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Post by shevii on Jul 11, 2023 16:33:20 GMT
I'm always hesitant to get involved in debates about migration. Fundamentally I'm strongly in favour of a drastic reduction in the global population (because it makes tackling the climate crisis so much easier). I'm also strongly in favour of shrinking the UK population - our island is too urbanised, too densely populated and its biodiversity is appallingly depleted already. As others have said, the never-ending growth paradigm is broken, so we shouldn't be importing healthy young people to boost the economy, nor to look after our ageing population. On the other hand, assuming that the UK remains relatively habitable as the climate catastrophe unfolds, we should expect to take in climate refugees, even if that means controls on the reproduction of people who're already here. I can't claim to be confident that we'll succeed in getting the global population down to a sensible level in a managed way or to particularly like any of the methods I can think of for doing so, but that doesn't alter my conviction that this is what we need to do. I'm not going to join my voice with the xenophobic anti-immigrant brigade, but perhaps a first step towards stabilising and then shrinking the UK population would be to curtail immigration drastically. As a concomitant we should do much more to tackle refugee problems at source and to help the world's centres of population growth improve living standards without further population growth (to reduce an important driver of economic migration). It's a long time since I looked at any figures, but it certainly used to be the case that women have fewer children when they have access to reliable contraception, when infant mortality falls and when economic prosperity reduces the contribution of child labour to the household economy. I would also like us to take as many refugees as possible directly from their country of origin, because if we only or mostly take those who are able to make their way to these shores we discriminate against women, young children, older people and anyone who is frail or disabled - in other words those who are most vulnerable. If we took enough refugees directly from their region of origin I could probably live with a draconian approach to unauthorised arrivals. Pretty much how I feel about this. I want liberal solutions but I also think we are already overpopulated, certainly overpopulated to deal with the predicted climate change crisis as we eat into green land. I worry, as colin has suggested, that liberal solutions will not be possible if we reach the talked about figures (by reputable institutions like the UN in modelling a failure to deal with global warming) of perhaps one billion displaced people. Those figures will be impossible for the West/Northern countries to handle and they will simply close their borders and already are doing so to some extent, whether this is currently more to do with racist attitudes than it is out of absolute necessity. Eventually though if liberal governments don't do it than an elected far right will. I think a multitude of responses is needed- the most important being dealing with the climate crisis, although already too late for many I think and it seems increasingly unlikely that the right choices and right level of commitment to deal with this will be made. Improving healthcare, education and women's control/power in third world countries will help with population control and, even if it doesn't deal with the displacement numbers from global warming, it can reduce the severity. Improving farming and climate solutions would also help but again projects like the Great Green Wall in Africa are running behind schedule. All very depressing. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 11, 2023 16:39:28 GMT
IMO interest rate rises are fuelling the 'wage-price' spiral but it shouldn't be long before real wages turn +ve (for those that understand base effects)
Record wage growth fuels fresh inflation fearswww.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66156713Anyway, instead of a 'Groundhog Day' then one idea would be to not allow BoE such freedom on interest rates but put the 'inflation' target more in control of HMG (ie HMG can control the prices of mortgages and the 'pass-thru' effect on rents) In extremis then 'overnight' interest rates are permanently locked at say 3%, with the rest of the yield curve influenced by 'market forces' and HMT policies. In 'bad times' with low inflation then bond yields would drop but Keynesian policy would boost spending, boost inflation and move us back to 'good times' (OK levels of inflation). The problem is obviously the good times which any govt would like to keep rolling into the election cycle - rather than raise taxes, reduce money supply*, etc to 'cool things down'. Pretty major flaw and that is the price we pay for 'democracy'. * Inflation in 'assets' and the money supply is ignored by BoE (et al). In 'boom' times then there could be various ways to reduce the money supply (eg if house pries are rising above inflation then reduce availability of credit and/or charge a premium for credit to reduce demand). Hiking taxes in boom times should be obvious but Thatcher spassed the O&G revenues on tax cuts and Blair spassed the NICE decade on public spending. Govts don't like setting up a rainy day fund for the next govt to spass (other than Major perhaps?) Yes, it’s