the primary process as a single party Up till now the anti-Trump faction have been relatively restrained, but if they find a leader to rally round who knows what could happen. And it's difficult to see Trump quietly leaving the stage if he's not the candidate. Compared to the above the Democrats begin the approach into the election year buoyed by their performance in the mid-terms, and with no serious contender to the incumbent from their own side. I hate to say it but the main danger to them at the moment is Biden's age. Anyway as you rightly say it's all hypothetical for now, and history has taught us not to try to predict American elections this far out. |
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Post by mercian on May 17, 2023 23:17:50 GMT
This made me come to the conclusion that Starkey was an idiot with a poor knowledge of history. Though having not even a tenuous link to the man I agree with your friend's assessment based mostly on his TV appearances. He always seemed to speak 'de haut en bas' as though he was instructing a toddler how to use a potty. Though I sometimes agreed with his opinions I imagine he would be a most unpleasant person to know personally. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 23:20:56 GMT
I'm not sure that their is any evidence that his political views were "socialist". He did (and probably still does) loathe the Tories.
If that's your definition of "socialist", then most of us are!
(Oh. And he's also a British nationalist). "In 1998, Ferguson was named in a list of the biggest private financial donors to the Labour Party. He is a self-described socialist."en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_FergusonAnd being opposed to Scottish independence, as Ferguson is, doesn't automatically make you a British nationalist (no idea on Ferguson's views on that). You are still unable to grasp that some of us are not nationalists at all and reject nationalism as an ideology. And you are totally incapable of understanding that there is no single "ideology of nationalism" outwith your somewhat fevered imagination. You have stated that you would prefer the state that you inhabit to have borders variant from the UK - you would like to see Irish unification, although quite way you haven't explained. You are, perfectly respectably, a "British Nationalist" who wants a British state. You can throw around your fanciful notions, and insist that you are indeed Humpty Dumpty - “When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. ' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.”but, despite your pretensions to be masterful, you are just carefully balancing on that wall. |
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Post by eor on May 17, 2023 23:24:46 GMT
eor - understand your reasoning, and apologies if I sounded a bit harsh. I do think that in general, there is a determined effort to ignore some very obvious data, although I appreciate the point you were making and your reasonings behind it. Meanwhile, a review conforming fears that post covid reactivation of latent TB is a live issue - journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0277807 It's unlikely to be a major problem here, but in many poorer countries this could be very serious over time. Every day brings more and more data that rings very loud alarm bells. The longer we opt to ignore the data, the greater the long term health crisis we will face on a global scale. We saw what labour shortages did to the economy post lockdowns, and we're heading back to that situation again through sickness, but this time on a more or less permanent basis. Covid infection is not inevitable, but we need to act coherently and consistently to prevent it. Thanks for that - didn't think you sounded harsh, just enveloped in the fight Personally I take the view that it's still out there, it's still unpleasant for many, dangerous to a minority of people, and very dangerous to a tiny minority of people. But that makes for a complicated position - I don't wear a mask in the supermarket unless I'm unwell and have no choice but to shop, but I make sure to give copious space to those that choose to wear one, especially in a queue. I wouldn't dream of going to see my elderly (and in one case particularly vulnerable) parents without taking a test first, and I'd take one before seeing even a group of young and healthy friends after a high-risk experience like spending all day in a meeting room with the same 20 people, or if I happen to get plausible symptoms. But even these approaches are messy. Our daughter at this age is ten times the risk vector either of us would ever be - she licks anything and everything that all the other kids have licked and she can cough right into your eyeball with no warning at all. But Nana is simply not going to refuse to cuddle her only granddaughter when we visit; she may not still be around the next time, or worse she may not have the strength and confidence to hold her next time. That said, we should surely still do what we can to reduce the risk of killing Nana, even if that's ultimately faffing around on the margins of the probabilities? |
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Post by mercian on May 17, 2023 23:27:55 GMT
A little sidelight on my career - I tried to set up a company allowing estate agents to advertise on the internet. Unfortunately it was 10 years before the World Wide Web so never got off the ground. Plus of course I was never much of a businessman.  More of a visionary. |
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Post by ptarmigan on May 17, 2023 23:38:10 GMT
More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which. They're nothing if not determined to link Labour and the tories I'll give them that (I suppose under current circumstances they don't really have much else) and they probably wouldn't want to see this: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/keir-starmer-vision-new-labour-20-electionThis strikes me as quite a strange and incoherent article. I don't see anything "remarkably bold" in attempting to win a majority - isn't that what every iteration of Cons and Lab try to do? His central argument seems to be that Starmer is successfully uniting working and middle-class voters, citing the increased swing in Brexit-voting areas. Fair enough, but Labour's Brexit policy - largely based around not mentioning Brexit - doesn't look like a viable strategy in the long term in the same way as the Tory Party's odd 2019 coalition hasn't proved to be very enduring. He identifies this very broad voting coalition, but there's very little mention of policy, or how such a voting coalition might be sustained (the only thing mentioned is housebuilding, and all parties pledge to build more houses, so I'm not sure how this sets Starmer's Labour apart, nor do I see it as a particularly working-class concern). If anything unites a large coalition of voters at present it's surely antipathy towards Cons, rather than enthusiasm for Lab. Also, couldn't help but be amused by the cognitive dissonance of "providing that the party remains a broad church and – crucially – avoids foolish accommodations with the activist left". So Kettle's happy for Lab to be a broad church so long as said church only comprises centrists. Hmm. I think Labour look on course for a majority but the desire to paint Starmer as "bold" or "audacious" is a bit of a stretch to say the least. |
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Post by mercian on May 17, 2023 23:44:27 GMT
However, we have large and small scale demonstrations and direct action in this country by a number of different groups (fuel protestors, anti-Brexit, environmental, trade unions) all the time. And from what I know of other countries, English people are really no more or less apathetic than any other nationality. When something really matters to them, like someone trying to build a sewage works near their home, people all over the world tend to protest. Let's not forget that what you people would probably consider RoC groups also demonstrate, though it takes more to get them agitated. www.countryside-alliance.org/resources/news/remembering-the-biggest-rural-protest-in-the-ukThis was caused by Blair's ridiculous hunting ban. |
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Post by mercian on May 17, 2023 23:52:37 GMT
Con adopted the view of maybe 10% of the nation. I think you'll find it was 52%. The people had spoken and the parliamentary shenanigans had dragged on for so long that Brexit had to happen in whatever form. And by the way, despite all the gloom and doom about it I can't see it's made any difference whatever. Yes we have inflation but that affects other countries too so has other causes. And oh dear our economic growth is a bit lower than other countries. Well isn't that what lefties want? How much economic growth do they think we'll have if we're not allowed to use petrol any more? |
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Post by mercian on May 17, 2023 23:56:51 GMT
But certainly a national characteristic perhaps because the "earlier" revolution you refer to didn't last long:- It was a mere 12 years after the execution in 1649 , and three years after Cromwell's death in 1658 ,that we changed our minds and restored the Monarchy. Something for hopeful Remain voters to ponder in their drawing rooms and libraries perhaps ? I have noted before that 12 years from now would be the minimum for a Brexit reversal (IMO). They'd better get their skates on! |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 0:00:13 GMT
pjw1961
"I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which."
