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Post by jimjam on May 15, 2023 6:54:28 GMT
''🔵 CON
Austerity + Social Conservatism
🔴 LAB
Austerity + Social Conservatism
🟠 LD
Austerity + Social liberalism
🟢 GRN
Social democracy + social liberalism
🟡 SNP/PC
Social democracy + social liberalism + independence''
Of course it is all about interpretation and the SNP were very close to being led by an extreme social conservative and PC have lost a leader due misogyny at its heart.
While Labour, like the SNP, has contradictory viewpoints on some social issues it might be argued that lumping them in with the Tories is a tad simplistic?
Also, some see the Green philosophy as fundamentally authoritarian and locally will say what they need to move forward.
The austerity piece is a judgement call around politics being the art of the possible; we saw what the financial markets can do last autumn so credibility has to be established first.
LDs, socially liberal agree but, as above, austerity is a matter of outlook.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 15, 2023 7:06:07 GMT
neiljOddly enough UK citizens in work don't actually much fancy training in these technically quite difficult and not particularly pleasant or well paid tasks. Primarily because they are already doing something else. If you could pick three tasks least suitable for the cohort of people currently not working these forms of manual labour with technical skills would be near the top of the list. Braverman and our very own jib wish to keep those with the requisite skills set out of the country or make the terms and conditions of their stay here so onerous that they couldn't be bothered to apply. The weird thing about our economy is how 'alice in wonderland' it is. The policy of the main parties is to solve economic problems through growth. That means more economic activity, and usually means more people working. It is a government target to have more people working. The rationale for granting any immigration at all is to have more people working. And we are granting a record amount of immigration. But if you do that then you have to provide infrastructure for these new arrivals. The obvious failing is simply homes. R4 just quoted a rental figure for the average home in London of £2000-something. I assume they meant per month. If you cut that to £1000-something, then whoever lives there can manage on about £15,000 less salary per year. And in the item about housebuilding, it was being suggested that more council houese should be built and indeed be rented at such levels well below market rent, though that would still not necessarily be below cost. Why is it more of a struggle nowadays to live in a wealthy country? A big answer is the shortage of homes. And that shortage is deliberate conservative policy, and has been since Thatcher. Not that labour really tried to address it during its period in office. Though speaking of necessary infrastructure, things like failure to expedite wind turbines, electricity distribution networks, reservoirs, gas storage, are all big failings. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 15, 2023 7:12:05 GMT
People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. ironically one of the things brexit will not do. Successive governments have been committed to high immigration policies, most of this has always come from outside the EU, and this is wholly unchanged. It has always been in the hands of the Uk government to end this immigration, EU membership has been wholly irrelevant, but no government has ended it because they all fundamentally believe it benefits the UK. And at the same time falling standards of living conditions for most original british citizens arent so much an unfortunate side effect of the policy, as a deliberate objective. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 15, 2023 7:13:40 GMT
I've never stated that I don't like foreigners and you have no evidence to back that up. Not wanting uncontrolled immigration does not deserve your immature insinuations. Please apologise and withdraw your baseless accusation now. So what is your reason for not wanting uncontrolled immigration? |
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Post by moby on May 15, 2023 7:39:19 GMT
If you believe that and follow it's conclusions you will of course be only voting to keep the blue option in power in Westminster, wittingly or not, and of course that is exactly what the yellow option would like to happen. Not good for anyone living much further south of Galashiels or Dumfries..
As to the mindless trope from many in England that the independence movement will do better with an English Tory government, rather than an English Labour one, that is quite mistaken. The independence movement benefits most from it becoming obvious that it makes little difference to Scotland whether a GB Labour or a GB Tory PM occupies Downing St.
The idea that having indy supporting MPs from Scotland, instead of UK union supporting ones, somehow increases the chances of Sunak holding on to power is an odd one. If not a single MP from Scotland represented a Westminster based party, then it would make no difference to the choice of government made by the English electorate - unless that electorate can't decide which it prefers/dislikes most.