something of an irony if high interest rates result in stoking inflation after all, rather than reducing it, and not necessarily a new phenomenon, given that high interest rates didn’t seem to work so well for Thatcher (unless as her chief economist suggested, the idea wasn’t to cut inflation but to trash the unions and favour capital via unemployment induced by high interest rates and cuts). cheltenham-gloucesteragainstcuts.org/2013/04/09/former-thatcher-adviser-alan-budd-spills-the-beans-on-the-use-of-unemployment-to-weaken-the-working-class-sound-familiar/The thing about having more money in the economy sloshing about in the good times, is that it will tend to be inflationary where supply is constrained, where business is unable to respond to extra demand, so it’s up to government to unlock supply. An obvious example is doing things to ensure more housebuilding, say. It can also invest in more counter-inflationary things, including energy. (Though there is an argument that investing in green energy won’t reduce prices by as much as hoped, as it will increase demand for and hence push up prices on things like lithium and cobalt. Then again, there are new battery technologies able to avoid cobalt and to use sodium in place of lithium etc.) High interest rates will likely eventually cause a recession and unemployment which then deals with inflation but that seems a painful way to deal with it IMO (and I'll avoid a 'Groundhog Day' discussion about trade unions but in the past they have certainly contributed towards the 2nd round effects of a 'wage-price' spiral and IMO that had to be dealt with). I'm getting increasingly 'gammon' about the relaxed view that BoE need to crush inflation even if that means a recession - one that could spiral quite nasty if we then get into 'debt deflation'* BoE are IMO getting close to being as big a problem now as trade unions were back before Thatcher had to crush them - yet hardly anyone is saying "BoE are the problem" My comment was more WRT to how HMG can reduce demand but I'd agree there is a lot they can do to increase supply as well (which would also have the effect of reducing prices). I'd include 'labour' via a flexible points based immigration policy (ie in times of high inflation then we have higher immigration via work visas and then curtail immigration if/when unemployment starts to rise). 'Investing' can sometimes stoke demand and there are issues around supplies of stuff like lithium and cobalt. That should promote alternatives though and, as you know, I'm not keen on having all our eggs in one basket and we can produce and store an enormous amount of H2 in UK - if we have the will to find the ways to do so. * Although for anyone thinking IL gilts are a good investment due to high current inflation then note those don't have an inflation 'floor' (ie if inflation turns -ve then the indexation also turns -ve). That is actually good news for UK taxpayers though as 'what goes around, comes around' and the recent big increases in debt interest payments due to UK's high % of IL debt might seem bad now but will pretty astute if/when BoE overdo it (as IMO they will). |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 11, 2023 16:46:23 GMT
zzz ZZZ but Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (9 July 2023)
Labour 52% (-1) Conservative 27% (+1) Reform UK 9% (–) Liberal Democrat 6% (–) Green 4% (–) Plaid Cymru 1% (–) Other 2% (+1) redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-9-july-2023/and on immigration: "Red Wall voters say they do not at all trust the Conservatives to deliver on immigration (53%).. Labour is (also) most likely to be not at all trusted on.. immigration (39%)"
Some partisan bias boost for LAB compared to CON but folks don't trust either party to deliver on immigration and RUK have noticed that and are offering 'Alternative for UK'. PS For shevii then UKIP GE'15 manifesto had more than just Leave.EU in it and IIRC there was a LAB govt that went into a GE with "education, education, education" as their 3word slogan/single issue policy. Braverman has gifted RUK their slogan already. RUK will obviously have more than one policy in GE'24 manifesto but IMO people won't be voting for them to Reform HoL or bring in PR - they'll be voting for them IF Rishi fails to 'Stop the Boats' (or at least start 'controlling' immigration and significantly reducing the number of illegal immigrants). I don't want RUK to have many MPs but if RUK's % starts to increase in the polls then CON will have to do something about it rather than hope they can drag the confrontation in ECtHR out past GE'24. That is too long a time period to drag it out IMO (although the court cases in ECtHR will take time then the flights to Rwanda need to start asap). |
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2023 17:11:33 GMT
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Post by neilj on Jul 11, 2023 17:11:37 GMT
Strong words
"Theresa May says new asylum bill will 'consign more people to slavery'
Theresa May says if Lords amendment 56 to the illegal immigration bill is overthrown it will “consign more people to slavery – no doubt about it”"
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 11, 2023 17:11:55 GMT
Considering there has always been a widely held view in the Tory Party that would like to dismantle and defund the BBC, I wonder if appointing Tim Davie as MD of the corporation was a key part of the Cummings inspired cunning plan.
