Danny
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Post by Danny on May 14, 2023 9:20:52 GMT
Congratulations to Swedish performer Loreen on winning Eurovision , she becomes the second performer ever to win twice and it means the show will return to Sweden on the 50th anniversary of Abba's win. It was curious how the popular vote was completely different to the official judges vote. A remarkable coincidence that Sweden won on the 50th anniversary of that abba win. As remarkable a coincidence as Ukraine winning last year. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 14, 2023 9:48:32 GMT
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Post by reggieside on May 14, 2023 9:55:30 GMT
Congratulations to Swedish performer Loreen on winning Eurovision , she becomes the second performer ever to win twice and it means the show will return to Sweden on the 50th anniversary of Abba's win. It was curious how the popular vote was completely different to the official judges vote. A remarkable coincidence that Sweden won on the 50th anniversary of that abba win. As remarkable a coincidence as Ukraine winning last year. its almost as if something other than the quality of the song influenced people's attitude to Ukraines entry last year. Cant quite put my finger on what though .... |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 14, 2023 10:03:12 GMT
It was curious how the popular vote was completely different to the official judges vote. A remarkable coincidence that Sweden won on the 50th anniversary of that abba win. As remarkable a coincidence as Ukraine winning last year. its almost as if something other than the quality of the song influenced people's attitude to Ukraines entry last year. Cant quite put my finger on what though .... 😀 |
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Post by leftieliberal on May 14, 2023 12:50:39 GMT
... But now a second constitutional issue has raised its head. The Government has shown that it is willing to go directly against the will of parliament and use ministerial powers instead. For a long time there’s been a tendency to legislate using these powers instead of the full parliamentary process. It’s what we saw during Brexit and then, most alarmingly, under Covid. But now we have entered a dangerous new terrain. They’re not just being used to sideline parliament. They’re being used to disobey it. (MY EMPHASIS) I understand that a lot of EU legislation went through using Statutory instruments, so that's where the rot started. It's entirely our own government's fault of course, but the fact that they couldn't be trusted to debate EU legislation was one of the big factors in me wanting to Leave (and still do by the way). Statutory Instruments long precede our membership of the EU. I'm surprised you didn't blame the Attlee Government who introduced them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_instrument_(UK) Even they were preceded by Statutory Rules and Orders which date back to the 1893 Act. So Parliament allowing the Executive to get away with making laws without proper oversight has a long history and I do remember that when we were in the EU there was a Lords Committee specifically devoted to inspection of all EU legislation. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 14, 2023 16:12:10 GMT
Grant Shapps Bizarrely claiming that record non European union migration is a Brexit bonus. Stating that British control of its own borders meant the UK could set visa conditions as it felt for for countries such as Syria ,Ukraine and Hong Kong. Shapps has apparently forgotten that in the four decades + of eec and European union membership the U.K. had full control of immigration from all these places already. The only result of Brexit was to steal U.K. citizens freedom of movement rights within the European union and restrict European union citizens rights to 27 rather than 28 countries. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/14/grant-shapps-says-brexit-lets-uk-control-immigration-as-figures-expected-to-rise |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 14, 2023 17:59:59 GMT
Village idiot of the week goes as so often to Jacob Rees Mogg. Apparently the reason why war criminal Putin has failed to successfully invade Ukraine isn't the bravery and determination of its own population or the massive international support primarily from the U.S. and the European union no its.....Brexit Apparently without the " sovereignty " recovered from Brexit all those European union countries would have simply caved in .It was only the gallant leadership not of Volodymr Zelensky but of Spaffer Johnson that saved the day! What alternative reality do these people live in. youtu.be/IDMHf4VNQKc |
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Post by jib on May 14, 2023 19:09:33 GMT
Grant Shapps Bizarrely claiming that record non European union migration is a Brexit bonus. Stating that British control of its own borders meant the UK could set visa conditions as it felt for for countries such as Syria ,Ukraine and Hong Kong. Shapps has apparently forgotten that in the four decades + of eec and European union membership the U.K. had full control of immigration from all these places already. The only result of Brexit was to steal U.K. citizens freedom of movement rights within the European union and restrict European union citizens rights to 27 rather than 28 countries. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/14/grant-shapps-says-brexit-lets-uk-control-immigration-as-figures-expected-to-riseWhat's your point? That we should turn our backs on those fleeing Chinese and Russian totalitarianism in Hong Kong and Ukraine? Or are you trying to say that unlimited migration from the EU was a good thing? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 14, 2023 19:12:33 GMT