I'd be disappointed in our southern neighbours if, as you seem to consider possible, they preferred Sunak's form of Toryism to Starmer's in the governance of England, but if that is their choice then the most that Scots can do is to use their HoC votes to stymie them at every opportunity - including the opportunity to prevent Sunak having "the confidence of the House". That doesn't require them to be SLab MPs, just not SCon ones. If England chooses not to vote Labour, you may bitterly regret enabling the election of 6-7 Tory MPs from Scotland.Hardly a trope:- www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-claim-hold-balance-power-29902836Flynn said: "It's increasingly clear that the SNP can hold the balance of power after the next general election - putting Scotland in prime position to pull the strings of a minority UK government. Voting SNP is the best way to beat the Tories in Scotland - and every vote for the SNP will be crucial to ensure Scotland wields real power and influence. I guarantee you'll see the Tories making hay with this statement to harm Labours chances. Flags, borders and the exclusive interests of your own polity are what nationalists feed off....as Flynn says above. Look at the choice of language....'pull the strings'.....'prime position'.....'wield real power'... That tweet also ignores the fact that Labour has a long honourable tradition of internationalism and driving social change through parliamentary action. That tweet was just crass and simplistic! |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 8:08:26 GMT
Those of us of working age get the weird and delusional rules of the retired English exceptionalists foisted on us now. Nothing 'weirder' and harder to understand than that for me. But of course the marker of your generation is believing you can foist your attitudes and mores on the rest of us. Not for much longer sonny, not for much longer. I present them here to help prevent this forum becoming yet another lefty echo-chamber and to make you folks realise that there are other ways of looking at life, whether you agree with them or not. As you can see from his last sentence he has no incentive to do so. In fairness , as he indicates , it is now just a matter of time before they get a government which thinks like them * You will need to reconcile yourself to whatever is the opposite of your "exceptionalism " ** * Possibly  ** Thesaurus suggests :-inconsequentiality , or commonplace or unexceptionalism.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 8:16:53 GMT
"Iran’s foreign ministry has congratulated Turkey on the elections, saying the high turnout and successful organisation were the sign of a healthy democracy.
“The high voter turn-out in Turkey’s presidential and parliamentary elections on Sunday, and the successful holding of the votes, are a sign of victory for democracy in the neighboring and Muslim country,” foreign ministry spokesperson Nasser Kanaani said on Twitter.
G
Said with the straightest of faces.
If Erdogan "wins" it certainly will be a "Muslim Country". And the last vestiges of "Democracy" will be dismantled by its leader.
Another Theocratic Autocracy .
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Post by shevii on May 15, 2023 8:17:09 GMT
The austerity piece is a judgement call around politics being the art of the possible; we saw what the financial markets can do last autumn so credibility has to be established first. In a former life Starmer rejected austerity as being counter productive for the overall economy. Economic credibility of course needs to be earned but that's doesn't need to mean austerity and as we've seen with Tory tax rises (Corporation Tax for example) the markets were pretty chilled about increases that Sunak proposed and that will still be implemented post Truss. No reason to think the markets would be any less chilled about 5% on the top earners or a mansion tax/wealth tax. They got freaked under Truss because the books didn't balance and were never going to. It may be a "judgment call" and defining austerity is not straightforward, but I don't see how no significant tax rises proposed by Labour can mean anything other than continued austerity. Still waiting for costings and details of any Lab tax proposals, including how much money they expect to make from windfall tax over and above the Tory policies, reducing non dom to 5 years and "closing tax loopholes" but hard to see how this raises anywhere near enough to prevent continued austerity by any standard you might wish to use. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 15, 2023 8:22:41 GMT
Man who voted to make it harder for European union citizens and U.K. nationals to move to and from the mainland of europe to live , work study and retire where they want to says he doesn't object to foreigners!
Except when they want to move to the U.K.to live , work ,study or retire!
Maybe he's just so keen to keep UK nationals here he thought it necessary to steal their rights to freely move anywhere else in Europe to stop them leaving!
