Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 28, 2022 18:16:29 GMT
Good to see this discussion in the mainstream press, albeit in the US - For those interested, this is the NYT article - www.nytimes.com/2022/11/28/opinion/winter-rsv-covid-flu.html?smid=tw-shareWe've actually learned an awful lot about how we can stop respiratory viruses because of the covid pandemic, and as the second tweet in the thread says, some people are keen to go straight back to the pre 2019 days when lots of people got sick with 'flu and RSV every winter, while others are saying that with a few simple steps we could all be so much healthier and better off, as well as ridding ourselves of covid. Its paywalled. But are you saying its just people posting their own opinions? Covid is a very contageous disease. I'm not clear anywhere in the world has managed to eradicate it, nor are even trying because they think its poinless and hopeless. Unless you mean China, where it seems the country is on the point of rebellion because of the attempt to keep out covid? Is your plan to make the Uk ungovernable? |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2022 18:20:07 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w To reiterate the point I made some time ago - about your claim that some people 'might have voted for Brexit despite knowing they might take a hit for it'. There is good polling evidence from before the 2016 referendum that very very few of those voting Leave expected adverse consequences for themselves or for the UK. Per the figures below from YouGov with fieldwork on 20-22 June 2016, just 3% of those intending to vote Leave thought that leaving the EU would make them worse off, while the overwhelming majority thought it would make them better, or make no difference. And to take a few other figures from the same poll, just 4% of Leavers thought it would make Britain worse (v 48% of them who thought it would make the country better off), and 2% of them thought it would be 'Bad for Jobs' (v 44% 'Good for Jobs'). So the polling numbers among those who voted Leave show that only a tiny minority expected adverse consequences. d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/atmwrgevvj/TimesResults_160622_EVEOFPOLL.pdf It depends what timescale you're looking at. I think a lot of Leave voters realised that there might well be some short-term (a few years) economic consequences, but that long term prospects would be good because of freedom from having to follow rules that might suit other countries more than us. TOH reckoned 2030 would be a reasonable time to make a judgement and that seems about right to me. Having said that, the economy was not a major consideration for me anyway. Yes, the long-term impact did crop up in the convo at the time IIRC. |
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Post by jimjam on Nov 28, 2022 18:26:59 GMT
Plead the 5th.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 28, 2022 18:35:52 GMT
Danny - "Growing unrest in China because of its policy of zero covid. Governments everywhere else in the world, and even posters here such as alec should pay attention at what happens if you really try to eradicate covid." Even posters like Danny should pay attention to the meaning of eradication. I've never once called for eradication of covid. Something else you don't understand. Then I really dont understand what you do want. Either you eradicate it so it cease to be present altogether, or it will come back the moment you stop suppressing it. Thats even supposing there is anything short of Chinese style locking people in their homes indefinitely which will actually suppress it anyway. As china makes very obvious, the more you succeed in suppression, the harder it becomes to do it. |
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Post by James E on Nov 28, 2022 18:37:52 GMT
It depends what timescale you're looking at. I think a lot of Leave voters realised that there might well be some short-term (a few years) economic consequences, but that long term prospects would be good because of freedom from having to follow rules that might suit other countries more than us. TOH reckoned 2030 would be a reasonable time to make a judgement and that seems about right to me. Having said that, the economy was not a major consideration for me anyway. Yes, the long-term impact did crop up in the convo at the time IIRC. There was quite a lot of revisionism after the referendum, but I don't recall any Leave leader (or supporter) speak about short-term or even medium-term difficulties, until after the vote had taken place. This is what I remember of the promised land portrayed by the Leave campaigns - and as with the YouGov poll I provided earlier - this is evedence from before 23rd June 2016, not after. reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/ |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Nov 28, 2022 18:43:19 GMT
Another day with very little wind in GB and NG got very nervous again: www.itv.com/news/2022-11-28/national-grid-may-pay-households-to-reduce-energy-to-avoid-blackouts-on-tuesdayNote the very thin pale blue line representing wind (0.32GW at 18:20 on 28Nov in case folks read this back later when 'current' reading will be different), also note when it gets dark at this time of year: gridwatch.co.ukAt least it's been very mild for this time of year but the impact there is mostly on reduced consumption of gas for heating. Good news for bill payers and the slice of the bill that future taxpayers are having to pick up but we need it to be windy (and for France to get it's nuclear fleet fully up and running again asap). |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Nov 28, 2022 18:47:03 GMT
Doesn't work in a state that could never be sufficiently arsed to create a codified constitution that could be amended - except by whoever has wormed their way into Downing St.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2022 18:50:53 GMT
