neilj
Member
Posts: 6,378
|
Post by neilj on May 16, 2023 13:37:43 GMT
Dan Hodges is on this
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 13:39:42 GMT
pjw1961 I wasn't thinking so much about transgender issues but more generally where Labour supporters see the boundaries of "legitimacy" in dealing with far right policies in relation to the NatCon conference. So, for example, if the NatCon position ( and probably soon the Tory Party position) is that the only legitimate family and relationship is a married man and woman becuase of "concerns" about other relationships ( fill in whatever concerns you like) is that something which left of centre poloticians engage with and compromise on? Re self ID, the established organisations representing abused women in Scotland supported the legislation. The connected moral hysteria about transgender people had one and only one intention which was to remove the protections for transgender people in the Equality Act. There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that any degree of compromise would have changed the views of those who oppose self ID which makes absolutely no change to the Equality Act and has been introduced successfully in many other countries. The Scottish case you referred to arose in and was handled within existing legislation and self ID would have made no difference to the outcome. Obviously I don't run the Labour Party but I am confident that the answer to your question in the second paragraph is a definitive NO. I don't see any chance of Labour compromising with fascists. Actually, even Sunak's spokesperson has rejected that notion today. Re the third paragraph, I wasn't calling for compromise with the Christian fanatic right, who are exploiting this as a wedge issue to cause division; they have no interest in reconciliation. Rather for empathy toward ordinary victims of rape and sexual assault by men (not trans women) whose experiences have left them with deep mental and emotional scars - their concerns should not just be dismissed as bigotry, because all that does is push them into the camp of the far right. Given I support the proposed change, it is a question of explain and reassure to a extreme extent far beyond any other legislation, because the effects of rape on the victims are extreme. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 13:41:06 GMT
The National Conservatives are beyond the pale This is the kind of sh* I can remember hearing from the small band of BNP members at university in the nineties. They looked similar too, kind of slimy and dead behind the eyes. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 13:46:43 GMT
"However, in those states or subdivisions in which law and justice have been manifestly corrupted, or in which lawlessness, immorality, and dissolution reign, national government must intervene energetically to restore order." Is he talking about London which keeps persisting in voting Labour? Given the National Conservative Statement of Principles was drafted in America my assumption is that the Republicans are planning to invade and occupy California. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 13:49:02 GMT
The National Conservatives are beyond the pale This is the kind of sh* I can remember hearing from the small band of BNP members at university in the nineties. They looked similar too, kind of slimy and dead behind the eyes. The difference being that BNP gatherings were not attended and addressed by two senior cabinet ministers and a host of other Conservative MPs. All deeply disturbing. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 13:54:23 GMT
This is the kind of sh* I can remember hearing from the small band of BNP members at university in the nineties. They looked similar too, kind of slimy and dead behind the eyes. The difference being that BNP gatherings were not attended and addressed by two senior cabinet ministers and a host of other Conservative MPs. All deeply disturbing. It really is. If you think about it they could almost be saying that Fascism just hadn't been 'done right' a regular refrain if I also recall from student days of on campus Socialist worker types when referring to communism. Now that I think about it these people always give off a kind of reptilian vibe kind of like Ron De Santis. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 14:09:31 GMT
The difference being that BNP gatherings were not attended and addressed by two senior cabinet ministers and a host of other Conservative MPs. All deeply disturbing. It really is. If you think about it they could almost be saying that Fascism just hadn't been 'done right' a regular refrain if I also recall from student days of on campus Socialist worker types when referring to communism. Now that I think about it these people always give off a kind of reptilian vibe kind of like Ron De Santis. De Santis was namechecked by one of the speakers this morning during a conspiracy filled rant: “This new left is not in competition. It is at war with the west, with the moral, intellectual and social foundations on which our entire civilisation rests. Which is why it reserves a singular hatred for the kind of conservatism represented by Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, by Brexit, by Viktor Orbán and, yes, by this conference.” Nice to know Braverman and Gove are in the same category as Orban. Incidentally, to my surprise, apparently the left control international big business (“the leftist control of globalist corporations and entities”) as well as the media: "The great awokening and normalisation of anti-western, anti-Christian, anti-democratic, cultural totalitarianism in western newsrooms, classrooms and bureaucracies, and then of course the Covid lockdown debacle – these are not distinct, discrete phenomenon, but myriad symptoms of one ruling class’s contempt for everyday working families and the institutions that prioritise their rights and interests over elite privilege." So Murdoch, Musk and the like are presumably all secret Marxists. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 14:16:15 GMT
