pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 4, 2023 20:50:35 GMT
It is important to note that life expectancy is about a lot more than a country's health system. Diet is a huge factor, with the western diet high in meat, fat, sugar and salt being a disaster. the Mediterranean diet is much better, as is any cuisine high in fish and veg and low in meat and carbs. A major problem in this country is how the RoC press always start bleating about 'the nanny state' whenever anyone tries to take positive steps on this issue. So if you are relaxed about life expectancy have a look at those two reports on outcomes for treatment of serious disease. Or just keep worshiping at the NHS shrine with the approved doctrine. I'm not at all relaxed about life expectancy. I would like to see radical government action against the food manufacturing and retailing industries who place profit above people's health. As to the NHS, I'm afraid we are all wise to the Tory trick of massively under-funding it for years and then claiming it has failed so that it can be flogged off for profit. Away with you, sir. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 4, 2023 20:56:09 GMT
It was yesteryear, once upon a time, long ago, when we were young. You’ve never been young surely?!?!? Yes, but I was always a b*stard |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 4, 2023 21:02:29 GMT
It was yesteryear, once upon a time, long ago, when we were young. You’ve never been young surely?!?!? So much younger than today |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 21:06:08 GMT
“Natty and Batty talk Scottish politics” - coming to your local radio station soon. The  and  show. Tickets available direct from me. Cash only please, no Scottish currency accepted due to devolution/depreciation fears. (nb pm FM) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 21:08:52 GMT
You’ve never been young surely?!?!? So much younger than today But now these days are gone I’m not so self assured. (Actually a very deep song by our John*) *He was from Liverpool you know. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 21:12:07 GMT
Roy Hattersley had a regular column back in the day (might have been in the Sunday edition). Back in which bleedin’ day?!?!? That is yet another trendy, new, utterly meaningless phrase that I find beyond irritating Pete. Please provide precise dates in future - preferably with a time of day (in British* Mean Time of course.) * Or English Mean Time as you would know it. Got to hold my hand up here. I know I use this expression regularly myself, (in fact I think I did earlier today!). I'd hardly call it/me trendy, but I find it a simple, useful, catch-all expression for something that used to be the case in years gone by, but where I'm not completely sure of/can't be *rsed to find out exactly when. I'll try to be less lazy in future, but can't promise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 21:12:17 GMT
Apologies for multiple posts. I should be practising Bach’s Ciaccona but am trying to emulate ole Danny instead. Did anyone else know that J. S. Bach wrote the first draft of Partita no. 2 in D minor, BWV 1004 when he was holidaying in Hastings in 1722 by the way?
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 4, 2023 21:28:44 GMT
For those that can't see Twitter. Here's Starmer tweeting at 8am this morning (or some eejit on his account) - This is the complete tweet.
"Keir Starmer
Labour will give communities control of their own future."
A reasonable person on any omnibus (or other form of transport) might consider that "What the fuck does that mean?" to be an appropriate response. The traveller can be easily enlightened. It is a reference to this: labour.org.uk/page/a-new-britain/
"The UK is the most centralised country in Europe."
It isn't. It has the potential to be such, given the claims of unfettered parliamentary sovereignty that Westminster has, but a state with three legislative bodies at sub-state level is not "the most centralised country in Europe".
Maybe England is, and perhaps the author of the report is one of those "challenged" individuals whose knowledge of political geography is somewhat limited.
I was interested in the suggestions for Scotland, since the previous extent of further devolution was Brown's idea of giving Holyrood control of Job Centres.