Yes, the long-term impact did crop up in the convo at the time IIRC. There was quite a lot of revisionism after the referendum, but I don't recall any Leave leader (or supporter) speak about short-term or even medium-term difficulties, until after the vote had taken place. This is what I remember of the promised land portrayed by the Leave campaigns - and as with the YouGov poll I provided earlier - this is evedence from before 23rd June 2016, not after. reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/Yes, indeed, it didn’t seem prominent in campaigning before the vote! (It cropped up subsequent to the vote, e.g. when wondering whether some of those who voted leave who thought they’d take a hit, might hope that things might not be so bad later). |
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Post by ladyvalerie on Nov 28, 2022 18:52:48 GMT
It makes me smile that the poster on here who to my mind most exhibits a key behaviour associated with trolling, deliberately setting out to provoke, is also the most vocal in accusing those who challenge him of trolling! The simplest antidote is to pretend he’s not here. I genuinely have no idea why you read his stuff and then pontificate about it - it really doesn’t serve any purpose at all. (Unless your aim is to encourage even more posts from him?) I’m annoyed with myself for engaging in this actually, albeit one person removed, because it’s all grist to his mill and utterly pointless. His antics make me smile. Well not just him but also the others who are gnashing their teeth. Labour are 20 points ahead And I think to myself what a wonderful world 😀EDIT When I say others, I mean,of course, the other men. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2022 19:04:08 GMT
Another day with very little wind in GB and NG got very nervous again: www.itv.com/news/2022-11-28/national-grid-may-pay-households-to-reduce-energy-to-avoid-blackouts-on-tuesdayNote the very thin pale blue line representing wind (0.32GW at 18:20 on 28Nov in case folks read this back later when 'current' reading will be different), also note when it gets dark at this time of year: gridwatch.co.ukAt least it's been very mild for this time of year but the impact there is mostly on reduced consumption of gas for heating. Good news for bill payers and the slice of the bill that future taxpayers are having to pick up but we need it to be windy (and for France to get it's nuclear fleet fully up and running again asap). posted the link in the energy thread, but Rolls and Ineos are chatting about the former providing a small reactor for the latter to make hydrogen. |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 28, 2022 19:08:59 GMT
James E: "This is what I remember of the promised land portrayed by the Leave campaigns - and as with the YouGov poll I provided earlier - this is evidence from before 23rd June 2016, not after.
reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
Hubris in a nutshell. Hilarious at first sight, but really just deeply sad. And we've seen nothing yet.
(But one unintentionally perceptive point: Hannan quotes Lord Rose, the remain leader, as saying about the impact of brexit “It’s not going to be a step change, it’s going to be a gentle process.” Rose was absolutely right: it's a long, slow, remorseless, downhill grind. Take note, brexiteers who now claim 'project fear' prophesied an immediate catastrophe.)
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2022 19:09:10 GMT
ptarmigan - "For instance, Blair era Labour had some quite authoritarian tendencies when it came to crime and immigration." Christ almighty! You have a choice. It's either Labour, or Suella Braverman at the Home Office. Do you actually understand the world we're living in? What sort of a bar is "better than Suella Braverman"? Sometimes it just feels pointless engaging on here. The bar used to be someone who made Michael Howard look like a liberal Home Secretary, and I can remember some of Labour's Home Secretaries who couldn't even clear that. Actually, I think there is something in the Home Office that seems to turn all politicians there into frothing-at-the-mouth hangers and floggers. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 19:12:12 GMT
That means you dunnit. Guilty!!!!  |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2022 19:16:06 GMT
Rigobert, your my sort of football man and good luck to the Lions of Africa for the rest of this increasingly beguiling tournament in Qatar. Obviously you were never a goalie: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/63783542 If they had gone with their best goalie they might have won! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 19:18:42 GMT
Obviously membership meetings are in no way representative of voters who are what matters but I don't understand why Starmer is quite so determined at this point to paint himself as as brexity as Johnson? He could be more vague and dogmatically ruling out a return to free movement (I think about our lost free movement when I hear that phrase) really annoyed me. Why go out of your way to make that point now? Do they have intelligence that the Tories have drawn up brexit attack lines and are just trying to neuter them before they see the light of day? Do they have private polling that shows that brexit and free movement may remain a vote defining issue for an important subset of voters, ie ex Tory voting redwallers? Or are they just being ludicrously overcautious and risking themselves being way behind the curve of what's acceptable to the public? Yesterday I mused that he simply didn't want to get into power. Today I'm thinking that, actually, he's going to be all Brexitty now when it doesn't really matter, quieter on the subject during the '24 GE campaign (but still maintaining that 'we must make it work') and then after a year or two into office admit that 'I gave it a go. I embraced Brexit and all its opportunities [sic] but it's clear it isn't working and a closer relationship would be better for all of us'. By then the vast majority of the electorate will agree, as probably will the Tories.