What better way to destroy an organisation that you despise than to put in charge of it some ineffectual Tory stooge who, as far I can tell from his various interviews today, is a thoroughly useless buffoon.
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2023 17:18:04 GMT
In Tory it's not our fault excuse number 43,273 this time it's the disgraceful decision to paint over some cartoon characters painted to make distressed vulnerable children feel slightly more comfortable. Good news it wasn't the humanity vacuum regime's fault after all it was naughty builders with some compassion painting them in the first place. The waste of skin Jenrick obviously had no choice but to have them destroyed. youtu.be/Ug9mrTVv71E |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 17:22:21 GMT
Considering there has always been a widely held view in the Tory Party that would like to dismantle and defund the BBC, I wonder if appointing Tim Davie as MD of the corporation was a key part of the Cummings inspired cunning plan. What better way to destroy an organisation that you despise than to put in charge of it some ineffectual Tory stooge who, as far I can tell from his various interviews today, is a thoroughly useless buffoon. Why are Tories  always referred to as “buffoons”. That’s racist, surely?  |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 11, 2023 17:35:31 GMT
I liked this: “ Kinnock says the government has “sent more home secretaries to Rwanda than they have asylum seekers” “ Unfortunately it also let them come back. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 11, 2023 17:36:06 GMT
Considering there has always been a widely held view in the Tory Party that would like to dismantle and defund the BBC, I wonder if appointing Tim Davie as MD of the corporation was a key part of the Cummings inspired cunning plan. What better way to destroy an organisation that you despise than to put in charge of it some ineffectual Tory stooge who, as far I can tell from his various interviews today, is a thoroughly useless buffoon. Why are Tories always referred to as “buffoons”. That’s racist, surely? I thought it was an acceptable euphemism. I know we've debated the use of the "gynecological term" before on this robust forum, and I'm aware some posters wear it as a badge of honour, revelling in being called the "gynecological term", berating snowflake flouncers for taking exception, but I thought calling Davie a "useless gynecological term" might get me into some trouble. As an expression, it is a mouthful though, isn't it? As Chubby Brown might say. You can see why some of our more expressive and cryptic posters use the shorter word. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 17:41:07 GMT
UK already has a very low 'reproduction rate' (1.56 per woman) without whatever you wish to consider as 'controls' at 1.56 per woman*. IE we'd have a shrinking population with net zero immigration and hence I'm OK with some immigration. An interesting question would be whether immigrants would be happy to learn they would only be permitted 1.5 children (per couple) if they stay here? Maybe the home secretary is missing a trick here. I dont understand why there is any question of refusing refugees right to remain here while we are voluntarily allowing in other migrants? If we are still allowing in others, isnt this saying they bought their citizenship here, and we are only willing to let people come if they pay us enough? |
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 17:44:34 GMT
]High interest rates will likely eventually cause a recession and unemployment which then deals with inflation What actual evidence is there that this has ever actually worked? I have never heard of any. Anyone know of any? Sure it is accepted belief, but so was the world being flat. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 17:44:53 GMT
Why are Tories always referred to as “buffoons”. That’s racist, surely? I thought it was an acceptable euphemism. I know we've debated the use of the "gynecological term" before on this robust forum, and I'm aware some posters wear it as a badge of honour, revelling in being called the "gynecological term", berating snowflake flouncers for taking exception, but I thought calling Davie a "useless gynecological term" might get me into some trouble. As an expression, it is a mouthful though, isn't it? As Chubby Brown might say. You can see why some of our more expressive and cryptic posters use the shorter word. I was on with Chubby Brown once. His language was unseemly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 17:47:15 GMT
