24-April 2023 : LAB 44% / CON 29% / LDEM 11% / GRN 5%

[Deleted]

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

“. It believes nations are distinctive and should seek to protect this distinctiveness instead of pursuing universal ideas such as global free trade, human rights, international law and the like.”

Oh, that sounds great. I suppose Russia is a world leader in protecting its “distinctiveness” - so a sort of role model perhaps?

FM

[Deleted]

I see that Ann Widdecombe - who doesn’t look as though she has ever suffered a shortage of a cheese sandwich or two - has had her “Let them eat cake” moment.

Compassionate Conservatism at its finest. However, best to concentrate on being proud of our country and its history and institutions and not worry about poorer people going hungry.

FM

[Deleted]

May 17, 2023 10:16:01 GMT @fecklessmiser said:

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

“. It believes nations are distinctive and should seek to protect this distinctiveness instead of pursuing universal ideas such as global free trade, human rights, international law and the like.”

Oh, that sounds great. I suppose Russia is a world leader in protecting its “distinctiveness” - so a sort of role model perhaps?

FM

Apologies for my “salivating hype”. 

[pjw1961]

May 17, 2023 10:12:37 GMT leftieliberal said:

May 16, 2023 18:12:58 GMT James E said:

I find it rather provide silly for this site to provide a seats projection for each and every poll. 

It's just political clickbait; let's not encourage them.

Stats for Lefties has a political agenda and is selective about what it posts as well. I don't think that is a good approach - and I would say the same about a centrist or right wing equivalent. 

[befuddledbadger]

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

The problem with this is that all political movements, however malign their ends may be, will couch their intentions and objectives in fairly anodyne and platitudinous terms. More than anything, they crave mainstream acceptability. It's probably best to judge them by who they attract and what they actually say and do.

I mean, to put it bluntly, if they walk and talk like a far right politician, they probably are.

Douglas Murray and Suella Braverman being typical quacking ducks.

[pjw1961]

May 17, 2023 10:24:44 GMT @fecklessmiser said:

I see that Ann Widdecombe - who doesn’t look as though she has ever suffered a shortage of a cheese sandwich or two - has had her “Let them eat cake” moment.

Compassionate Conservatism at its finest. However, best to concentrate on being proud of our country and its history and institutions and not worry about poorer people going hungry.

FM

To be fair Widdecombe is no longer in the Tory Party - was UKIP now RefUK. 

[neilj]

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

Thanks for posting, an interesting historical analysis
People can argue whether the historical national conservative agenda is good or not, but what is clear from what the author says is that ths current incarnation is not the same

"Even this week, when I asked one Conservative MP who attended NatCon if he could define the essence of conservatism, he replied: “Trust the people."
The most glaring problem with the national conservatism on display this week is that it’s not entirely clear it still does...
The problem is that, beyond this analysis, what does British national conservatism amount to? Listening to this week’s speeches, it all feels so inchoate and, ironically, alien from the people"

[neilj]

More craziness from the National Conservatives

[neilj]

Some tories are not okay with it

[alec]

Danny - like I say, for someone so invested in conspiracy theories, you are incredibly gullible when you listen to the excuses given on covid impacts.

Open your eyes.

[Deleted]

befuddledbadger

Well, well, well……I have been looking in on this site for a long while and this is the first time I can recall two new members in twenty four hours. It had the feel of a closed club where you needed to make at least a thousand posts before being partially accepted.

(A bit like some places in Cumbria where you’re an “in-comer” if you can’t trace your family roots back to the 17th century.)

Anyway, as an old hand myself now - welcome to the club.

FM

[leftieliberal]

Labour would build on the Green Belt: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65619675

Living as I do on the north-western outskirts of London, I am very conscious of how the introduction of Green Belts brought to a halt the unsightly ribbon development that so characterised the 1930s. Less than 100 years ago, the land that my house stands on was farmers' fields that were bought up by the developers following the extension of what is now the Jubilee Line to Stanmore. I doubt that it is any coincidence that the majority of MPs representing constituencies on the outer boundaries of Greater London are either Tory or Liberal Democrat, whilst almost all London Labour MPs represent Inner London constituencies (as Starmer does). Once the Green Belt protections are gone one can see the developers swooping on what are considered 'low value' sites in the Green Belt like Garden Centres (the one on the northern edge of Stanmore has been there for more than fifty years) and the RNOH, while the old Marconi Defence Systems site at The Grove which was redeveloped as housing in the early 2000s could see housing further extended down the hill towards the M1. None of these sites could be described as beautiful, but it is their location within the Green Belt that has protected them so far (the limited housing development on the Marconi site was restricted to the footprint of the previous industrial buildings). Just because land is low quality in agricultural terms and not 'beautiful' does not mean that it has no value in ecological terms. 