Starmer can then never be labelled a 'remoaner' and instead let nature take its course. I said many moons ago (on this forum funnily enough - but not under my current username) that the only way to shut Brexitty people up about the matter was to go hard Brexit and watch it fail. It's literally the only way.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2022 19:19:30 GMT
Lexiteer: "I merely highlighted the source of one of the other 'usual suspects' with a petty personal vendetta from UKPR days."No. You falsified a quote. I wonder if you understand that a quote is a verbatim (ie word for word) repeat of what someone has said or written. If you change those words to something substantially different, that is misrepresentation. Your attempt to pass this off as "trolling" does you no credit. Thank you, I do normally try to avoid answering Warne. He did misrepresent me by falsifying my quote, that is dishonest in my book He then accused me of being over sensitive for objecting to it. If he had just apologised or even accepted it and said nothing, that would be acceptable, but even now he tries to claim he did nothing wrong and seeks to blame me for objecting to the dishonesty |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2022 19:29:16 GMT
Doesn't work in a state that could never be sufficiently arsed to create a codified constitution that could be amended - except by whoever has wormed their way into Downing St. The last completed amendment to the USA Constitution took over 200 years to get enough State legislatures to approve it so that it became part of the constitution. Is this your idea of progress? |
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Post by graham on Nov 28, 2022 19:44:10 GMT
🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
Labour lead is eighteen points in latest results from Deltapoll.
Con 30% (+5)
Lab 48% (-3)
Lib Dem 10% (+1)
Other 12% (-3)
Fieldwork: 24th - 28th November 2022
Sample: 1,062 GB adults
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Nov 28, 2022 19:49:26 GMT
Doesn't work in a state that could never be sufficiently arsed to create a codified constitution that could be amended - except by whoever has wormed their way into Downing St. The last completed amendment to the USA Constitution took over 200 years to get enough State legislatures to approve it so that it became part of the constitution. Is this your idea of progress? |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 28, 2022 19:52:19 GMT
I see TW posted about the shortage of wind power earlier.
What he didn't mention is that we've been bailed out by electricity imports currently running at over 5GW.
He's been bemoaning our recent electricity exports via these links as somehow propping up undeserving neighbours (exports? who needs successful exports?) but the point of these links is to balance out supply and demand between national markets, by responding to price signals.