]High interest rates will likely eventually cause a recession and unemployment which then deals with inflation What actual evidence is there that this has ever actually worked? I have never heard of any. Anyone know of any? Sure it is accepted belief, but so was the world being flat. What are you suggesting? If it wasn’t flat we’d fall off ffs. Unless you hog the middle bit I suppose. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 11, 2023 17:56:23 GMT
I thought I would try and find out what the much vaunted RefUK plan to stop migration actually is. Turns out that even down their racist rabbit-hole they don't actually have any more of a clue than anyone else. Ignoring all the bluster these seem to be the actual policy proposals:
Points based system for skilled migration in areas of need
No lower skilled migration at all (so goodbye care sector and crop harvesting)
"Declare a national security emergency" (??)
Leave the European Convention of Human Rights (hello Russia and Belarus)
Use offshore processing centres
No one arriving by illegal means to be granted asylum
"Create a new Department of Immigration staffed with people who believe in the task at hand" (perhaps they could give them nice smart black uniforms to wear?)
"Cases must be determined in just a few weeks and people returned to where they came from" (no indication how they would do either of those things).
Some obvious overlap with the Braverman plans but taken to a more extreme extent. But does anyone seriously think that even on its own terms this would actually work as a viable set of policies for the UK?
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 11, 2023 18:01:14 GMT
Considering there has always been a widely held view in the Tory Party that would like to dismantle and defund the BBC, I wonder if appointing Tim Davie as MD of the corporation was a key part of the Cummings inspired cunning plan. What better way to destroy an organisation that you despise than to put in charge of it some ineffectual Tory stooge who, as far I can tell from his various interviews today, is a thoroughly useless buffoon. Why are Tories always referred to as “buffoons”. That’s racist, surely? I think Tories might object that it is too foreign. They didn't take back control for this: "mid 16th century: from French bouffon, from Italian buffone, from medieval Latin buffo ‘clown’. Originally recorded as a rare Scots word for a kind of pantomime dance, the term later (late 16th century) denoted a professional jester." Not only continental but even worse - Scottish!  |
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:07:51 GMT
Okinawa Update: as previous, there has been growing concern about what's going on with covid in Okinawa, Japan, where hospitalisation rates are through the roof, and worse than at any time during the pandemic. If anything serious is happening there with covid, then I imagine they would indeed be well above admissions during the epidemic, because those were negligible compared to what europe experienced. They could still be negligible compared to the european experience and yet worse than 'during' the pandemic. Maybe there is. The UK and most of the world had far more cases of serious covid than Japan. Now that might be because the Japanes naturally isolate, just as it was claimed people in Hastings naturally isolate better and thats why Hastings never got covid in spring 2020. Or alternatively, Japan never got much covid because it was already pretty immune. That was perfectly doable, all you needed to do was get any of the previously circulating sars, mers, or indeed other related corona viruses we might never even have noticed. So then both Japan and hastings didnt get the strain circulating spring 2020 because both had past infections which rendered them immune. In Hastings case, propably the same strain but it arrived in Hastings late 2019 and ended pretty much unremarked except as a bad flu-like illness in the town, before the nation generally started looking for covid or testing. If Japan became immune through exposure to diseases before 2020, and as a result didnt get much of the new covid strains, then its immunity would by now be becoming rather out of date. Worse perhaps than that in europe now, where we have had many covid infections. The vaccines are increasingly out of date, and were never designed to give broad based immunity. Its likely that if Europe had at this point never had a covid infection but instead everyone had been thoroughly vaccinated, then the latest covid strain arriving in Europe now would cause a huge wave of illness despite those vaccinations. Japan may be suffering from relying on the vaccine. Or as you say, not allowing people to catch enough covid often enough as the strains have evolved. Its important to keep up with the latest changes by being reinfected. |
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:09:47 GMT