That's poor, even for you. Among those who want Scotland to be a sovereign state there is the same range of political opinion on other areas of politics as there is among those who want the UK (or GB, in your case) to be a sovereign state.
I understand your wish for the current corrupt government of the UK, with its strong far right influence, to be despatched with all possible speed and thoroughness. That is something that I and most Scots wish too. I can also understand your recognition that much of the English electorate are more RoC than LoC and that to evict them from the governance of England, Labour has to be a moderate, reasonable, RoC party too.
The Scots electorate (whether wanting a Scots, GB or UK state) have long rejected that One Nation Toryism that you profess - whether it is implemented by Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. I generally try to ignore some of the more obvious, intense, ongoing, unwinnable spats that take up so much UKPR2 bandwidth, (Alec/Danny, Steve/Jib etc.), which generate a lot of heat but not much light. It disappoints me that we now seem to be arriving at a similar situation with two more of the board's most informed contributors. I greatly respect Oldnat's (apologies for lack of blue highlighting of usernames - it's a real pain to do on my rubbish little tablet) wit and knowledge, and I regard PJW1961as one of the most erudite, informed and persuasive of posters. Everybody on this site has their own political standpoint, which is not going to be moved to a significant degree by any amount of virtual ink being expended by anyone trying to achieve a rapier bon mot to the heart and bring about a Damascene conversion. It just ain't going to happen. So maybe stick to the polling and the off-the-wall stuff that is one of the site's great virtues? Just a thought. |
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Post by ptarmigan on May 18, 2023 0:02:06 GMT
Reading about the NatCon conference (some of which I've certainly found rather chilling), I couldn't help but recall the "swivel-eyed loons" remark which got David Cameron in some trouble ten years ago. It was Cameron, of course, who attempted to placate those same "swivel-eyed loons" in promising a referendum, which precipitated Brexit, the purge of the One Nation Tories and Johnsonian popularism. Nowadays, swivel-eyed loondom within the Conservative Party isn't merely confined to the nuttier fringe, it is very much a mainstream position, as the presence of several prominent MPs at this conference demonstrates. It's tempting to think of Cameron as one of the more palatable Tory leaders of recent times due to his social liberalism (and, frankly, the lack of competition) but his legacy is dreadful. It would have been bad enough had he merely overseen austerity - that he also had such a hand in the present chapter of UK politics marks his tenure out as truly disastrous.
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Post by mercian on May 18, 2023 0:04:40 GMT
She could probably drop social from her description. "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." She is obviously pandering to the new 'communities' who tend to vote Labour. You know the ones - they are socially conservative in the sense of arranged marriages and so on. I wonder how that sits with the LGBTXYZ community who also tend to vote Labour? |
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Post by mercian on May 18, 2023 0:08:15 GMT
Here's a BBC article from April about three sea king helicopters being sent to Ukraine. The noteable tag line is that one of them took part in the Falklands campaign. The article explains that the Ukrainians wanted fighter jets, but we dont have any jets of any sort to spare never mind the sort they want. But we did have some old obsolete helicopters which we have refurbished and sent to them. "Pilot Vasil says that getting hold of a Sea King is like replacing your old car with a classic "foreign car". "It is so practical. We would like to receive more helicopters like these," he says. Back in England, engineer Ihor concedes new aircraft would perhaps be better, but adds: "It's better than nothing and it's only the beginning." Except....this beginning is 12 months into a war, so not exactly at the beginning. And just as with the rocket launcher vehicles, what we are actually sending is refurbished old equipment we hadnt got round to scrapping yet. It shows two things. Britain is very definitely a second or maybe third rate military power. In particular we had this debate here before, the UK has concentrated expenditure in its navy, which is f-all use in a protracted land war. And it has insufficient stocks of ammunition to support such a war. The second, fine words butter no parsnips. We do not seem to have done much in terms of expediting new equipment purchases to supply Ukraine. Although it is possible there is no industrial capacity to manufacture same. We did sell off all that. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65242823Negative about everything we do. It gets very tedious. Who cares what 'rate' power we are, we're helping the Ukraine more than most countries are. |
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More of a visionary.