Since you have flagged up this report, I'll turn my attention to them in subsequent comments. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 4, 2023 21:42:23 GMT
A reasonable person on any omnibus (or other form of transport), on seeing your comment, might consider that "How the fuck does that relate to Starmer's tweet?" to be an appropriate response. Unless, of course, you mean that the community of Labour MPs in Starmer's Cabinet will control their own future - and everyone else's whether they like it or not. You know perfectly well what it relates to. You have commented on Brown's devolution proposals at length, and even accepted they are significant in relation to English local government. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 4, 2023 21:48:29 GMT
When he's right he's right as we said back in the day
"Thatcher's" EU is off the table. The opt-outs she negotiated have been thrown in the bin. Membership of the EU will still be better for every polity in the EU than being out in the cold, but Ellwood is just flying a flag up the pole to see how how it flutters. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 4, 2023 21:49:52 GMT
You know perfectly well what it relates to. You have commented on Brown's devolution proposals at length, and even accepted they are significant in relation to English local government. Fair enough, given the obvious sincerity of your previous post. For whatever reason I twigged the connection immediately, so I assumed it was more obvious than perhaps it was. A lot of the content does depend on whether or not you think Starmer will keep the promise to reform the HoL. he has said the 'devolution' agenda to local government is a still one of his priorities. Time will tell I suppose. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 4, 2023 21:53:19 GMT
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 4, 2023 22:08:50 GMT
Until you provided the link, I had no idea what the tweet related to. It's hardly a model of an informative tweet! The report has had zero coverage on the Scottish news, so the relationship was obscure, to say the least. Fair enough, given the obvious sincerity of your previous post. For whatever reason I twigged the connection immediately, so I assumed it was more obvious than perhaps it was. A lot of the content does depend on whether or not you think Starmer will keep the promise to reform the HoL. he has said the 'devolution' agenda to local government is a still one of his priorities. Time will tell I suppose.
In Scottish politics, things are a little different. As the Survation report pointed out "much will depend on Labour's approach to devolution". If during the next UK Parliamentary term, Labour in Downing St is not perceived to be any better than an honest version of the current lot as far as policy goes, then the "critical mass" of voters - those in favour of enhanced Scottish autonomy who move between voting SNP and SLab, may be less than willing to give Labour/UK yet another chance. As you say, "time will tell". |
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Post by mercian on Jul 4, 2023 22:12:40 GMT
Apologies for multiple posts. I should be practising Bach’s Ciaccona but am trying to emulate ole Danny instead. Did anyone else know that J. S. Bach wrote the first draft of Partita no. 2 in D minor, BWV 1004 when he was holidaying in Hastings in 1722 by the way? To do that you have to write posts that take up at least half a page of this site, usually about stuff no-one else except alec cares about. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 4, 2023 22:14:28 GMT
Regarding Ukaine, newsnight is reporting that Russia has announced Ukraine is about to attack the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant. They reported mysterious objects have appeared on the roof of the buildings and russians warned to evacuate the plant. Typically Russia announces Ukraine is about to attack something to cover doing so itself.
I presume if it was blown up in a modest way, at minimum it would pollute the entire river and therefore the water supply for a huge region, and this would flow downstream causing problems for any army attempting to move east towards crimea. It might pollute a large area making a no mans land defending the main Russian areas. Russia doesnt care a damn how much of Ukraine gets rendered uninhabitable, and most defintiely if it believed it was inevitably going to lose in the current war, then it would make a lot of sense to Russia to leave a massive wasteland behind it and therefore permanently cripple the Ukrainian economy.
On the other hand, not sure they are quite that convinced of losing yet, but of course like the dam the power plant is on the edge of the territory they hold, and they cannot so easily blow it up after they lose control. So need to do it sooner rather than later. Need to get the wind blowing towards Ukraine, and make the release not too big so it doesnt blow back towards Russia, but a bit of radiation could likely be hidden, and a modest amount of damage blamed on the dastardly Ukrainians might help solidify Putin's grip on power.
There is a risk it would hamper Russian troops more than Ukrainian, but again if you really thought you were going to have to pull back anyway, it would make a lot of sense.
Whether this happens now or not, its obvious plans will have been laid by Russia to blow the plant if it becomes militarily beneficial. The only response to that happening has to be an escalation of western involvement. It is possible this is a bluff, but it kinda looks like it would be a win win for Russia if it happens.
All this just as the UK government has decided it wants to build some more nuclear plants in the UK. Ready for the Russians to blow up, should it come to open warfare. If the Uk had relied upon nuclear power during WW2, it would obviously have lost after germany blew them up.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 4, 2023 22:17:38 GMT
Why does Sunak not revert to previous practice re- PMQs which was two 15 minute sessions a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Blair brought in the present 30 minute session once a week , but Sunak is not bound by his preferences. Better yet, cut the single session to 5 minutes, with an optional written answer instead? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 22:20:02 GMT
Apologies for multiple posts. I should be practising Bach’s Ciaccona but am trying to emulate ole Danny instead. Did anyone else know that J. S. Bach wrote the first draft of Partita no. 2 in D minor, BWV 1004 when he was holidaying in Hastings in 1722 by the way? To do that you have to write posts that take up at least half a page of this site, usually about stuff no-one else except alec cares about. I write short posts cos I don’t know that many words. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jul 4, 2023 23:29:49 GMT
The Tories have gained Kings Hedges in Cambridge by 24 votes. Con 622 Lab 598 LD 418 Grn 142 Not a very good example of tactical voting!