So not that keen on UK nationals either it would appear.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 8:23:59 GMT
The austerity piece is a judgement call around politics being the art of the possible; we saw what the financial markets can do last autumn so credibility has to be established first. In a former life Starmer rejected austerity as being counter productive for the overall economy. Economic credibility of course needs to be earned but that's doesn't need to mean austerity and as we've seen with Tory tax rises (Corporation Tax for example) the markets were pretty chilled about increases that Sunak proposed and that will still be implemented post Truss. No reason to think the markets would be any less chilled about 5% on the top earners or a mansion tax/wealth tax. They got freaked under Truss because the books didn't balance and were never going to. It may be a "judgment call" and defining austerity is not straightforward, but I don't see how no significant tax rises proposed by Labour can mean anything other than continued austerity. Still waiting for costings and details of any Lab tax proposals, including how much money they expect to make from windfall tax over and above the Tory policies, reducing non dom to 5 years and "closing tax loopholes" but hard to see how this raises anywhere near enough to prevent continued austerity by any standard you might wish to use. I wouldn't worry too much shevii . Starmer will increase taxes. Once Starmer is in power with an OM * he will ditch all that equivocation. * Times reports today :- "Nearly a quarter of Liberal Democrat local election voters will back Labour at the general election, research by a think tank with close ties to Sir Keir Starmer suggests. Labour Together identified mass tactical voting at the local elections, arguing that it would therefore be “nonsense” for Labour to fear losing votes next year to any party but the Conservatives. Research and YouGov polling commissioned by Labour Together in the wake of the local elections suggests that Liberal Democrat voters will behave very differently in a general election." |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 8:31:24 GMT
"Another majority victory would be a stunning achievement for Labour in this Conservative-leaning country, in which the Tory Party have enjoyed the lion's share of government over the last two centuries.
Of the five Labour prime ministers since 1945 - there have been 12 Conservative PMs in that time - only Clement Attlee and Tony Blair scored knockout victories at the first time of asking."
Sky.com
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2023 8:36:44 GMT
People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today  Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 15, 2023 8:44:38 GMT
DaveI will accept that some people voted for Brexit because of various misguided motivations. If it makes jib happy I will concede that he hasn't anything particularly against foreigners he just voted to make their and U.K. citizens lives worse.
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Post by pete on May 15, 2023 9:01:32 GMT
People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc..That ship left port years ago. To many British companies prefer non training and bringing in those already trained (from where ever). And if people really wanted better lives they should have fought harder against selling off utilities etc to foreigners. Instead they keep voting in a party that likes to sell everything off under the bullshit narrative private good public bad. |
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Post by moby on May 15, 2023 9:11:42 GMT
"Another majority victory would be a stunning achievement for Labour in this Conservative-leaning country, in which the Tory Party have enjoyed the lion's share of government over the last two centuries. Of the five Labour prime ministers since 1945 - there have been 12 Conservative PMs in that time - only Clement Attlee and Tony Blair scored knockout victories at the first time of asking." Sky.com You would have hoped such a brutal but accurate fact would help concentrate the minds of a few people who just don't like Keir Starmer. |
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Post by moby on May 15, 2023 9:28:16 GMT
People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. There were no 'good' reasons to vote for brexit though. The reason you give above... 'that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc..' is really just the reverse of blaming foreigners for their assertion that they weren't doing better as things stood? In other words they were still blaming foreigners for perceived ills, even if they were not saying it so directly? I mean if you say....'I actually like foreigners but still see them as to blame for my situation'....it's a bit of a contradiction because what is there left about them for you to still 'like'...because you've just voted for a policy to have less of them here? |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2023 9:33:20 GMT
Dave If it makes jib happy I will concede that he hasn't anything particularly against foreigners he just voted to make their and U.K. citizens lives worse. Steve - you don't know jib personally I take it. I don't either. Therefore whilst you can say that the upshot of his vote was that he and other Brexit voters have made "their and U.K. citizens' lives worse", you simply cannot say that he or many, let alone the majority "voted" to do just that. Because you just don't know the man or his motives. And that's the point that I was originally trying to make. Overall I find discussion on Brexit too cut and dried and just far too simplistic. The "you got it wrong. I got it right" stuff. I have no doubt that had remain won, these pages would be full of Brexiters pointing out that remainers had got it wrong. If you want Britain to rejoin the EU one day, remainers/ rejoiners will need to try to stop characterising Brexit voters as all being stupid or having only malign reasons for their vote. To not do so, will add years to that particular cause. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 15, 2023 9:35:29 GMT
