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Post by leftieliberal on May 17, 2023 16:50:21 GMT
More from the NatC rally: "The Christian nature and origins of the British people are inescapable. Britain is a Christian nation--or it is nothing at all." - JS Milbank at #NatCon's panel "God & Country" Interesting news for the Prime Minister, Home Secretary, Mayor of London, Leaders of the SNP and Scottish Labour, etc. and that's before we get to all the atheists and agnostics. Like the monarchy, christianity is destined to continue to decline until - probably not for a very long time but the graph lines don’t lie - neither exist in the UK. Interestingly, Christianity is strongest among Africans and Caribbeans in this country and those areas with the highest immigrant populations also have the most vibrant churches, notably London. You probably wouldn't like their conservative evangelical position though. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:03:25 GMT
He could have looked just over the channel where there is a long tradition of street violence to achieve political change going back to the revolution. It must be a source of great frustration for those of a revolutionary inclination , that there is no history of violent national revolution here on the scale of 18C France or 20C Russia. I like the assessment in the WIKI on Chartism that :-" Chartism was not, "a movement that failed but a movement characterized by multiplicity of small victories." All very civilised by comparison:- oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-202/lecture-11en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartism |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:14:04 GMT
I had a few pints of Befuddled Badger one time when I was down in Dorset. It definitely made me feckless. A little bit of Hall and Woodhouse's finest, I presume. By the way, I hope you're not using the word feckless here as in the accursed "brewer's droop". (My liking for the word befuddled comes from an old mate of mine who, when asked late in the evening on a night out how he was, often replied "befuddled with drink, I'm afraid". It was his stock phrase. His party pieces, when befuddled, were very good renditions of the Stones "Get Off My Cloud" and Procul Harem's "Whiter Shade of Pale." The waiter regularly brought trays in those days as we skipped the light fandango. Good old Mike, I wonder where he is now? Still befuddled after all these years, I expect, but as merry and happy as he always used to be, I hope.) I had an Irish friend who used to - affectionately I always felt - refer to me as “a miserly feck” so have taken to reversing that for my stage-name. FM |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:15:57 GMT
He could have looked just over the channel where there is a long tradition of street violence to achieve political change going back to the revolution. It must be a source of great frustration for those of a revolutionary inclination , that there is no history of violent national revolution here on the scale of 18C France or 20C Russia. I like the assessment in the WIKI on Chartism that :-" Chartism was not, "a movement that failed but a movement characterized by multiplicity of small victories." All very civilised by comparison:- oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-202/lecture-11en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChartismThat probably is something to be proud of. Although I suppose we did a lot of it a lot earlier than them. (Something else to be proud of - bleedin’ slackers.) |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 17, 2023 17:21:11 GMT
Redfield Wilton Wales,
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Post by hireton on May 17, 2023 17:32:56 GMT
Ah, Tom McTague trying to normalise the far right. Who'd have thought it. Here's McTague arguing fof a bit of good old military despotism to make us all good British nationalists:
"Today, Britain also needs a reforming state to once again bind the country together, to protect the things we have — nation, state, constitutional freedom and prosperity. We need more shared rituals, irrational or otherwise; more shared institutions; and more shared endeavours in order for us to keep telling a national story and not multiple little sub-national novellas that are unintelligible to the other. The old oak needs cutting back to be able to grow again. Vive L’Empereur! "
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:34:37 GMT
It must be a source of great frustration for those of a revolutionary inclination , that there is no history of violent national revolution here on the scale of 18C France or 20C Russia. I like the assessment in the WIKI on Chartism that :-" Chartism was not, "a movement that failed but a movement characterized by multiplicity of small victories." All very civilised by comparison:- oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-202/lecture-11en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChartismThat probably is something to be proud of. Although I suppose we did a lot of it a lot earlier than them. (Something else to be proud of - bleedin’ slackers.) You have to be a bit careful about "pride" hereabouts-certainly if it relates to our country. So perhaps its best to say that its a matter of judgement and preference . But certainly a national characteristic perhaps because the "earlier" revolution you refer to didn't last long:- It was a mere 12 years after the execution in 1649 , and three years after Cromwell's death in 1658 ,that we changed our minds and restored the Monarchy. Something for hopeful Remain voters to ponder in their drawing rooms and libraries perhaps ? |
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Post by domjg on May 17, 2023 17:47:17 GMT
Ah, Tom McTague trying to normalise the far right. Who'd have thought it. Here's McTague arguing fof a bit of good old military despotism to make us all good British nationalists: "Today, Britain also needs a reforming state to once again bind the country together, to protect the things we have — nation, state, constitutional freedom and prosperity. We need more shared rituals, irrational or otherwise; more shared institutions; and more shared endeavours in order for us to keep telling a national story and not multiple little sub-national novellas that are unintelligible to the other. The old oak needs cutting back to be able to grow again. Vive L’Empereur! " Straight out.. I mean literally straight out of the mouth of the early nineteen thirties. 'Shared endeavours' eh? I wonder what he means by that.. |