I suppose it will provide useful material for local Labour literature there. 'A LD vote helps the Tories win!'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2023 23:43:12 GMT
The Tories have gained Kings Hedges in Cambridge by 24 votes. Con 622 Lab 598 LD 418 Grn 142 Not a very good example of tactical voting!
I suppose it will provide useful material for local Labour literature there. 'A LD vote helps the Tories win!'
Mid-Beds electors, please note. |
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Post by eor on Jul 4, 2023 23:46:17 GMT
Is this like the LTN thing in Oxford in the recent locals? Someone said upthread that the Tories had done quite well last time around anyway, so is this the same kind of polarising local issue?
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 4, 2023 23:57:44 GMT
For the benefit of those on this board who have an avid interest in the constitutional status of Scotland within the precious UK, here are Labour's proposals which pjw1961 gave us access to.
"16. Enhanced Protection: Scottish devolution should be constitutionally protected by strengthening the Sewel Convention and protecting it from amendment through the new second chamber.
17. Enhanced status internationally in devolved areas: the Foreign Affairs reservation should be amended to permit the Scottish Government, with the agreement of the Scottish Parliament, to enter into international agreements and join international bodies in relation to devolved matters.
18. Enhanced status for MSPs: Members of the Scottish Parliament should enjoy the same privileges and protections as Members of Parliament In relation to statements made in their proceedings.
19.Enhanced local control: there is a strong case for pushing power as close as possible to people in Scotland, and consideration should be given to establishing new forms of local and regional leadership, such as directly elected Mayors.
20.Enhanced opportunities for co-operation to mutual benefit: there should be not only enhanced self-government for Scotland but strengthened cooperation with the UK Government to address the challenges Scotland faces today.
21. Enhanced access to economic resources for Scotland: the British Regional Investment Bank should maximise support for innovation and investment in Scotland, in conjunction with the Scottish National Investment Bank and the European Investment Bank."
Gordon Brown will be devastated that control of Job Centres hasn't been listed.
In reverse order -
21. If the suggestion is that Scotland should have greater investment from the BRIB than rUK, would seem unfair to the regions of England that have been so badly treated by previous Con/Lab governments. If it is just to be treated like any other part of the UK then that is no "enhancement".
20. There will be no objection from ScotGov to "enhanced cooperation" with UKGov. The lack of that under the Tory UKGov has been a significant problem. Whether as areas within a state, or as independent ones, co-operation between neighbours always makes sense. The only "enhancement" here would be eliminating the current Tory blockage to cooperation.
19. Local government in Scotland is a matter for Holyrood, not Westminster. If SLab wants to propose such a change before the next Holyrood elections then they should do so, but they would be well advised to use the appropriate terminology - Provost not Mayor. If they follow the current example in England of using FPTP, that would probably hand control of many councils to the SNP, while AV would allow them to share the power positions with their Tory pals.
18.Whether Scots would want their MSPs to have immunity from legal action for whatever they might want to say in the Chamber has not been raised in polls. I doubt that most would give a damn, though I can see that opposition MSPs might welcome the opportunity to be more scurrilous than they already are. Should SLab form ScotGov in the future they might seriously regret that move!
17 and 16 are more interesting, so I'll come back to them later (you lucky people!)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 0:02:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 0:07:34 GMT
For the benefit of those on this board who have an avid interest in the constitutional status of Scotland within the precious UK, here are Labour's proposals which pjw1961 gave us access to.
"16. Enhanced Protection: Scottish devolution should be constitutionally protected by strengthening the Sewel Convention and protecting it from amendment through the new second chamber.
17. Enhanced status internationally in devolved areas: the Foreign Affairs reservation should be amended to permit the Scottish Government, with the agreement of the Scottish Parliament, to enter into international agreements and join international bodies in relation to devolved matters.