I fully concur that 'once you have hanged someone for a crime they did not commit you cannot bring them back to life.' And that is my primary objection to capital punishment. But neither the Birmingham Six nor the Guilford Four were executed. Of course, if they had been perhaps no one would have bothered invetigating further and looked for the real perpetrators. |
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Post by graham on Jul 11, 2023 18:11:38 GMT
Will the Lords stand firm on this Bill and force the Government to use the Parliament Act and so delay it for a year?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:17:00 GMT
Fees for private schools have risen by 40% since 2016 don't see many parents sending their little Ruperts and Cynthias to state schools instead. Why should removing bogus charity status be any different. Explain to me why a parent who educates their child at their own expense instead of at the expense of the state should not have this financial contribution recognised by the state contributing to that private education also? Logically, the state should provide a payment towards fees equaly to what it would otherwise spend per child, which is about £7,000 a head? Though I imagine thats less in primary schools and more in secondary. |
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Post by laszlo4new on Jul 11, 2023 18:24:01 GMT
There is no wage caused inflation. Higher wages just reduce the profit, so the highly concentrated capital compensates for it by increasing prices.
The increased demand (due to higher incomes) may increase some of the prices, but this doesn't have a causal like (the Marshall Cross has been debunked for a hundred years - it assumes that commodities enter the market without a price). In any case, the demand by the lower and middle-income customers has been falling for some time
To put it simpler: the price is not (mc+w)+p but mc+(w+p), where MC is the material cost, w is wage and p is profit.
The higher interest rates will bring in a recession, but it is badly needed. The average age of fixed assets in public companies has been increasing for 13 years (apart from 2014-15), that is, renewal and devaluation has been postponed. A recession would give the opportunity to change it. As long as it doesn't happen, the highly concentrated capital will keep on compensating the falling rate of profit by higher prices which is the main cause of today's inflation (but the still lingering quantitative easing and the effects of the war obviously heightened it). There is about £6 trillion that tries to find some investment worldwide, but it is not available.
And just because of the last sentence: A British company is buying the largest Hungarian steel factory (Dunafer) - I researched the company in the mid-1990s and in the late 2000s. It was owned by a Ukrainian steel comapny.
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:31:09 GMT
you cannot pull down the price of essentials coming from outside. You have to adjust to them. Internally you might indeed look at profits of companies and see if you might tax them more and subsidise other things, for example by providing cheap housing. Thereby forcing them to invest. Well you can pull down the price of imported essentials, e.g. you can impose price controls and enact subsidies etc. we saw that just recently. Price controls caused most electricity retail companies to go bust. The others only remained solvent because the government guaranteed that in the future their losses would be recouped. Government also engaged in massive subsidies which it has now abandoned, because they were unaffordable over any length of time. Is the final upshot electricty prices have now doubled? But that feels a bit better instead of tripled? However we still have to adjust to the doubled. Since we deliberately engineered rising fuel costs through government policy, you might wonder why we didnt. I guess because it would only be a temporary measure, and anyway it was a deliberate plan to push up prices, just more gradually, so that we would all switch to renewables. Skame too the government never sent itself the memo when it banned onshore wind and slashed investment in insulation. I am puzzled how doubling or perhaps eventually trippling interest rates is going to help industry invest? Surely its more a sure guarantee it will not? the Uk economy is not very productive per man hour worked. That has to be because of lack of investment, not a shortage of men. We do not have a labour shortage in general, merely an investment shortage, which as I said doesnt seem likely to be solved by making company borrowing more expensive. |
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:35:27 GMT