People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. I think there are people who tell themselves that their objection to immigration or communities from other countries is purely rational, practical, economic but dig a little deeper and I think there's almost always a nativist, emotional, tribal sentiment at the root of it, that they may not even readily admit to themselves. Years ago I was in a relationship with a woman who made arguments against immigration like these and one day when in a shopping centre surrounded by Eastern European voices (in the very liberal, diverse city of Oxford) she admitted that hearing non-English speaking voices around her made her feel uncomfortable and anxious. As someone who actively revels in hearing different languages and accents around me it was sudden proof of a major incompatibility and the relationship didn't last much longer after that. |
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Post by mercian on May 15, 2023 9:44:35 GMT
voters were never given the chance to agree to any of the various treaties since 1974 or whenever it was. As soon as they got the chance they rejected them After the first big majority referendum to stay in the EU, there was no point holding another because there was no indication the nation wanted to leave. The recent vote to leave was a rather slim win by leave, and as you know polling says the nation now believes it was a mistake. We might analyses again how the nation was tricked into voting to leave. But clearly there has been no change of heart by government to involve voters, otherwise we would have held a vote whether we wanted the recent Australian trade deal which seemes to be agreed as bad for Britain, or the others the governnment has negotiated. And indeed be holding another vote on rejoing the EU instead of these. Firstly of course we didn't vote to stay in the EU in the 70s because it didn't exist. It was the EEC then. Secondly, though support has varied, there have been may times when the public was against the EU. theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250Here are a couple of quotes in case you can't be bothered to read the article: "By March 1979 the voters were clearly regretting their 1975 decision, with 60% saying they would vote to leave in a referendum and only 32% to stay. A year later, with Margaret Thatcher now prime minister, the gap was even wider: 65% to 26%." "In the ten years that Tony Blair was prime minister, British attitudes to the EU fluctuated between reasonably comfortable majorities for staying in and narrow leads for the “get out” camp." |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 15, 2023 9:47:14 GMT
Dave If it makes jib happy I will concede that he hasn't anything particularly against foreigners he just voted to make their and U.K. citizens lives worse. Steve - you don't know jib personally I take it. I don't either. Therefore whilst you can say that the upshot of his vote was that he and other Brexit voters have made "their and U.K. citizens' lives worse", you simply cannot say that he or many, let alone the majority "voted" to do just that. Because you just don't know the man or his motives. And that's the point that I was originally trying to make. Overall I find discussion on Brexit too cut and dried and just far too simplistic. The "you got it wrong. I got it right" stuff. I have no doubt that had remain won, these pages would be full of Brexiters pointing out that remainers had got it wrong. If you want Britain to rejoin the EU one day, remainers/ rejoiners will need to try to stop characterising Brexit voters as all being stupid or having only malign reasons for their vote. To not do so, will add years to that particular cause. You should work for the BBC. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2023 9:48:53 GMT
There were no 'good' reasons to vote for brexit though. The reason you give above... 'that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc..' is really just the reverse of blaming foreigners for their assertion that they weren't doing better as things stood? In other words they were still blaming foreigners for perceived ills, even if they were not saying it so directly? I mean if you say....'I actually like foreigners but still see them as to blame for my situation'....it's a bit of a contradiction because what is there left about them for you to still 'like'...because you've just voted for a policy to have less of them here? Sorry Moby, I normally agree with you, but not this time. To agree with what you have written, would mean that I would have to know or feel that none of the 17 million 'out' voters had good or 'good' reasons to vote out and that all of them disliked foreigners. That's inconceivable and to be honest, a very disdainful dismissal of the hopes and dreams of millions of people. These islands of ours are now giving people less opportunities, less of a share of the pie than they once had, less to live on, less of what they need to just get by etc, etc, etc, as wealth is ever more concentrated in the hands of the already supremely wealthy. I'm sure that you and I would agree on that if we were discussing for example, another aspect of politics other than Brexit. Can people really not see that for many a vote for Brexit, was an attempt, however desperate (but I'm not going to knock desperate people) to turn that tide and change a status quo that wasn't working? It was for many an attempt to redress the balance by trying to change things, albeit by means of a flawed and overl-simplistic vote. None of what I'm saying is a defence of Brexit. None of what I'm saying is denying that there were many who voted for Brexit who were racists/ disliked foreigners. And I'm not saying that when many Brexit voters voted for it, with good intentions and 'good'/ good reasons they got it right. I just find it hard to fathom how so many people's votes can be dismissed /pigeon-holed/ stereo-typed by people who will never ever meet them. It has always felt pantomime-esque to me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 9:51:52 GMT
Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. I think there are people who tell themselves that their objection to immigration or communities from other countries is purely rational, practical, economic but dig a little deeper and I think there's almost always a nativist, emotional, tribal sentiment at the root of it, that they may not even readily admit to themselves. Years ago I was in a relationship with a woman who made arguments against immigration like these and one day when in a shopping centre surrounded by Eastern European voices (in the very liberal, diverse city of Oxford) she admitted that hearing non-English speaking voices around her made her feel uncomfortable and anxious. As someone who actively revels in hearing different languages and accents around me it was sudden proof of a major incompatibility and the relationship didn't last much longer after that. What a ridiculous generalisation based on a single anecdote of your own failure of judgement. You really are a pompous vacuous twit. |
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Post by mercian on May 15, 2023 9:52:28 GMT
"Another majority victory would be a stunning achievement for Labour in this Conservative-leaning country, in which the Tory Party have enjoyed the lion's share of government over the last two centuries. Of the five Labour prime ministers since 1945 - there have been 12 Conservative PMs in that time - only Clement Attlee and Tony Blair scored knockout victories at the first time of asking." Sky.com And of course only those two plus Wilson ever won an election at all. |
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Post by jimjam on May 15, 2023 9:52:36 GMT
Shevii,
I think the current account under Labour would be constrained but there would be much greater borrowing to invest.
Green New Deal being perhaps the largest single commitment, maybe something about housing through LAs and some Sure Start investments.
Not usual for me to give an opinion; however, I would prefer a greater stimulus but can live with the likely platform.
I recall the first 2 years after 1997 when credibility was established before subtle redistribution geared up.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 15, 2023 10:01:40 GMT
I think there are people who tell themselves that their objection to immigration or communities from other countries is purely rational, practical, economic but dig a little deeper and I think there's almost always a nativist, emotional, tribal sentiment at the root of it, that they may not even readily admit to themselves. Years ago I was in a relationship with a woman who made arguments against immigration like these and one day when in a shopping centre surrounded by Eastern European voices (in the very liberal, diverse city of Oxford) she admitted that hearing non-English speaking voices around her made her feel uncomfortable and anxious. As someone who actively revels in hearing different languages and accents around me it was sudden proof of a major incompatibility and the relationship didn't last much longer after that. What a ridiculous generalisation based on a single anecdote of your own failure of judgement. You really are a pompous vacuous twit. It's an example Colin, the evidence for what I said goes a lot further than that you pompous, unpleasant, rude, snide, mean, google dependent old git! Who the f do you think you are? |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 10:03:34 GMT
Shevii, I think the current account under Labour would be constrained but there would be much greater borr0wing to invest. Green New Deal being perhaps the largest single commitment, maybe something about housing through LAs and some Sure Start investments. Not usual for me to give an opinion; however, I would prefer a greater stimulus but can live with the likely platform. I recall the first 2 years after 1997 when credibility was established before subtle redistribution geared up. We have reached an all too predictable destination. After years of QE / ultra low interest rates , post credit crisis , post pandemic, post energy crisis, post war borrowing leaves a huge debt overhang just when interest rates return to normal ..........and UK desperately needs infrastructure investment. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2023 10:11:42 GMT