Village idiot of the week goes as so often to Jacob Rees Mogg. Apparently the reason why war criminal Putin has failed to successfully invade Ukraine isn't the bravery and determination of its own population or the massive international support primarily from the U.S. and the European union no its.....Brexit Apparently without the " sovereignty " recovered from Brexit all those European union countries would have simply caved in .It was only the gallant leadership not of Volodymr Zelensky but of Spaffer Johnson that saved the day! What alternative reality do these people live in. youtu.be/IDMHf4VNQKcThe UK had a somewhat limited reserve of military equipment and ammunition which it has been able to supply to Ukraine. i wonder how the position now compares to the position when labour left office. Did con increase, decrease or not change those reserves of equipment? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 14, 2023 19:23:09 GMT
Grant Shapps Bizarrely claiming that record non European union migration is a Brexit bonus. Stating that British control of its own borders meant the UK could set visa conditions as it felt for for countries such as Syria ,Ukraine and Hong Kong. Shapps has apparently forgotten that in the four decades + of eec and European union membership the U.K. had full control of immigration from all these places already. The only result of Brexit was to steal U.K. citizens freedom of movement rights within the European union and restrict European union citizens rights to 27 rather than 28 countries. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/14/grant-shapps-says-brexit-lets-uk-control-immigration-as-figures-expected-to-riseWhat's your point? That we should turn our backs on those fleeing Chinese and Russian totalitarianism in Hong Kong and Ukraine? Or are you trying to say that unlimited migration from the EU was a good thing? Unlimited migration from the EU was indeed a good thing. And the best thing about it was that precisely because it was unlimited with no conditions attached, people could come and go freely. Whereas if they migrate here from ROW and have to qualify for various immigration conditions, it becomes more of a commitment. If they do return home, they may never be allowed back. People from the rest of the world are more likely to stay in the UK forever, which presumably is what you are trying to avoid. Whereas EU people are more likely to have come, stayed a bit filling strategic vacancies in the Uk economy, then gone back home. Indeed to have retired back home even if they spent a long time here, so that the costs of their old age end up back with their home nations.
The EU as a whole is quite similar to the Uk in terms of wealth. Again this is a reason why people are more likely to go back home. It is also a decent size as a pool for labour, not too small but also not too big, so actually vast emigration to the Uk was always unlikely and remains so. Whereas other parts of the world have real desire to get a permanent place in the UK.
So what has happened is EU migrants who would have departed again have been replaced with in fact significantly more numerous immigrants from the rest of the world who are more likely to stay permanently. The absolute opposite of what was claimed.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 14, 2023 20:54:53 GMT
Looks like the Turkish elections are heading for a run off, with no candidate getting more than 50%
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Post by alec on May 14, 2023 21:03:18 GMT
Danny - "Unlimited migration from the EU was indeed a good thing. And the best thing about it was that precisely because it was unlimited with no conditions attached, people could come and go freely." I know you are lazy and extremely sloppy when it comes to facts about covid, but this lack of rigour is now showing through in posts on other subjects. No, it is completely untrue that EU rules permit migration with no limits and no conditions attached. That's just a myth. For 90 days, movement is unlimited, as it would be for a British citizen to visit, say, Brazil. EU citizens are also allowed to freely seek employment in any other member state. But beyond 90 days you may be asked to show that you are employed (or self employed), a student with health insurance or a if a non-worker and not a student, have the ability to support yourself. There is a right of free movement, a right to work, but not an unfettered right of residency - that is a very important difference. I appreciate you don't do research nor even read details and links that other people give you, but for the sake of completeness, here is a link explaining your mistake - www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-personsSee under "Rights and Obligations" "For stays of over three months: EU citizens and their family members – if not working – must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. EU citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of EU citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period."
