pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,600
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 2, 2022 21:32:47 GMT
Anecdote .....A friend came over for supper this evening. She lives in a small 2 bedroom housing association maisonette. The other half of the house is occupied by a single woman with a 19 year old son. A few months ago this womans eldest son came to live with her following a relationship breakup. The woman gave up her bedroom for her son and slept on the sofa in the living room. Last weekend her married daughter and the daughters husband were evicted from their rented home and turned up needing accommodation. There are now 5 (large) adults living in a very small 2 bedroom maisonette. The married couple are sleeping in the shed in the garden but they all share a mildrew ridden bathroom, a poorly ventilated kitchen and a tiny living room. Tory Chairman Jake Berry MP has some advice for them: "“People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job,” |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,600
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 2, 2022 21:46:54 GMT
I'm watching the Brazilian results come in. It fascinates me that Brazil has managed to have electronic voting for the last 25 years while we still mess around with bits of paper. In consequence although Brazil is a vast country with a huge population we should know the result of their election in a couple of hours.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 2, 2022 21:56:31 GMT
Anecdote .....A friend came over for supper this evening. She lives in a small 2 bedroom housing association maisonette. The other half of the house is occupied by a single woman with a 19 year old son. A few months ago this womans eldest son came to live with her following a relationship breakup. The woman gave up her bedroom for her son and slept on the sofa in the living room. Last weekend her married daughter and the daughters husband were evicted from their rented home and turned up needing accommodation. There are now 5 (large) adults living in a very small 2 bedroom maisonette. The married couple are sleeping in the shed in the garden but they all share a mildrew ridden bathroom, a poorly ventilated kitchen and a tiny living room. Tory Chairman Jake Berry MP has some advice for them: "“People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job,” Norman tebbit used to say that. Here we are, back to the 60/70/80s. |
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Post by peterbell on Oct 2, 2022 22:09:08 GMT
caroline What a shame the workhouses closed down.😁 [banter] That is not banter. It is disgusting. I feel sorry for you if that is the way you think. Fortunately people like yourself seem to be ensuring that politically you are being cast into oblivion. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,600
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 2, 2022 22:09:38 GMT
Brazil - 28% votes counted Bolsonaro leads 47.7% to 43.5% for Lula. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Brazilian elections, but I would say it is looking less likely that either candidate will win outright on the first round.
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Post by mercian on Oct 2, 2022 22:15:32 GMT
caroline What a shame the workhouses closed down.😁 [banter] That is not banter. It is disgusting. I feel sorry for you if that is the way you think. Fortunately people like yourself seem to be ensuring that politically you are being cast into oblivion. Crikey, I don't know how to signal any stronger that it was a joke. You may not have found it funny, but for the way I think I refer you to my earlier reaction to charles question about making sure that the income of the poorest kept up with inflation. I agreed with him. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 2, 2022 22:17:28 GMT
mercian UKIP received the grand total of around 7% of the electorate in the 2009 election just a third of eligible voters participated in the European parliament elections.65% of those who did vote voted for pro European union parties. As I said it simply wasn't seen as relevant as a major issue to the vast majority. Thanks for proving my point.
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Post by mandolinist on Oct 2, 2022 22:23:23 GMT
That is not banter. It is disgusting. I feel sorry for you if that is the way you think. Fortunately people like yourself seem to be ensuring that politically you are being cast into oblivion. Crikey, I don't know how to signal any stronger that it was a joke. You may not have found it funny, but for the way I think I refer you to my earlier reaction to charles question about making sure that the income of the poorest kept up with inflation. I agreed with him. The thing is mercian, it really isn't funny. You can't have it all ways at once. I do actually think that we are very close to destitution and people starving, it isn't something to joke about, it is something to get angry about and to campaign to change. If campaigning isn't your bag, make some charitable donations, I suggest Shelter or your local Law Centre/Citizens Advice. It is shameful that this is the situation we face, but here we are.
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 2, 2022 22:25:37 GMT
The Russian forces in Ukraine have proved to be the biggest single providers of equipment, arms and munitions to the Ukrainian army.
You don't appear to require them when you are running away.
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Post by mercian on Oct 2, 2022 22:34:36 GMT
steveEU elections UKIP vote: 1994 150K 1999 700K 2004 2.6 million (3rd largest) 2009 2.5 million (2nd largest) 2014 4.3 million (largest) 2019 5.2 million (more than Lab+Con combined) Once EU sceptics realised that there was finally a party that represented them the momentum grew. In the 2015 GE UKIP got more votes than LibDems and SNP combined and finished 2nd in over 100 seats. The referendum was inevitable.
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 2, 2022 22:34:50 GMT
The Tories aren't just happy to make all poor people poorer and their mates richer there are individual examples of wankiness as well.
The body of Paul Urey, a British aid volunteer who died after being captured by pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine has been returned to the UK. Urey’s family raised £9,000 to repatriate his body after the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO) said it was unable to pay the transport costs.