Is he talking about London which keeps persisting in voting Labour? Given the National Conservative Statement of Principles was drafted in America my assumption is that the Republicans are planning to invade and occupy California. "those states or subdivisions in which law and justice have been manifestly corrupted, or in which lawlessness, immorality, and dissolution reign" - Sounds like he could be talking of Orban's Hungary, to an extent Poland under Pis, Erdogan's Turkey, De Dantis's Florida or to a less extent post brexit Britain. In short they are describing the effect they themselves and their like have on government and society. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 14:17:57 GMT
It really is. If you think about it they could almost be saying that Fascism just hadn't been 'done right' a regular refrain if I also recall from student days of on campus Socialist worker types when referring to communism. Now that I think about it these people always give off a kind of reptilian vibe kind of like Ron De Santis. De Santis was namechecked by one of the speakers this morning during a conspiracy filled rant: “This new left is not in competition. It is at war with the west, with the moral, intellectual and social foundations on which our entire civilisation rests. Which is why it reserves a singular hatred for the kind of conservatism represented by Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, by Brexit, by Viktor Orbán and, yes, by this conference.” Nice to know Braverman and Gove are in the same category as Orban. Incidentally, to my surprise, apparently the left control international big business (“the leftist control of globalist corporations and entities”) as well as the media: "The great awokening and normalisation of anti-western, anti-Christian, anti-democratic, cultural totalitarianism in western newsrooms, classrooms and bureaucracies, and then of course the Covid lockdown debacle – these are not distinct, discrete phenomenon, but myriad symptoms of one ruling class’s contempt for everyday working families and the institutions that prioritise their rights and interests over elite privilege." So Murdoch, Musk and the like are presumably all secret Marxists. "This new left is not in competition. It is at war with the west, with the moral, intellectual and social foundations on which our entire civilisation rests" - If he replaced the word 'left' with 'right' then he'd be spot on.. I'd love to ask that speaker what he thinks of Putin 'cos you can bet Putin is appreciative of him spreading this evil in our society. And we're the traitors? |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 14:28:52 GMT
So ROCs. What do you think of tory government ministers sharing a platform and associating with people clearly from the extreme right, using borderline violent rhetoric, whose opinions the BNP would once have been shy of and that if espoused by a political party in Germany would probably get it banned by that country's constitutional court?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 14:29:20 GMT
Been checking this - and the previous iteration for some years - but have just realised that not only is it okay to post any old rubbish but it’s free!
Will be back when I think of something to write.
FM
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 16, 2023 14:39:52 GMT
@fecklessmiser - "Been checking this - and the previous iteration for some years - but have just realised that not only is it okay to post any old rubbish but it’s free! Will be back when I think of something to write." Why wait? Most of the rest of us write without thinking.  |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 16, 2023 14:45:46 GMT
So ROCs. What do you think of tory government ministers sharing a platform and associating with people clearly from the extreme right, using borderline violent rhetoric, whose opinions the BNP would once have been shy of and that if espoused by a political party in Germany would probably get it banned by that country's constitutional court? I am sure they will be as stringent in their criticism as they were about Corbyn and the people he shared platforms with etc. They will , won't they? |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on May 16, 2023 14:47:38 GMT
pjw1961 I wasn't thinking so much about transgender issues but more generally where Labour supporters see the boundaries of "legitimacy" in dealing with far right policies in relation to the NatCon conference. So, for example, if the NatCon position ( and probably soon the Tory Party position) is that the only legitimate family and relationship is a married man and woman becuase of "concerns" about other relationships ( fill in whatever concerns you like) is that something which left of centre poloticians engage with and compromise on? Re self ID, the established organisations representing abused women in Scotland supported the legislation. The connected moral hysteria about transgender people had one and only one intention which was to remove the protections for transgender people in the Equality Act. There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that any degree of compromise would have changed the views of those who oppose self ID which makes absolutely no change to the Equality Act and has been introduced successfully in many other countries. The Scottish case you referred to arose in and was handled within existing legislation and self ID would have made no difference to the outcome. Obviously I don't run the Labour Party but I am confident that the answer to your question in the second paragraph is a definitive NO. I don't see any chance of Labour compromising with fascists. Actually, even Sunak's spokesperson has rejected that notion today. Re the third paragraph, I wasn't calling for compromise with the Christian fanatic right, who are exploiting this as a wedge issue to cause division; they have no interest in reconciliation. Rather for empathy toward ordinary victims of rape and sexual assault by men (not trans women) whose experiences have left them with deep mental and emotional scars - their concerns should not just be dismissed as bigotry, because all that does is push them into the camp of the far right. Given I support the proposed change, it is a question of explain and reassure to an extreme extent far beyond any other legislation, because the effects of rape on the victims are extreme. I agree entirely about victims of rape and abuse which is why I pay attention to the organisations which have most experience of working with them. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,635
|
Post by steve on May 16, 2023 14:53:05 GMT
A horror
@bestforbritain
@jo_Coburn: So what do you say to people who can't afford basic food?