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 14, 2023 21:03:42 GMT
Who am I to disagree with a tweeter oft quoted on this site? (except for their not mentioning that SGP are also for independence)
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 14, 2023 21:05:07 GMT
Looks like the Turkish elections are heading for a run off, with no candidate getting more than 50% I wonder where the votes of the 5% for this nationalist guy, Ogan, will go? Mainly Erdogan I'd have assumed but with my miniscule knowledge of Turkish politics I do know that his vote though 'nationalist' is more religious in nature whereas the Kemalists of whom I believe the main opposition contender is one can be pretty big on secular Turkish nationalism. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 14, 2023 21:13:54 GMT
Who am I to disagree with a tweeter oft quoted on this site? (except for their not mentioning that SGP are also for independence) If you believe that and follow it's conclusions you will of course be only voting to keep the blue option in power in Westminster, wittingly or not, and of course that is exactly what the yellow option would like to happen. Not good for anyone living much further south of Galashiels or Dumfries.. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 14, 2023 21:24:22 GMT
Looks like the Turkish elections are heading for a run off, with no candidate getting more than 50% I wonder where the votes of the 5% for this nationalist guy, Ogan, will go? Mainly Erdogan I'd have assumed but with my miniscule knowledge of Turkish politics I do know that his vote though 'nationalist' is more religious in nature whereas the Kemalists of whom I believe the main opposition contender is one can be pretty big on secular Turkish nationalism. Unfortunately Erdogan is so close to 50% on the first round it is hard to believe that he won't win comfortably on the second. |
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Post by mercian on May 14, 2023 21:42:16 GMT
Mercian: "Similarly but not quite so much, because at least it's not foreigners foisting their weird rules on us."Could you provide an example of a "weird rule" which the UK government voted against but which we nevertheless had to accept because of the votes of foreigners? Badenoch says 1,000 EU regulations have now been deleted so if you're correct in your assertion, you should have no trouble finding some which meet your dual criteria of weirdness and imposition against UK government votes. (Of course, the reality is that in any co-operative venture, in order to work for members' mutual benefit, there has to be a realistic level of give and take, or the thing can't work at all). I think the point is that the UK government didn't vote against these rules, they just pushed them through by statutory instrument. You're right about co-operative ventures, but voters were never given the chance to agree to any of the various treaties since 1974 or whenever it was. As soon as they got the chance they rejected them - which was why they were never given the vote until UKIP forced Cameron's hand of course. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 14, 2023 21:44:18 GMT
Since we have the NatCon conference coming soon and being attended by a number of Conservative ministers, here is the statement of principles of their US branch. It is authoritarian, militaristic, intolerant and ultra-nationalist. To be clear, this should terrify old school Conservatives as much as those on the left. Mrs Thatcher would not have approved of their protectionist and anti-business views. Which raises the important questions - what the hell are the likes of Gove and Braverman doing attending this gathering and why isn't Sunak stopping them? Just what is the Conservative Party becoming? www.theamericanconservative.com/national-conservatism-a-statement-of-principles/ |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 14, 2023 21:45:12 GMT
Who am I to disagree with a tweeter oft quoted on this site? (except for their not mentioning that SGP are also for independence) Yawn. |
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Post by mercian on May 14, 2023 21:47:30 GMT
Similarly but not quite so much, because at least it's not foreigners foisting their weird rules on us. If the House of Commons kept normal working hours and had only 4 weeks holiday like everyone else they'd be able to debate a lot more stuff. All that crap about them having to be in their constituencies some of the time to see their constituents - most of that stuff is done by minions at the taxpayers expense. There might be a few good constituency MPs but not many. Those of us of working age get the weird and delusional rules of the retired English exceptionalists foisted on us now. Nothing 'weirder' and harder to understand than that for me. But of course the marker of your generation is believing you can foist your attitudes and mores on the rest of us. Not for much longer sonny, not for much longer. I don't want to foist my attitudes on anyone. I present them here to help prevent this forum becoming yet another lefty echo-chamber and to make you folks realise that there are other ways of looking at life, whether you agree with them or not. P.S. by calling me 'sonny' I presume you're implying that you're older than me. I'm so sorry that you're still working. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 14, 2023 22:07:14 GMT
Who am I to disagree with a tweeter oft quoted on this site? (except for their not mentioning that SGP are also for independence) If you believe that and follow it's conclusions you will of course be only voting to keep the blue option in power in Westminster, wittingly or not, and of course that is exactly what the yellow option would like to happen. Not good for anyone living much further south of Galashiels or Dumfries..
As to the mindless trope from many in England that the independence movement will do better with an English Tory government, rather than an English Labour one, that is quite mistaken. The independence movement benefits most from it becoming obvious that it makes little difference to Scotland whether a GB Labour or a GB Tory PM occupies Downing St.
The idea that having indy supporting MPs from Scotland, instead of UK union supporting ones, somehow increases the chances of Sunak holding on to power is an odd one. If not a single MP from Scotland represented a Westminster based party, then it would make no difference to the choice of government made by the English electorate - unless that electorate can't decide which it prefers/dislikes most.