[domjg]

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

Reading this reminds me a bit of the trajectory of the Catholic church. It has always been forced to adapt to the times in which it finds itself by outside forces, by pressure of modernisation and progression in wider society. It wasn't going to make those changes of it's own accord and without that outside pressure the church would still be holding mass in Latin and denouncing as a heretic (or worse) anyone who had a problem with that. 

British conservatism it seems to me is similar, it's been forced to adapt to the modern reality of the nation over time by outside forces while still managing to retain it's identity and many of the privileges of it's constituency. Conservatism is never and has never been about stopping change in it's entirety or forcing it backwards but that seems to be what these Natcons want to attempt. 

They seem to talk a lot of personal morality and Christian revival (which I guess reflects it's American template) but that is alien to the British Conservative tradition and even Disraeli would have recognised that. The language is of taking us back to a time of religiosity and deference to state/establishment power that has probably not existed in any way in this country for the last hundred years at least. 

This may be a calm appraisal of the phenomenon, seeking to put it in the wider context of a history of conservatism but if you were parents of a child in a single sex family, a recent (or maybe not so recent) immigrant, would you not feel very alarmed by this talk? 

As someone whose primary loyalty is (no longer) to this country but who nonetheless believes passionately in western values and would defend them any which way, evem I find myself wondering if some at that conference wouldn't like to see people like me forcibly 're-educated' in some way. 

[steve]

@fecklessmiser

Everyone welcome it's not a local site for local people the more the merrier.

[domjg]

May 17, 2023 10:16:01 GMT @fecklessmiser said:

May 17, 2023 9:20:26 GMT colin said:

Mercifully free of salivating hype , a calm and interesting perspective on the history behind the Nat Cons :-

unherd.com/2023/05/will-national-conservatism-trust-the-people/

“. It believes nations are distinctive and should seek to protect this distinctiveness instead of pursuing universal ideas such as global free trade, human rights, international law and the like.”

Oh, that sounds great. I suppose Russia is a world leader in protecting its “distinctiveness” - so a sort of role model perhaps?

FM

They are seeking to impose stuff that if valued in society shouldn't need to be imposed it should be organic. If a people need to have their supposed national 'traditions' shoved down their throat rather than unselfconsciously following them, if they need to be forced to feel 'pride' in their country then it's a losing battle. National and tribal identities come and go, human beings have changed them like clothes at different points in human history. If you need to try to bolster them artificially then the battle is already lost. 

I was proud to be British when being so meant shying away from shows of performative patriotism or even talking about it, was proud of our perceived tolerance and apparent easy pragmatism. I'm not proud to be British anymore.

[shevii]

May 17, 2023 10:29:10 GMT pjw1961 said:

May 17, 2023 10:12:37 GMT leftieliberal said:

Stats for Lefties has a political agenda and is selective about what it posts as well. I don't think that is a good approach - and I would say the same about a centrist or right wing equivalent. 

He has a political agenda for sure but I think you are being over critical as he tweets every poll and uses the seat projection thing as standard, so he is consistent in the way he tweets polls (ie seat projection EVERY time and Lab lead "rises"/"falls" EVERY time).  I would agree with you that posting a seat projection is pointless on individual polls and probably more nuance is needed on the rising/falling when they could be outliers but not sure this is a huge crime if he is consistent. 

What he chooses to highlight within a poll is partially politically motivated but that could be said for anyone really including the more established accounts and people whether it be Britain Elects or John Curtice when they are making a particular point.

[graham]

May 17, 2023 10:24:44 GMT @fecklessmiser said:

I see that Ann Widdecombe - who doesn’t look as though she has ever suffered a shortage of a cheese sandwich or two - has had her “Let them eat cake” moment.