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Post by mercian on Oct 2, 2022 22:37:17 GMT
Crikey, I don't know how to signal any stronger that it was a joke. You may not have found it funny, but for the way I think I refer you to my earlier reaction to charles question about making sure that the income of the poorest kept up with inflation. I agreed with him. The thing is mercian , it really isn't funny. You can't have it all ways at once. I do actually think that we are very close to destitution and people starving, it isn't something to joke about, it is something to get angry about and to campaign to change. If campaigning isn't your bag, make some charitable donations, I suggest Shelter or your local Law Centre/Citizens Advice. It is shameful that this is the situation we face, but here we are.
No, it isn't funny to YOU or some others on here. It doesn't mean it isn't funny. As it happens I do regularly give to various charities not that it's any of your business. |
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on Oct 2, 2022 22:41:17 GMT
mercian Thanks for confirming my original point again. It wasn't until around 2014 when the brexitanian lie fest was reaching full tonto that European union membership had a higher profile. I mean it didn't hurt either that of the 20 times British members of the European parliament appeared on question time most of whom supported remaining in the European union that 17 times the m e p the BBC chose was Nigel Farage And the other three were also brexitoids.
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Post by mercian on Oct 2, 2022 22:53:41 GMT
steveThe 2.5 million voters in 2004 and 2009 in the EU elections which have a low turnout was hardly negligible. Indeed, it was more than the difference between Lab and Con in every GE from 2001-2017.
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Post by eor on Oct 2, 2022 23:35:15 GMT
Brazil - 28% votes counted Bolsonaro leads 47.7% to 43.5% for Lula. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Brazilian elections, but I would say it is looking less likely that either candidate will win outright on the first round. Reuters currently have Lula ahead 46.5% to 44.8% with 83% counted - so unless the remaining vote is over twice as good for Lula as Bolsonaro then it looks like another round. No idea if such a margin is plausible in what's left; Lula has been noticeably ahead in the votes tallied in the last half hour or so, but not by as much as that. |
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Post by robbiealive on Oct 2, 2022 23:37:09 GMT
Beware Tory backbenchers bearing promises of rebelling against the leader.
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Oct 2, 2022 23:47:45 GMT
Anent workhouses
They have received a very bad press - often based on Dicken's account in Oliver Twist (which described a workhouse that preceded the English Poor Law Act of 1834) and Chadwick's determination that workhouses should offer a worse environment than poverty in the community.
Those of us who learned about this at school, will know that it was largely motivated by ratepayers in southern English agricultural counties objecting to "outdoor relief" which topped up the meagre agricultural labourer's wages (Step forward Gordon Brown!)
Modern historical research, however, has suggested that for many in the later 19th and early 20th centuries, the workhouse was a welcome relief from poverty, and vulnerable people entered or left it at their own discretion, depending on the economics of their own area. For the elderly, it provided a form of what we would now term sheltered housing.
It was a policy of its time, and evolved as appropriate through subsequent times. Whether the current "Speenhamland System" and its planned sanctions on the poorest is better may be a matter of opinion!
School history may not be the best basis for making judgments!
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Post by eor on Oct 2, 2022 23:56:54 GMT
Indeed Robbie - someone grabbing a microphone today to say they'd have to seriously consider not supporting measure x can find plenty of ways to weasel out, not least if there isn't an explicit vote on x alone, leaves them entirely free to vote for the overall package that happens to include x.
I don't have numbers but my recollection was those who voted against Johnson in this Commons were usually a small shred of those being cited as rebels in advance.
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Oct 3, 2022 0:08:27 GMT
Always good to see a climb down from arrogant politicians - if it happens ....
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Post by RAF on Oct 3, 2022 0:14:54 GMT
Always good to see a climb down from arrogant politicians - if it happens .... Hubris (before the event crystallises) is always welcome. |
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Post by ptarmigan on Oct 3, 2022 1:21:39 GMT
1. The italicised phrase in my screed was not my finest hour but it was 1.45 & I had to do Wordle (3/6). Labour members choosing a leader have a duty to select not just the leader they want but one who millions of Labour and uncommitted voters will support, non-member voters that they represent. If they dont understand that they should abstain. Who was happiest to see Corbyn elected. The Tory High Command. 2. Of course Labour MPs are a small pool in OMOV. But they also represent XXMillion Labour voters. Some of them do have some idea what the voters want. The notion they are in a bubble & the members have their finger on the pulse is debateable. Did MPs or members really grasp what Brexit Labour voters in Stoke, Rochdale, or Redvar wanted? (Corbyn's insight was to understand the Red Wall Labour Leavers more than most). As Moby said above there are good grounds for giving MPs more weight in the choice on the delegate principle. 3. The Party was more or less united until the EU REf. Corbyn was useless. I remember him on Marr, inspecting his finger nails for invisible atoms of reformist impurity, mumbling about 7 out of 10 for the EU, like a dessicated Prof of Social Policy. The point of yr comment 2 above his supposedly lukewarm support of Remain should have been a boon to the campaign. eldues me. If he didnt support Remain, which was Party Policy, then he should have stood aside. Brown in a 5 minute speech did more to rally the Remain vote than Corbyn in weeks. Leaders have to earn their spurs and lead and he failed: hence the maladroit coup which cost us a lot. When Cameron resigned and told Corbyn to do the same, I was with Cameron! 