18. Enhanced status for MSPs: Members of the Scottish Parliament should enjoy the same privileges and protections as Members of Parliament In relation to statements made in their proceedings.
19.Enhanced local control: there is a strong case for pushing power as close as possible to people in Scotland, and consideration should be given to establishing new forms of local and regional leadership, such as directly elected Mayors.
20.Enhanced opportunities for co-operation to mutual benefit: there should be not only enhanced self-government for Scotland but strengthened cooperation with the UK Government to address the challenges Scotland faces today.
21. Enhanced access to economic resources for Scotland: the British Regional Investment Bank should maximise support for innovation and investment in Scotland, in conjunction with the Scottish National Investment Bank and the European Investment Bank."
Gordon Brown will be devastated that control of Job Centres hasn't been listed.
In reverse order -
21. If the suggestion is that Scotland should have greater investment from the BRIB than rUK, would seem unfair to the regions of England that have been so badly treated by previous Con/Lab governments. If it is just to be treated like any other part of the UK then that is no "enhancement".
20. There will be no objection from ScotGov to "enhanced cooperation" with UKGov. The lack of that under the Tory UKGov has been a significant problem. Whether as areas within a state, or as independent ones, co-operation between neighbours always makes sense. The only "enhancement" here would be eliminating the current Tory blockage to cooperation.
19. Local government in Scotland is a matter for Holyrood, not Westminster. If SLab wants to propose such a change before the next Holyrood elections then they should do so, but they would be well advised to use the appropriate terminology - Provost not Mayor. If they follow the current example in England of using FPTP, that would probably hand control of many councils to the SNP, while AV would allow them to share the power positions with their Tory pals.
18.Whether Scots would want their MSPs to have immunity from legal action for whatever they might want to say in the Chamber has not been raised in polls. I doubt that most would give a damn, though I can see that opposition MSPs might welcome the opportunity to be more scurrilous than they already are. Should SLab form ScotGov in the future they might seriously regret that move!
17 and 16 are more interesting, so I'll come back to them later (you lucky people!) Channeling your inner Tommy Trinder, I see. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jul 5, 2023 0:17:06 GMT
17 and 16 are more interesting, so I'll come back to them later (you lucky people!)Channeling your inner Tommy Trinder, I see. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 0:27:12 GMT
Channeling your inner Tommy Trinder, I see. I appreciate that, at 64, I am but a callow youth compared to some of the more 'mature' denizens of UKPR2, but knowledge of boring old cr*p can sometimes be a boon in these august pages. |
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Post by expatr on Jul 5, 2023 1:01:26 GMT
Two really significant figures here
Tories as low as during the CaTRUSStrophe
LDs picking up (signs of tactical thinking)
This is really bad for Sunak
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Post by alec on Jul 5, 2023 5:59:16 GMT
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Post by alec on Jul 5, 2023 6:02:03 GMT
NHS - lost of red herrings this morning about charges, how we pay for it, big reforms etc.
First things first. We need to talk first and foremost about how much we pay. Get ourselves up to the average to countries with good health services. Once we've done that, then we can work out the best way to meet those financial commitments.
Or we can decide to pay less and have a second rate health service, like the present situation.
Very simple.
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Post by alec on Jul 5, 2023 6:08:53 GMT
More from that BMA covid survey. In their statement, the BMA said;
“Infection control guidelines are fundamentally flawed: SARS-CoV-2 is airborne. It is outrageous that three-and-a-half years into this pandemic, staff and patients are still, knowingly and repeatedly, being exposed to a level-3 biohazard – a virus known to cause brain damage and significantly increased risk of life-threatening blood complications even in those recovered. Healthcare workers must be provided with respiratory protection and the air quality in hospitals be monitored and improved through the installation of ventilation systems and air filter units.”
Won't get your health service back until everyone wakes up to this. Everything else is window dressing.
Follow the science.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2023 6:15:53 GMT
The Tories have gained Kings Hedges in Cambridge by 24 votes. Con 622 Lab 598 LD 418 Grn 142 Not a very good example of tactical voting!
I suppose it will provide useful material for local Labour literature there. 'A LD vote helps the Tories win!'
It looks like the tories won it on being against a congestion charge, Labour, LDs & Greens were for it in one form or another There is a lesson, even though a big majority of voters voted for parties supportive of congestion charges, the vote was split and the tories got in |
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