Compassionate Conservatism at its finest. However, best to concentrate on being proud of our country and its history and institutions and not worry about poorer people going hungry.

FM

And such a devout Christian lady too. I wonder whether she will ever begin to practice what she preaches.!

[alec]

colin has entered the 'calm and sober' analysis mode.

It must be a far right Conservative conference, with shades of antisemitism then.

Couldn't find the 'calm and sober' stuff when Corbyn was in the crosshairs.

Must have missed it.

[neilj]

Not sure Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden accusing the SNP of not taking responsibility for their own record in government, despite being in power for over a decade, will have quite the effect he wanted...

[lululemonmustdobetter]

May 17, 2023 11:09:37 GMT domjg said:

As someone whose primary loyalty is (no longer) to this country but who nonetheless believes passionately in western values and would defend them any which way, evem I find myself wondering if some at that conference wouldn't like to see people like me forcibly 're-educated' in some way. 

Count yourself lucky, they would have the likes of me wearing red and popping kids out every year!

[shevii]

May 17, 2023 11:05:06 GMT leftieliberal said:

Labour would build on the Green Belt: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65619675

Living as I do on the north-western outskirts of London, I am very conscious of how the introduction of Green Belts brought to a halt the unsightly ribbon development that so characterised the 1930s. Less than 100 years ago, the land that my house stands on was farmers' fields that were bought up by the developers following the extension of what is now the Jubilee Line to Stanmore. I doubt that it is any coincidence that the majority of MPs representing constituencies on the outer boundaries of Greater London are either Tory or Liberal Democrat, whilst almost all London Labour MPs represent Inner London constituencies (as Starmer does). Once the Green Belt protections are gone one can see the developers swooping on what are considered 'low value' sites in the Green Belt like Garden Centres (the one on the northern edge of Stanmore has been there for more than fifty years) and the RNOH, while the old Marconi Defence Systems site at The Grove which was redeveloped as housing in the early 2000s could see housing further extended down the hill towards the M1. None of these sites could be described as beautiful, but it is their location within the Green Belt that has protected them so far (the limited housing development on the Marconi site was restricted to the footprint of the previous industrial buildings). Just because land is low quality in agricultural terms and not 'beautiful' does not mean that it has no value in ecological terms. 

It's hugely depressing, especially given you are putting that power into the hands of local councils filled with part time politicians, some of whom will be good and representative, some will be poor quality people making short term political decisions or influenced by who they know. Others will be borderline or literally corrupt.

There's always a point where you have to stop and think if you have crossed a red line and Green Belt is one of those things that was created for a reason and has been in place for decades precisely to create a red line even if it already gets nibbled away at.  Particularly depressing because it demonstrates human nature for what it is that we are never willing to make even the smallest of sacrifices to protect the planet.  The "sacrifice" in this case is not about sacrificing people who can't find a place to live but about controlling population such that there will be enough land available without eating into Green land.

We had this debate the other day about immigration and I have no doubt that people on here were correct when they said there was a strong (maybe even majority) racist or cultural element to anti immigration sentiments but that isn't a reason for not being deeply concerned about population growth in this country as well as failing to create a society where we can't function without needing more and more people.  Those who are pro immigration never seem to suggest an upper limit on this.

I'd even extend your arguments into brownfield sites to be honest.  Case by case basis, but too often we can eat away at semi green land and build up to a situation where because of pressure on housing you lose front gardens and eat into a back garden to pack more people in.  A former factory can actually host quite a bit of wildlife on their grounds and I've seen developments where this all disappears just because the land used to have a factory on it.

[domjg]

May 17, 2023 11:32:30 GMT graham said:

May 17, 2023 10:24:44 GMT @fecklessmiser said:

I see that Ann Widdecombe - who doesn’t look as though she has ever suffered a shortage of a cheese sandwich or two - has had her “Let them eat cake” moment.

Compassionate Conservatism at its finest. However, best to concentrate on being proud of our country and its history and institutions and not worry about poorer people going hungry.

FM

And such a devout Christian lady too. I wonder whether she will ever begin to practice what she preaches.!