Widdecombe: Eat something else.
@rmcunliffe: There are mothers who can't afford baby formula.
Widdecombe: This is nothing new.
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 14:59:40 GMT
mercian - "I thought the 'British Right' was supposed to have been bought by Russian billionaires/Putin?" It might be a joke to you, but for those of us who actually care about our country and our compatriots, as opposed to merely caring for ourselves, this stuff matters. It's a bit of both. The agendas of Putin and the far right billionaires coincide in various ways, and in the right flank of the modern Tory party, they've found the useful idiots they need. . I resent that. I care very deeply about our country. I was simply amused by your idea that US billionaires have bought the Tory party when we usually hear that it's the Russians. Are they working in cahoots, or is some sort of auction held? "What am I bid for this lovely antique Rees-Mogg..." etc |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,635
|
Post by steve on May 16, 2023 15:07:46 GMT
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,378
|
Post by neilj on May 16, 2023 15:08:58 GMT
Well atleast this made me laugh
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,635
|
Post by steve on May 16, 2023 15:10:10 GMT
mercian The Tories don't give a shit who puts up the dosh, they would award peerages to the Colombian drug cartels if they stumped up enough.
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 15:11:18 GMT
mercian - "I thought the 'British Right' was supposed to have been bought by Russian billionaires/Putin?" It might be a joke to you, but for those of us who actually care about our country and our compatriots, as opposed to merely caring for ourselves, this stuff matters. It's a bit of both. The agendas of Putin and the far right billionaires coincide in various ways, and in the right flank of the modern Tory party, they've found the useful idiots they need. . I resent that. I care very deeply about our country. I was simply amused by your idea that US billionaires have bought the Tory party when we usually hear that it's the Russians. Are they working in cahoots, or is some sort of auction held? "What am I bid for this lovely antique Rees-Mogg..." etc US billionaires who do not believe in a free, liberal America. Yes, of course they're in cahoots. These people would abandon Ukraine if they could which is why it's so important the war is won beyond reasonable doubt before there's a chance the orange monster gets back in. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 15:13:47 GMT
Well atleast this made me laugh That stuff is straight out of Putin's mouth. I wonder what Zelensky would think if he knew members of his buddy Rishi's party were spouting the Kremlin line? |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 15:20:27 GMT
If you go back far enough, residents of countries in the British Empire always had the same voting rights as native residents of the UK when they came to live in this country (France's ex-colonies still do, in that representatives from them sit in the French Parliament). It was only the Commonwealth Immigrants Act of 1962 that placed any restrictions on immigration from Commonwealth countries and that did not include depriving their citizens of their voting rights in this country. I find it strange that you argue that it should have done. The Commonwealth is not the British Empire. So why should a citizen with leave yo remain from a loose association of former dominions and colonies be able to vote in UK General Elections and not citizens of other states who have leave to remain? I agree. None of them should have voting rights. Some Commonwealth countries were never even in the Empire. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 15:28:55 GMT
pjw1961 I wasn't thinking so much about transgender issues but more generally where Labour supporters see the boundaries of "legitimacy" in dealing with far right policies in relation to the NatCon conference. So, for example, if the NatCon position ( and probably soon the Tory Party position) is that the only legitimate family and relationship is a married man and woman becuase of "concerns" about other relationships ( fill in whatever concerns you like) is that something which left of centre poloticians engage with and compromise on? Re self ID, the established organisations representing abused women in Scotland supported the legislation. The connected moral hysteria about transgender people had one and only one intention which was to remove the protections for transgender people in the Equality Act. There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that any degree of compromise would have changed the views of those who oppose self ID which makes absolutely no change to the Equality Act and has been introduced successfully in many other countries. The Scottish case you referred to arose in and was handled within existing legislation and self ID would have made no difference to the outcome. Obviously I don't run the Labour Party but I am confident that the answer to your question in the second paragraph is a definitive NO. I don't see any chance of Labour compromising with fascists. Actually, even Sunak's spokesperson has rejected that notion today. Re the third paragraph, I wasn't calling for compromise with the Christian fanatic right, who are exploiting this as a wedge issue to cause division; they have no interest in reconciliation. Rather for empathy toward ordinary victims of rape and sexual assault by men (not trans women) whose experiences have left them with deep mental and emotional scars - their concerns should not just be dismissed as bigotry, because all that does is push them into the camp of the far right. Given I support the proposed change, it is a question of explain and reassure to a extreme extent far beyond any other legislation, because the effects of rape on the victims are extreme. It's like wading through treacle !