I'd be disappointed in our southern neighbours if, as you seem to consider possible, they preferred Sunak's form of Toryism to Starmer's in the governance of England, but if that is their choice then the most that Scots can do is to use their HoC votes to stymie them at every opportunity - including the opportunity to prevent Sunak having "the confidence of the House". That doesn't require them to be SLab MPs, just not SCon ones. If England chooses not to vote Labour, you may bitterly regret enabling the election of 6-7 Tory MPs from Scotland. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 14, 2023 22:07:39 GMT
alecI think you are being harsh on Danny there it's common practice to label free movement within the European union as immigration when in reality it isn't migration in the normal form at all. We as UK citizens benefited from freedom of movement, yes there were limitations but they weren't remotely the same as under the stupidity of brexit. For example if you wished to move to Spain as a European union citizen and didn't intend to work you would have to meet the minimum income criteria Spain considered necessary for a basic life, it's around £9000 a year , as a European union if you registered for nie you would be entitled to access to the Spanish health services. There's no fixed time criteria after the first 90 days. As a third party national the required income is significantly more around £23000 a year and unless over state retirement age where a reciprocal arrangement exists you can't access the Spanish health services for years and a visa is required for any stay over 90 days. Similarly movement for work is massively more difficult. People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. His point about people fleeing persecution is the usual total bollocks as it has nothing to do with migration and everything to do with people in need , people that the administration his stupidity in voting for Brexit enabled want to renege on.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 14, 2023 22:09:57 GMT
Who am I to disagree with a tweeter oft quoted on this site? (except for their not mentioning that SGP are also for independence) Yawn. Time for you to climb the wooden hill to beddy-byes. |
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Post by jib on May 14, 2023 22:18:49 GMT
alec People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. His point about people fleeing persecution is the usual total bollocks as it has nothing to do with migration and everything to do with people in need , people that the administration his stupidity in voting for Brexit enabled want to renege on. I've never stated that I don't like foreigners and you have no evidence to back that up. Not wanting uncontrolled immigration does not deserve your immature insinuations. Please apologise and withdraw your baseless accusation now. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 14, 2023 23:44:54 GMT
alec People like jib consider losing these rights for UK citizens a price he's happy for others to pay provided it keeps foreigners he doesn't like out of the U.K. His point about people fleeing persecution is the usual total bollocks as it has nothing to do with migration and everything to do with people in need , people that the administration his stupidity in voting for Brexit enabled want to renege on. I've never stated that I don't like foreigners and you have no evidence to back that up. Not wanting uncontrolled immigration does not deserve your immature insinuations. Please apologise and withdraw your baseless accusation now.
People wanting to migrate from one place to another is perfectly normal, as is resentment about "incomers" among those already living there. With the pressure on housing and other facilities in already overcrowded areas, it would be as reasonable for a local council to be able to put controls on immigrants from other parts of a state, as for states to control the numbers coming from other states.
All you are advocating is that controls should exist at a particular level of government, but not at other levels. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 15, 2023 4:55:04 GMT
jibYou have often stated that one of your main reasons for voting to leave the European union was to end " uncontrolled immigration " the reality is of course that free movement isn't migration at all so your vote couldn't have produced your desired objectives. However central to a desire to remove " uncontrolled immigration " must be a desire to keep some of those previously able to benefit from it out, maybe you don't dislike foreigners but you clearly don't want as many of them to have the right to live here. Similarly you don't want any of your fellow citizens to have the right to freely choose where they want to live as you voted to remove that right. If that wasn't your intent you shouldn't have voted for brexit.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 15, 2023 5:43:46 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on May 15, 2023 6:02:54 GMT
neiljOddly enough UK citizens in work don't actually much fancy training in these technically quite difficult and not particularly pleasant or well paid tasks. Primarily because they are already doing something else. If you could pick three tasks least suitable for the cohort of people currently not working these forms of manual labour with technical skills would be near the top of the list. Braverman and our very own jib wish to keep those with the requisite skills set out of the country or make the terms and conditions of their stay here so onerous that they couldn't be bothered to apply.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 15, 2023 6:24:02 GMT
voters were never given the chance to agree to any of the various treaties since 1974 or whenever it was. As soon as they got the chance they rejected them After the first big majority referendum to stay in the EU, there was no point holding another because there was no indication the nation wanted to leave. The recent vote to leave was a rather slim win by leave, and as you know polling says the nation now believes it was a mistake. We might analyses again how the nation was tricked into voting to leave. But clearly there has been no change of heart by government to involve voters, otherwise we would have held a vote whether we wanted the recent Australian trade deal which seemes to be agreed as bad for Britain, or the others the governnment has negotiated. And indeed be holding another vote on rejoing the EU instead of these. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 15, 2023 6:53:19 GMT
We can all agree that Starmer's Labour will be less corrupt than the current lot, who have rejected the "One Nation" Toryism that Starmer is pledged to follow. Stated aims being very similar doesnt help us voters very much. The interesting question is the extent to which politicians deliberately lie. On here people seem to be hoping Starmer has lied and will in reality be more leftish than he says.
It is unquestionable that the period of the last labour government was more successful for the Uk than the recent period of conservative government. And indeed that the preceding con government had an economic reputation largely supported by the chance arrival of north sea oil and a mass giveaway of state assets.
Was Heath the last 'one nation' tory?
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