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Post by moby on May 17, 2023 18:02:26 GMT
Ah, Tom McTague trying to normalise the far right. Who'd have thought it. Here's McTague arguing fof a bit of good old military despotism to make us all good British nationalists: "Today, Britain also needs a reforming state to once again bind the country together, to protect the things we have — nation, state, constitutional freedom and prosperity. We need more shared rituals, irrational or otherwise; more shared institutions; and more shared endeavours in order for us to keep telling a national story and not multiple little sub-national novellas that are unintelligible to the other. The old oak needs cutting back to be able to grow again. Vive L’Empereur! " Straight out.. I mean literally straight out of the mouth of the early nineteen thirties. 'Shared endeavours' eh? I wonder what he means by that.. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 17, 2023 18:13:06 GMT
He could have looked just over the channel where there is a long tradition of street violence to achieve political change going back to the revolution. It must be a source of great frustration for those of a revolutionary inclination , that there is no history of violent national revolution here on the scale of 18C France or 20C Russia. I like the assessment in the WIKI on Chartism that :-" Chartism was not, "a movement that failed but a movement characterized by multiplicity of small victories." All very civilised by comparison:- oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-202/lecture-11en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChartismI was thinking more about more people getting out and peacefully registering their displeasure with things in the here and now instead of just waiting till the next election. I wasn't advocating violent revolution or even riots. I actually think the Chartists are a great example of political change by determined civic action and demonstration. Having said that I do think we'd be in a better place today had we trimmed the aristocracy at some point in the past. |
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Post by alec on May 17, 2023 18:15:33 GMT
hireton - from Scotland, Wales and NI, I see little "constitutional freedom". Rather, the "shared endeavours" seems more "doing what we tell you to do".
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Post by alec on May 17, 2023 18:15:52 GMT
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Post by James E on May 17, 2023 18:17:21 GMT
Another low swing in Wales per R&W 7.5%, but this is consistent with other polling evidence. R&W's own recent cross-breaks put the Con>Lab swing in Wales at 11% compared to an average of 14%.
It would still be still enough to reduce the Tories to very few seats in Wales, where there are a lot of close-range labour targets. On the old boundaries, the Conservatives would retain 3 seats per UNS on this poll - or none if their vote-losses are proportionate in the 3 longer range seats of Monmouth, Camarthen West and Pembrokeshre South, and Clwyd West.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 17, 2023 18:19:49 GMT
That probably is something to be proud of. Although I suppose we did a lot of it a lot earlier than them. (Something else to be proud of - bleedin’ slackers.) You have to be a bit careful about "pride" hereabouts-certainly if it relates to our country. So perhaps its best to say that its a matter of judgement and preference . But certainly a national characteristic perhaps because the "earlier" revolution you refer to didn't last long:- It was a mere 12 years after the execution in 1649 , and three years after Cromwell's death in 1658 ,that we changed our minds and restored the Monarchy. Something for hopeful Remain voters to ponder in their drawing rooms and libraries perhaps ? I've got a bookcase in the dining room. Does that count? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 18:21:23 GMT
There's always a point where you have to stop and think if you have crossed a red line and Green Belt is one of those things that was created for a reason and has been in place for decades precisely to create a red line even if it already gets nibbled away at. Particularly depressing because it demonstrates human nature for what it is that we are never willing to make even the smallest of sacrifices to protect the planet. The London green belt was conceived at a time it was intended to shrink the population of London. To move people out of the city to new settlements elsewhere. New towns, which actually got built. But since then town planning has collapsed! We have reversed tho policy of shrinking London but provided no more space in which to house those people. We have stopped building new towns. A green belt is only credible as part of an overall plan which provides housing somewhere. Its an utter scandal that we have chosen to ration housing by price, so the rich have decent large homes and the poor find their homes get smaller year by year. Its an outrage no one should accept in a rich society. Equally bad, rationing by price means we have created an expensive labour supply in the UK, which is bad for the entire economy. All workers have to be paid extra to afford that very expensive housing. An economic as well as a moral disaster. Time was, i remember writing an essay in an exam about housing, 45 years ago. I said how awful the look of modern newbuilt housing was, the terrible tower blocks, many of which have since been demolished or given new facades. And we couldnt even get that right, turning them into massive fire hazards because government abolished proper building inspections. But at least back in the 60s we did build the housing which people needed. Instead of this despicable refusal to do so. I entirely agree. But having decided to grow the population it is utterly unacceptable not to build homes for those people. i agree towns should be built with space included for nature. the victorians understood the need for parks. But do you really think modern planning rules would place those big parks in the centre of London? not a chance! The green belt policy is ensuring parks all over the country are turning into buildings. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 18:28:15 GMT