Good to see the system working as intended, with mutual assistance between fellow Europeans (and profits all round).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 20:16:12 GMT
🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨 Labour lead is eighteen points in latest results from Deltapoll. Con 30% (+5) Lab 48% (-3) Lib Dem 10% (+1) Other 12% (-3) Fieldwork: 24th - 28th November 2022 Sample: 1,062 GB adults Do you happen to know when the last Deltapoll was published? I.e. what period the changes cover? Thanks in advance. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 28, 2022 20:17:55 GMT
Yes, the long-term impact did crop up in the convo at the time IIRC. There was quite a lot of revisionism after the referendum, but I don't recall any Leave leader (or supporter) speak about short-term or even medium-term difficulties, until after the vote had taken place. This is what I remember of the promised land portrayed by the Leave campaigns - and as with the YouGov poll I provided earlier - this is evedence from before 23rd June 2016, not after. reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/Boy oh boy, that article hasn't aged well. Pretty much 100% wrong. I won't be asked Daniel Hannan for next week's lottery numbers. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2022 20:18:15 GMT
🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨 Labour lead is eighteen points in latest results from Deltapoll. Con 30% (+5) Lab 48% (-3) Lib Dem 10% (+1) Other 12% (-3) Fieldwork: 24th - 28th November 2022 Sample: 1,062 GB adults Do you happen to know when the last Deltapoll was published? I.e. what period the changes cover? Thanks in advance. Changes from 17th - 19th November 2022 |
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Post by crossbat11 on Nov 28, 2022 20:22:35 GMT
Colin: "
I repeat -get over yourself-this isn't exactly a place of intellectual rigour and linguistic exactitude.'Get over myself? I see that I've made 467 posts on UKPR2, while you're on 2,759. So I think I'm considerably more sparing in sharing my views. As for JimJam, only he can answer as to whether he detected the error in TW's post before I flagged it up. But it's you who presumed, on the basis of no evidence, that he had. One of the aspects of the discussions on this forum that has always fascinated me is the perception that the ROC contributors clearly have of themselves that they are a beleaguered minority, kicking back bravely at a left wing echo chamber and the overall left-leaning groupthink that pervades it. The "you lot on here" sort of description is a regular comment of derision, but is it either statistically or politically true? I suppose if you look at the multiplicity of people who post, then I would imagine there are more LOC contributors than ROC, but surely the volume of posts dictates the tone of any discussion rather than the diversity of potential posters, many of whom only contribute sporadically. I invite anyone to scroll back through a thread and see the content and then judge for themselves the overall political tone. This current one, only 3 days old and 11 pages thus far (300+ posts) in length does enable you to do it before losing the will to live. It strikes me that there are two or three ROC contributors posting a great number of posts, supplemented by a number of other regular posters, Carfrew, johntel, mercian, OldNat and Hireton, to name but a few, who post largely anti-Labour and/or neutral contributions. Another very frequent poster, Danny, posts mainly Covid and Brexit related posts that have no overt left or right political undertones.
So I'm not quite sure where this left wing echo chamber idea comes from, to be honest. In any one page of a thread, numbering 30 posts, I'd say on average about 30% would be overtly ROC and another 30% politically neutral. The number of posters of either ROC or LOC persuasion is subordinate to the actual volume of posts in terms of dictating political tone, surely? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 20:27:27 GMT
Do you happen to know when the last Deltapoll was published? I.e. what period the changes cover? Thanks in advance. Changes from 17th - 19th November 2022 Thanks neilj. That seems quite a marked swing in just over a week considering domestic politics has probably been pushed down the news agenda a bit by the World Cup. Could still be largely MOE, I suppose. Time will tell. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2022 20:42:52 GMT
The last completed amendment to the USA Constitution took over 200 years to get enough State legislatures to approve it so that it became part of the constitution. Is this your idea of progress? You are misrepresenting what I wrote as usual. The Twenty-Seventh Amendment to the USA Constitution was presented to the States for ratification on September 25, 1789 but did not reach the threshold until May 5th 1992. Those Amendments that make up the Bill of Rights were quickly approved, but this one which prevented Congress from voting themselves pay-rises while in office was not. Do you really think it is desirable that individual states can hold up amendments to the constitution? It is notable that the amendments to prohibit slavery (Thirteenth to Fifteenth) were passed in the period just after the Civil War, at a time when the Southern States had not been re-admitted so they were forced to ratify them when they rejoined the Union. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Nov 28, 2022 20:43:35 GMT
Colin: "
I repeat -get over yourself-this isn't exactly a place of intellectual rigour and linguistic exactitude.'Get over myself? I see that I've made 467 posts on UKPR2, while you're on 2,759. So I think I'm considerably more sparing in sharing my views. As for JimJam, only he can answer as to whether he detected the error in TW's post before I flagged it up. But it's you who presumed, on the basis of no evidence, that he had. One of the aspects of the discussions on this forum that has always fascinated me is the perception that the ROC contributors clearly have of themselves that they are a beleaguered minority, kicking back bravely at a left wing echo chamber and the overall left-leaning groupthink that pervades it. The "you lot on here" sort of description is a regular comment of derision, but is it either statistically or politically true? I suppose if you look at the multiplicity of people who post, then I would imagine there are more LOC contributors than ROC, but surely the volume of posts dictates the tone of any discussion rather than the diversity of potential posters, many of whom only contribute sporadically. I invite anyone to scroll back through a thread and see the content and then judge for themselves the overall political tone. This current one, only 3 days old and 11 pages thus far (300+ posts) in length does enable you to do it before losing the will to live. It strikes me that there are two or three ROC contributors posting a great number of posts, supplemented by a number of other regular posters, Carfrew, johntel, mercian, OldNat and Hireton, to name but a few, who post largely anti-Labour and/or neutral contributions. Another very frequent poster, Danny, posts mainly Covid and Brexit related posts that have no overt left or right political undertones.