With all respect do you seriously think no-one has thought of this before Starmer came up with his " we must seek a consensus " flash of inspiration !
What do you imagine people like Paris Lees were trying to do back in the early / mid teens with their appearances in the media, and articles in the newspapers ?
Inevitably the sheer torrent of hate and abuse directed at them became too much and they gave up in order to preserve their mental health.
The last trans person to appear on Question Time was India Willoughby in February.
She described the experience as "a lynch mob"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 15:30:26 GMT
Well atleast this made me laugh I assume that Darlington is up North somewhere. I don’t think they mind a bit of paganism there - so long as there is at least some element of Quaker teaching in there as well. FM |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 15:34:54 GMT
mercian The Tories don't give a shit who puts up the dosh, they would award peerages to the Colombian drug cartels if they stumped up enough. I agree that the flagrant sale of honours and peerages is totally wrong. It's not just a Tory problem by the way. An all-hereditary House would be preferable because at least they'd be more likely to take a long-term view and be less susceptible to party pressure. However my preferred solution would be a House elected by some form of PR (not worth debating which form at this stage). HoC always says that this would challenge their supremacy, but the current limitations of HoL power could be built into the bill which set it up. Unfortunately in the real world I can't see it ever changing because party leaders love the ability to reward their cronies. It would probably take a revolution and I don't think enough people care about it to get a decent revolution going. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 16, 2023 15:35:55 GMT
mercian - "I resent that. I care very deeply about our country." Get that. We've spent decades being told by your lot that we don't love our country enough, or in the right way. Nasty, isn't it? But hopefully you'll get the point. The use of patriotism by the right has always been disgusting.
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on May 16, 2023 15:36:40 GMT
At Natcon conf Michael Gove (bizarrely sensibly) says that "Conservatives need to recognise that elections are won on economics and public services rather than culture wars".
I assume then he followed that with, "well there's no point to all this, you may as well all go home".
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 15:43:11 GMT
I resent that. I care very deeply about our country. I was simply amused by your idea that US billionaires have bought the Tory party when we usually hear that it's the Russians. Are they working in cahoots, or is some sort of auction held? "What am I bid for this lovely antique Rees-Mogg..." etc US billionaires who do not believe in a free, liberal America. Yes, of course they're in cahoots. These people would abandon Ukraine if they could which is why it's so important the war is won beyond reasonable doubt before there's a chance the orange monster gets back in. I think you're being "billionairist". They're not all the same, just as no group is all the same. Quite a few support the Democrat Party www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2019/11/18/here-are-the-billionaires-funding-the-democratic-presidential-candidates-as-of-september-2019/Although of course I don't know whether you count Democrats as 'liberal'. Alternatively I suppose you'll say that they are buying the Democrats. Some people just can't win. I think I'll start a Billionaire Defence League 😁 |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 15:44:59 GMT
Obviously I don't run the Labour Party but I am confident that the answer to your question in the second paragraph is a definitive NO. I don't see any chance of Labour compromising with fascists. Actually, even Sunak's spokesperson has rejected that notion today. Re the third paragraph, I wasn't calling for compromise with the Christian fanatic right, who are exploiting this as a wedge issue to cause division; they have no interest in reconciliation. Rather for empathy toward ordinary victims of rape and sexual assault by men (not trans women) whose experiences have left them with deep mental and emotional scars - their concerns should not just be dismissed as bigotry, because all that does is push them into the camp of the far right. Given I support the proposed change, it is a question of explain and reassure to a extreme extent far beyond any other legislation, because the effects of rape on the victims are extreme. It's like wading through treacle !
With all respect do you seriously think no-one has thought of this before Starmer came up with his " we must seek a consensus " flash of inspiration !
What do you imagine people like Paris Lees were trying to do back in the early / mid teens with their appearances in the media, and articles in the newspapers ?
Inevitably the sheer torrent of hate and abuse directed at them became too much and they gave up in order to preserve their mental health.
The last trans person to appear on Question Time was India Willoughby in February.
She described the experience as "a lynch mob"
Not sure what you are not getting about the "I support the changes introduced by the Scottish Government" part of my posts. And for clarity, I would like to see them introduced in the rest of the UK. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 15:48:17 GMT
mercian - "I resent that. I care very deeply about our country." Get that. We've spent decades being told by your lot that we don't love our country enough, or in the right way. Nasty, isn't it? But hopefully you'll get the point. The use of patriotism by the right has always been disgusting. Only by the right? What did you think of Starmer last year? news.sky.com/story/starmer-puts-patriotism-at-heart-of-labour-strategy-in-ambitious-speech-12508566Oh, I forgot. You probably think he's right-wing too. If so, name a lefty who's patriotic so I can think about it. |
|