Newspaper that paid a 16 year old girl to leave school so that they could publish topless photos of her, says with a straight face that it's a scandal that a man pays £35000 for photos of a 17 year old. yes, but if they publish them far more people will get to enjoy them, so its far more worthwhile than just one person seeing them. Dont worry, they may still publish these ones if they can get hold of them. |
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2023 18:35:55 GMT
neiljAnd the lowest of the low voted overwhelmingly to reject the Lord's amendment
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Post by Danny on Jul 11, 2023 18:44:26 GMT
I have also felt (since I worked it out in a moment of revelation when I was 14) that we will face unstoppable mass migration into the global north, unless we achieve that population decline. There's nothing whatsoever we can do about, aside from suck it up or have armed guards at every border point and sit back and watch migrants starve or drown trying to break in. As someone else posted, we have already achieved population decline in Europe. Its only being maintained by immigration. Its long been recognised that people automatically have fewer children once they get assured stable lives and confidence their fewer children will survive to old age. Also indeed that if they dont, the state will provide. To reduce the world population, what we needed to do was bring undeveloped countries up to our wealth standards, and they would stop having more kids. Thats one of the reasons behind the drive to minimum foreign aid budgets, because actually thats buying us an escape from their migrants wanting to come here. I expect lockdown did more to reduce fertility because people couldnt stand being cooped up with their kids. Now rather more serious is global warming. Which will drive down wealth standards everywhere thus increasing the birth rate again, plus all those wanting to leave places becoming uninhabitable. So yes, we will end up having to shoot people at border crossings. Or on the beaches as they land. But we arent there yet. Con at the moment cannot realistically expect their Rwanda policy to actually come into effect and make any difference to boat people before the time of the next election. What they are really after at the moment is the theatre of claiming they have a solution which is being thwarted by the opposition. The best sort of policy is one which you are never allowed to enact, because then it always remains a rallying cause. |
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Post by EmCat on Jul 11, 2023 19:33:30 GMT
I'm hesitant to predict end of days or Mad Max because these things haven't happened in my lifetime and crises in my lifetime have resolved themselves, Mention Mad Max, and most people think of the post-societal collapse of Mad Max 2, or Beyond Thunderdome or Fury Road. However, in the first film, Max was a cop, albeit where society was beginning to unravel, and becoming judge, jury and executioner was becoming the way to remove matters. If the height of civilisation (however that is defined) is given a score of 100, then the first film is somewhere around 70. The subsequent films are less than 20. As a comparison, the UK was probably still in the high 90s as recently as 2010, but recent events (such as the Illegal Migration Bill, the threats to join Russia and Belarus outside the ECHR, the general rise in "othering" of those aren't fully supporting the current regime, manufactured culture war, and so forth) would probably bring the score down to mid-80s. So, as mercian points out, still a civilised society, but slipping. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 11, 2023 19:56:01 GMT
Richard Tice (RUK) is quite right to call it a "shambolic farce" and mock CON HMG for their failure to get Rwanda scheme started* but does Kinnock realise that aping RUK is probably not that smart a move given LAB are almost certainly going to have an OM after GE'24? "the Rwanda plan has thus far failed to begin implementation, Kinnock said the government had sent more home secretaries to Rwanda than asylum seekers"