You have to be a bit careful about "pride" hereabouts-certainly if it relates to our country. So perhaps its best to say that its a matter of judgement and preference . But certainly a national characteristic perhaps because the "earlier" revolution you refer to didn't last long:- It was a mere 12 years after the execution in 1649 , and three years after Cromwell's death in 1658 ,that we changed our minds and restored the Monarchy. Something for hopeful Remain voters to ponder in their drawing rooms and libraries perhaps ? I've got a bookcase in the dining room. Does that count? Have you got any books? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 18:32:59 GMT
while they themselves think they perfectly deserve to accept large amounts of lobbying, 'consultancy' cash for doing very little. They don't make the connection between the two as they believe themselves to be a rarefied species apart. But they are a rarefied species. The new nobility who rule this country. Who understand perfectly that if they give largess to others, they do not get it themselves. Wallpaper for No. 10? No problem. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 18:35:43 GMT
You have to be a bit careful about "pride" hereabouts-certainly if it relates to our country. So perhaps its best to say that its a matter of judgement and preference . But certainly a national characteristic perhaps because the "earlier" revolution you refer to didn't last long:- It was a mere 12 years after the execution in 1649 , and three years after Cromwell's death in 1658 ,that we changed our minds and restored the Monarchy. Something for hopeful Remain voters to ponder in their drawing rooms and libraries perhaps ? I've got a bookcase in the dining room. Does that count? Ah, but you have a dining room. Champagne socialist! |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 18:48:23 GMT
The one and only local government by-election this week happens to be on a Wednesday for some reason - so here are the facts: STROUD DC; Painswick & Upton (Con resigned) Candidates: LUFF, Gary Alan (Green) PATHAK-SEN, Ela (Labour) SAVAGE, Roz (Liberal Democrat) WILLIAMS, Sue (Conservative) 2021: Con 1408, 1279, 1279; Grn 1128, 1128; Lab 785 Therefore if it follows the recent local election trend looks a potential Green gain. Thanks to Andrew's Previews I now know why the by-election is on a Wednesday. Stroud DC have their AGM tomorrow, so by having the election today the new councillor will be able to start work immediately. Counts tonight btw. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 19:01:23 GMT
The basis of political stability has much more to do with economic well-being rather than any ideological belief or preference. If you gave people the choice between supporting a democracy and getting 300 calories a day or 2500 for a communist or fascist regime, most would go with the latter. When a group in society start to feel that their economic well-being/opportunities/share of wealth is threatened, that tends to breed political radicalisation. In recent times, the negative impacts of globalisation, austerity, disparities in wealth between generations, have all been major contributors to increased political polarisation over the past 20 years, and growing support for political extremes. Brexit happened because leave were able to persuade enough people it would not cost them a penny. But in terms of revolution, Thatcher established a policy of insufficient homes for the UK population. Its been a slow burn, but it has turned moderates away from the conservatives. Labour hasnt really done much to reverse it. You can see how revolution might come about. yesterday the R4 discussion about rented housing moved to the standard advice given to people unable to find a new home but being evicted from their current rented one. To stay put until a court formally evicts them, thereby placing a duty upon the local authority to rehouse. To do this local authorities are currently being forced to buy up homes on the open market. Which of course simply brings another actor into the mix, forcing up property prices further. This can only end very bady indeed unless more homes are urgently built. Thatcher didnt envisage that no new homes would be built, but that the private sector would provide. Well, government chose to cut off that route too. How can voters tolerate governments which forbid them to have homes? |
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Post by johntel on May 17, 2023 19:04:26 GMT
He could have looked just over the channel where there is a long tradition of street violence to achieve political change going back to the revolution. It must be a source of great frustration for those of a revolutionary inclination , that there is no history of violent national revolution here on the scale of 18C France or 20C Russia. I like the assessment in the WIKI on Chartism that :-" Chartism was not, "a movement that failed but a movement characterized by multiplicity of small victories." All very civilised by comparison:- oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-202/lecture-11en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChartismThrough researching my family history I learnt a lot about the Chartists and also about Primitive Methodism and it left me with a huge admiration for the work they did in the nineteenth century. Those 'small victories' contributed to big improvements in conditions for the working class in the nineteenth century. www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/the-role-of-methodism-in-the-chartist-movement/ |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 19:10:57 GMT
Monarch, from the ancient greek Mono (one) Archon (ruler), says it all really! That would be Rishi then. Its a rather bad joke to call the king of England a 'monarch'. |
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Post by hireton on May 17, 2023 20:18:51 GMT
Lisa Nandy on Labour's social conservatism:
She could probably drop social from her description.