Well, I didn't think I'd be on here speaking up for jib today Steve - do you accept that there are people that voted for Brexit, not to keep foreigners out of the country because they disliked them, but for a myriad reasons? Principally I think, because of the effect, (real or perceived, or a bit of both) that immigration was having on people already here. If so, then you are accepting, rightly in my opinion that the motivation of a good chunk of Brexiters wasn't a dislike of foreigners but the desire to see themselves, their families, their friends, and people in general do better, in terms of employment, opportunities, access to services, housing, etc, etc, etc.. To be clear there were undoubtedly Brexit voters who voted 'out' because they disliked foreigners and wanted to keep them out of the UK. But all 17 million of them? Whether you or I agree with their reasons is neither here or there, but there were many, many, many Brexit voters who had their own 'good' reasons for voting 'out'. Basically, if you are assuming that "people like jib" don't like foreigners then you are making a huge and unfair assumption about his motives and the motives of over half the people who voted that day. I think there are people who tell themselves that their objection to immigration or communities from other countries is purely rational, practical, economic but dig a little deeper and I think there's almost always a nativist, emotional, tribal sentiment at the root of it, that they may not even readily admit to themselves. Years ago I was in a relationship with a woman who made arguments against immigration like these and one day when in a shopping centre surrounded by Eastern European voices (in the very liberal, diverse city of Oxford) she admitted that hearing non-English speaking voices around her made her feel uncomfortable and anxious. I'm a bit uncomfortable as I'm arguing with posters that I admire such as yourself, but here goes. I've highlighted two words of yours above. For it to be "almost always" nativist, tribal sentiment etc, tell me if I'm wrong but surely that implies that you are saying that the the vast majority voted for Brexit because they were those things. As 'evidence' you provide an anecdote relating to one individual. One. It's like you're making her a totem and the identity-kit of 17 million voters. In doing so, I feel like you've kind of making my point for me in what I've said in previous posts. The reason why all this matters to me is that my main reason for always being 'of the left' has been that I've always felt that it was solutions from my side of the fence that could make a real difference to people's lives. I've never felt that the right wanted to make a difference for those who needed help. I've always felt, and still do that many on my 'side' want to provide solutions because we basically have an inbuilt sense of social justice and so want to help the kind of people who need a difference to be made to their lives. Well, many of those people were amongst the 17 million and tried to make a difference of their own accord. Was it going to work? Even with better politicians than we had in charge, almost certainly not, but that doesn't mean that a great many Brexit voters didn't vote in good faith for what they considers to be good reasons. Many of those people tried to make a positive difference to their lives - I'm not going to knock them for that, particularly as I don't know every last one of them. And nor does anyone else, although it often appears people don't realise that. One charge which the right level against us is that we look down on people. This whole thing of considering all Brexit voters thick/ wrong/ anti-foreigner, with not one good reason between the 17 million of them to vote for Brexit just perpetuates that and helps the Mails, Telegraphs and ultimately the Tory Party. It would be nice if that stopped and instead of stigmatising a huge percentage of the population, people tried to listen and understand instead. If only out of self-interest that makes sense, because if people really want Brexit over-turned it will be over-turned quicker if that were to happen. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 10:11:43 GMT
What a ridiculous generalisation based on a single anecdote of your own failure of judgement. You really are a pompous vacuous twit. It's an example Colin, the evidence for what I said goes a lot further than that you pompous, unpleasant, rude, snide, mean, google dependent old git! Who the f do you think you are? Too kind ❤ Who do I think I am ?. Just an unexceptional old critic of the self important twaddle you peddle here.😀 |
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2023 10:14:27 GMT
Steve - you don't know jib personally I take it. I don't either. Therefore whilst you can say that the upshot of his vote was that he and other Brexit voters have made "their and U.K. citizens' lives worse", you simply cannot say that he or many, let alone the majority "voted" to do just that. Because you just don't know the man or his motives. And that's the point that I was originally trying to make. Overall I find discussion on Brexit too cut and dried and just far too simplistic. The "you got it wrong. I got it right" stuff. I have no doubt that had remain won, these pages would be full of Brexiters pointing out that remainers had got it wrong. If you want Britain to rejoin the EU one day, remainers/ rejoiners will need to try to stop characterising Brexit voters as all being stupid or having only malign reasons for their vote. To not do so, will add years to that particular cause. You should work for the BBC. Eh? You've lost me there. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 15, 2023 10:21:25 GMT
It's an example Colin, the evidence for what I said goes a lot further than that you pompous, unpleasant, rude, snide, mean, google dependent old git! Who the f do you think you are? Too kind ❤ Who do I think I am ?. Just an unexceptional old critic of the self important twaddle you peddle here.😀 I am never specifically rude to another poster without previously being provoked. You are rude and unpleasant to others often, without due cause and it's says a great deal about your character. Don't talk to me like that again. If you do I will respond in kind and then some. Being critical is one thing, being so rude to someone who has not addressed you specifically just because you don't like what they say is very much another. I may have many flaws but vacuity and taking myself too seriously are sure as hell not some of them Mr Pooter. |
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