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2023/jul/11/more-home-secretaries-in-rwanda-than-asylum-seekers-tories-criticised-on-immigration-bill-video#Yeah, like "no sh1t Sherlock" (ie we know) and when LAB take over and do f-all** to deal with illegal immigration then folks might start to look for 'Alternative for UK'. So Kinnock can make some cheap political point scoring while he can as that certainly ups the awareness of the issue and the failure of CON HMG to deal with it, but someone with more intelligence might realise that LAB are going to inherit whatever CON have fail to do and then folks will be questioning WTF is LAB doing to deal with the issue. Then when CON have failed and LAB have failed... then who do we turn to? What is the 'Alternative for UK'? * Braverman was an idiot to say anyone coming in illegally on a small boat from a specific date (in the past) would be eligible for processing in Rwanda as that 'legality' has to go through the UK courts. However, folks are aware that we left the EU, that Parliament is sovereign and UK courts 'judge' on UK law. So "get the f-ck on with it" and change the law if the law needs changing. If likes of Theresa May and Tobias Ellwood have an issue then they lose the whip - simples. If Rishi can't get this sorted before GE'24 then more folks are going to vote for RUK (and whilst some short-termist, low intelligence, LAB MPs might think that is great then you "reap what you sow" and "what goes around, comes around" when LAB take over) ** Cooper is wisely letting Kinnock be the 'useful idiot' as RUK are likely to take VI from CON but WTF is she going to do about illegal immigration once France say "non" to returns and folks start to realise LAB has absolutely no plan whatsoever to deal with illegal immigration. Perhaps look to countries in continental Europe to see which way gen.pub swing when the 'liberal-luvvy' types fail. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 11, 2023 20:13:28 GMT
Trevor's argument above boils down to saying we need to enact illegal, inhuman and racist policies now in order to head off the risk of enacting illegal, inhuman and racist policies later. I think I can detect the flaw there.
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Post by RAF on Jul 11, 2023 20:17:11 GMT
Richard Tice (RUK) is quite right to call it a "shambolic farce" and mock CON HMG for their failure to get Rwanda scheme started* but does Kinnock realise that aping RUK is probably not that smart a move given LAB are almost certainly going to have an OM after GE'24? "the Rwanda plan has thus far failed to begin implementation, Kinnock said the government had sent more home secretaries to Rwanda than asylum seekers"
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2023/jul/11/more-home-secretaries-in-rwanda-than-asylum-seekers-tories-criticised-on-immigration-bill-video#Yeah, like "no sh1t Sherlock" (ie we know) and when LAB take over and do f-all** to deal with illegal immigration then folks might start to look for 'Alternative for UK'. So Kinnock can make some cheap political point scoring while he can as that certainly ups the awareness of the issue and the failure of CON HMG to deal with it, but someone with more intelligence might realise that LAB are going to inherit whatever CON have fail to do and then folks will be questioning WTF is LAB doing to deal with the issue. Then when CON have failed and LAB have failed... then who do we turn to? What is the 'Alternative for UK'? * Braverman was an idiot to say anyone coming in illegally on a small boat from a specific date (in the past) would be eligible for processing in Rwanda as that 'legality' has to go through the UK courts. However, folks are aware that we left the EU, that Parliament is sovereign and UK courts 'judge' on UK law. So "get the f-ck on with it" and change the law if the law needs changing. If likes of Theresa May and Tobias Ellwood have an issue then they lose the whip - simples. If Rishi can't get this sorted before GE'24 then more folks are going to vote for RUK (and whilst some short-termist, low intelligence, LAB MPs might think that is great then you "reap what you sow" and "what goes around, comes around" when LAB take over) ** Cooper is wisely letting Kinnock be the 'useful idiot' as RUK are likely to take VI from CON but WTF is she going to do about illegal immigration once France say "non" to returns and folks start to realise LAB has absolutely no plan whatsoever to deal with illegal immigration. Perhaps look to countries in continental Europe to see which way gen.pub swing when the 'liberal-luvvy' types fail. Your core problem, Trevor, is that the Tory scheme is unworkable and would not reduce "illegal" migration or asylum numbers. Asking whether Lab have a workable plan either (of course not!) If fair enough, but implying a plan that is so bad it has yet to be implemented, is unlikely to ever be implanted, and wouldn't work to appreciably reduce numbers even if it could be implanted; is the solution, is rather clutching at paper straws. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 11, 2023 20:47:04 GMT
What does it say about the state of the modern Conservative Party that in relation to its current immigration policy, Theresa "Hostile Environment" May is now its bleeding heart?
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always referred to as “buffoons”. That’s racist, surely? 