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 20:45:15 GMT
Lisa Nandy on Labour's social conservatism: She could probably drop social from her description. "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
Roger McGough had an accurate description of the current Labour approach.
I wanna be the leader
I wanna be the leader
Can I be the leader?
Can I? I can?
Promise? Promise?
Yippee I'm the leader
I'm the leader
OK what shall we do? |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 20:45:48 GMT
hireton“ The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." Anybody who sees no difference between the Labour Party and modern Tories is failing deliberately.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 17, 2023 20:50:15 GMT
hireton “ The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." Anybody who sees no difference between the Labour Party and modern Tories is failing deliberately. |
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Post by eor on May 17, 2023 20:53:19 GMT
there hasn't been an election in I think about a century where one of the hopeful nominees is also the former President. While I largely agree with your post, I will pick up on this point. Certainly since WWII, there have been few presidents indeed in Trump's position, mostly due to the rule that no US president may seek a third term...and also due to death (Kennedy) and resignation (Nixon). In fact there have only ever been two post war presidents that went to first term that then lost but could have stood again had they wanted to, namely Carter and Bush I. (Not sure about Ford, a president that took over from Nixon a year into the latter's second term after impeachment, but, even if Ford could have stood, that would still make only 3). I, for one do not want to see Trump in the White House, especially with the Ukraine war going on...but, to put the blame on the current state of US politics is a little disengenuous for the reason I have outlined above. - I referenced how rare it is specifically in the context that it makes current polling even less reliable than it would normally be at this stage in the cycle. No blame being applied anywhere! |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 17, 2023 21:03:29 GMT
Lisa Nandy on Labour's social conservatism: She could probably drop social from her description. "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." More nonsense from the Scots Nats again. That clip dates back to September 2019 when Nandy was running for the Labour leadership and has been edited to take that remark entirely out of context. The full 6 minutes 42 seconds is here - watch it and make your own minds up about what she was saying. unherd.com/thepost/lisa-nandy-on-social-conservatism-and-dominic-cummings/I looked from Tory nationalist to Scottish nationalist and from Scottish Nationalist to Tory nationalist again but already it was impossible to say which was which. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 17, 2023 21:04:20 GMT
Here's a BBC article from April about three sea king helicopters being sent to Ukraine. The noteable tag line is that one of them took part in the Falklands campaign. The article explains that the Ukrainians wanted fighter jets, but we dont have any jets of any sort to spare never mind the sort they want. But we did have some old obsolete helicopters which we have refurbished and sent to them. "Pilot Vasil says that getting hold of a Sea King is like replacing your old car with a classic "foreign car". "It is so practical. We would like to receive more helicopters like these," he says. Back in England, engineer Ihor concedes new aircraft would perhaps be better, but adds: "It's better than nothing and it's only the beginning." Except....this beginning is 12 months into a war, so not exactly at the beginning. And just as with the rocket launcher vehicles, what we are actually sending is refurbished old equipment we hadnt got round to scrapping yet. It shows two things. Britain is very definitely a second or maybe third rate military power. In particular we had this debate here before, the UK has concentrated expenditure in its navy, which is f-all use in a protracted land war. And it has insufficient stocks of ammunition to support such a war. The second, fine words butter no parsnips. We do not seem to have done much in terms of expediting new equipment purchases to supply Ukraine. Although it is possible there is no industrial capacity to manufacture same. We did sell off all that. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65242823 |
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Post by alec on May 17, 2023 21:11:34 GMT
hireton - I'm going to disagree with you this time on that Lisa Nandy clip. Not saying that everything she or Labour says and does is agreeable, but purely on the clip shown, where she talks of a "social conservatism", she goes on to say, and I think I've quoted it correctly here "There's a social conservatism...(within the Labour tradition)..that wants to protect and support the things that exist in communities and that have existed for some time and help to anchor people....". Personally, I think that's a very laudable aim. Perhaps call it something else, but to me this suggests someone thinking about social structures within communities, and how they matter and should be supported and strengthened. I think the attack is a little unfair.
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