So I'm not quite sure where this left wing echo chamber idea comes from, to be honest. In any one page of a thread, numbering 30 posts, I'd say on average about 30% would be overtly ROC and another 30% politically neutral. The number of posters of either ROC or LOC persuasion is subordinate to the actual volume of posts in terms of dictating political tone, surely?Making an equivalence between "LoC" and "Labour" may be something of a conceit of Labour supporters. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 28, 2022 20:49:06 GMT
CH4 reporting on the Tees pollution from dredging story again. They just said there is a plan to expand the operation and dump further out to sea. Which is likely to lead to contamination of European waters as well as british ones. Expect the issue to go international!
Former government scientist interviewed said the area being dredged is the most polluted in the country, and sampling proving this is available in past published reports. Current government scientists say there is no problem. If there was admitted to be a problem, the entire very expensive project might be scuppered. The poisons are such that they would propagate up the food chain, ie to humans eating contaminated fish. Just the sort of scandal the government needs, make a change from the usual.
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Post by crossbat11 on Nov 28, 2022 20:52:10 GMT
One of the aspects of the discussions on this forum that has always fascinated me is the perception that the ROC contributors clearly have of themselves that they are a beleaguered minority, kicking back bravely at a left wing echo chamber and the overall left-leaning groupthink that pervades it. The "you lot on here" sort of description is a regular comment of derision, but is it either statistically or politically true? I suppose if you look at the multiplicity of people who post, then I would imagine there are more LOC contributors than ROC, but surely the volume of posts dictates the tone of any discussion rather than the diversity of potential posters, many of whom only contribute sporadically. I invite anyone to scroll back through a thread and see the content and then judge for themselves the overall political tone. This current one, only 3 days old and 11 pages thus far (300+ posts) in length does enable you to do it before losing the will to live. It strikes me that there are two or three ROC contributors posting a great number of posts, supplemented by a number of other regular posters, Carfrew, johntel, mercian, OldNat and Hireton, to name but a few, who post largely anti-Labour and/or neutral contributions. Another very frequent poster, Danny, posts mainly Covid and Brexit related posts that have no overt left or right political undertones.
So I'm not quite sure where this left wing echo chamber idea comes from, to be honest. In any one page of a thread, numbering 30 posts, I'd say on average about 30% would be overtly ROC and another 30% politically neutral. The number of posters of either ROC or LOC persuasion is subordinate to the actual volume of posts in terms of dictating political tone, surely?Making an equivalence between "LoC" and "Labour" may be something of a conceit of Labour supporters. Maybe, but my point was more about the general prevailing tone of the discussions. It doesn't seem to often be a group of people reinforcing each others monochrome left wing biases. That is often the accusation. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Nov 28, 2022 20:53:02 GMT
The 5th Amendment was approved 2 years after the original constitution. Is it your idea of progress that a state can just make up its constitution as it goes along? You are misrepresenting what I wrote as usual. The Twenty-Seventh Amendment to the USA Constitution was presented to the States for ratification on September 25, 1789 but did not reach the threshold until May 5th 1992. Those Amendments that make up the Bill of Rights were quickly approved, but this one which prevented Congress from voting themselves pay-rises while in office was not. Do you really think it is desirable that individual states can hold up amendments to the constitution? It is notable that the amendments to prohibit slavery (Thirteenth to Fifteenth) were passed in the period just after the Civil War, at a time when the Southern States had not been re-admitted so they were forced to ratify them when they rejoined the Union.
My point was simply a light hearted reference that "pleading the 5th" is only relevant within a particular constitution which is irrelevant in the UK which, unlike almost every other state, has no codified constitution that can be amended.
You do come across as someone whose moniker is the antithesis of your beliefs. |
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