This is the problem with so many tories (or ex tories). We are the mere pawns to be instructed and finger wagged at by our natural governors as they would like to see themselves. 
It's why we see tory MPs and ministers accusing low paid teachers etc who are working so hard they get friction burn of not working hard enough, or wringing their hands that British workers are feckless while they themselves think they perfectly deserve to accept large amounts of lobbying, 'consultancy' cash for doing very little. They don't make the connection between the two as they believe themselves to be a rarefied species apart. 

[domjg]

May 17, 2023 11:45:44 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

May 17, 2023 11:09:37 GMT domjg said:

As someone whose primary loyalty is (no longer) to this country but who nonetheless believes passionately in western values and would defend them any which way, evem I find myself wondering if some at that conference wouldn't like to see people like me forcibly 're-educated' in some way. 

Count yourself lucky, they would have the likes of me wearing red and popping kids out every year!

Well quite. As a father of a daughter who has currently no indication that there is any gender power imbalance in society, I want the society she lives in as an adult to reflect that as much as possible. 

If their kind of sexist rhetoric gets any traction in our society we will have to take her elsewhere. 

[pjw1961]

Reading the NatCon twitter feed is certainly an eye-opener into a weird alternative universe. Here David Starkey handily illustrates the concept of Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism:

"Nations are not born free and equal. Some forms of nationalism are poisonous. So we need to take pride and boast about the absolute uniqueness of the Anglo-American tradition. -David Starkey"

And here is a spectacular demonstration of a lack of self-awareness:

"Too many Scots align themselves with Scottish independence because they inhabit, imaginatively, a false vision of the past. This biased narrative excites unjustified nationalist indignation and resentment against the English and Britain today. -Nigel Biggar"

He doesn't seem to realise that perfectly describes his own British nationalism.

[Mark]

May 16, 2023 23:39:53 GMT eor said:

there hasn't been an election in I think about a century where one of the hopeful nominees is also the former President.

While I largely agree with your post, I will pick up on this point.

Certainly since WWII, there have been few presidents indeed in Trump's position, mostly due to the rule that no US president may seek a third term...and also due to death (Kennedy) and resignation (Nixon).

In fact there have only ever been two post war presidents that went to first term that then lost but could have stood again had they wanted to, namely Carter and Bush I.

(Not sure about Ford, a president that took over from Nixon a year into the latter's second term after impeachment, but, even if Ford could have stood, that would still make only 3).

I, for one do not want to see Trump in the White House, especially with the Ukraine war going on...but, to put the blame on the current state of US politics is a little disengenuous for the reason I have outlined above.

[Deleted]

domjg

“ It's why we see tory MPs and ministers accusing low paid teachers etc who are working so hard they get friction burn of not working hard enough, or wringing their hands that British workers are feckless.”

Nothing wrong with being feckless so long as you are very careful about it.

FM

[Deleted]

Responsible fecklessness is what I stand for.

[eotw]

I was largely unaware of David Starkey until 2011 when he commented on the riots www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/13/david-starkey-claims-whites-black

As I understood him, he was suggesting that rioting was a result of black culture which had introduced it into his Sceptred isle.

I come from Northern Ireland, where there is a strong tradition of rioting (we even have a rioting season) which we are proud of. We didn't need foreigners to teach us how to riot.

This made me come to the conclusion that Starkey was an idiot with a poor knowledge of history.

[johntel]

I had a few pints of Befuddled Badger one time when I was down in Dorset. It definitely made me feckless.

[pjw1961]

May 17, 2023 12:26:54 GMT eotw said:

I was largely unaware of David Starkey until 2011 when he commented on the riots www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/13/david-starkey-claims-whites-black

As I understood him, he was suggesting that rioting was a result of black culture which had introduced it into his Sceptred isle.

I come from Northern Ireland, where there is a strong tradition of rioting (we even have a rioting season) which we are proud of. We didn't need foreigners to teach us how to riot.

This made me come to the conclusion that Starkey was an idiot with a poor knowledge of history.

Actually the British have a fine tradition of rioting (albeit not always in very honourable causes). 

Starkey is of course a distinguished professional historian - specialising in the Tudors - but also a prize t**t in most other respects. 

(Edit - having said that, in some ways he is an odd fit with the NatCons. As he is both an atheist and gay, half the delegates would likely have him burnt at the stake or something).