4. I voted for Starmer knowing that he would renege on much of what he said. So did X000s of other members. The people who complain about him are the ROCs and the diffident LOCs. I didn't want Long Bailey and more of the same. He has done his job: held on, not made any gross errors, much harder than it looks: time will tell. I don't automatically share the numerous prefictions on here that Labour have it in the bag or that we can carve up the seat share. Finally. Corbyn was the wrong choice. I'm old: 5 years of Corbyn were wasted years for me. Membership democracy made the wrong choise. I want a system that makes the right one. 1. It's worth contextualising his leadership win I think. We'd been through five years of austerity with a Tory/Lib Dem coalition government and ever since the financial crash Labour had failed to offer a compelling alternative vision for the country. What's worse is that they meekly let the Tories set the political agenda and failed to properly challenge the hugely damaging narrative that Labour were reckless with the economy when in power. Cooper and Burham are very capable politicians but their pitches in 2015 were very uninspiring. Labour looked directionless and like a party in search of an identity and Corbyn provided that. Yes, it didn't work out and yes, electability should obviously be an important consideration when selecting a leader, but if no one looks a surefire winner, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to pick the candidate whose vision for the party and country is at least somewhat attractive and aligns with your own. 2. Fair enough - happy to concede it's a debatable point. That said, whilst I'm not necessarily wedded to the particular systems that the main political parties use to select their leaders, I still tend towards the opinion that, for the reasons I outlined on the other thread yesterday, I'd be a little wary of diluting the existing power members have to choose a leader. I did read the article Moby linked to and, whilst Kinnock makes some reasonable observations, I note that this was prior to Corbyn being tested in a General Election. In 2017 he greatly increased Labour's share of the vote despite Kinnock's characterisation of him as an no hoper who enjoyed little support within the PLP. 3. I obviously share your view on the folly of Brexit but I think we diverge a bit in terms of culpability. The Remain campaign was crap and obviously Corbyn, as Labour Party leader, shares responsibility for that. However, you say that Corbyn understood the Red Wall Labour Leavers more than most - given this, was his 7/10 verdict really so terrible? Was he not merely reflecting what a lot of people felt about the EU? Most of the political establishment was advocating Remain and yet the referendum result revealed that there were a lot of voters in "left behind" communities that felt neglected and opted for Brexit - a lot of these places were traditional Labour heartlands but had been drifting away from the party some time before the referendum. I'm not sure I'm convinced that Corbyn being a more enthusiastic proponent of Remain would have swayed these voters and made any significant difference. Fair comment on that italicised quote of mine - it eludes me too really! I was quite weary myself at that hour... 4. What I will say about Starmer is that, despite my criticisms, he did a pretty reasonable job at Conference last week and there was actually some decent policy. He could yet end up surprising me. I wonder whether we'd have got some of this policy (eg publicly owned energy company, rail renationalisation) if it hadn't been for the Corbyn era. Perhaps, perhaps not. Even though it ended in failure, a lot of individual policies were popular with voters and I tend to think the fact they got a proper airing could lay the groundwork for the party to pursue more progressive policies should it wish to. I hope they do, and if such policies make it into a manifesto and they're elected on such a platform that will ultimately be to everyone's benefit. |
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Post by ptarmigan on Oct 3, 2022 1:33:33 GMT
No outright winner in Brazil, so it'll go to a runoff. Lula 48% vs Bolsonaro's 43%. The latter seems to have outperformed expectations, sadly.
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Oct 3, 2022 4:37:39 GMT
caroline What a shame the workhouses closed down.😁 [banter] While I'm all in favour of encouraging people to use libraries, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of them effectively being turned into refugee camps for people who can't afford heating in the winter. This was being widely floated a few weeks ago. Turning libraries into workhouses. And when funding runs out for libraries to keep the lights and heating on, I hope you'll entertain us with another joke about burning books for warmth, just like the good old days. [banter] |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Oct 3, 2022 5:18:47 GMT
Official, the plan to cut the top rate of tax by 5% has been scrapped.
Right decision, but the tax cut should never have happened in the first place, or having done it u turned much earlier and not keep saying they wouldn't
Makes them look weak. The lady's for turning
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 3, 2022 5:47:09 GMT
ptarmigan No expert on Brazilian politics but I would assume that the 7% that voted for other centre/left candidates are likely to support Lula da Silva now.
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neilj
Member
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Post by neilj on Oct 3, 2022 5:54:37 GMT
Meanwhile universal credit will not be upgraded with inflation. Levelling down
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 3, 2022 5:57:49 GMT
Reversing the 45% tax cut less than 24 hours after Poundland Thatcher had said in answer to a question as to whether she was 100% in support of it :"Yes. And it is part, Laura, it is part of an overall package of making our tax system simpler and lower."
It's great to have such a determined and confident dear leader prepared to maintain their position for nearly 24 hours.
I suspect any benefit achieved by reversing a disastrous callous money grab for millionaires will be non existent for the regime.
Presumably Kwarteng will get the boot if not are they going to say a bigger boy made him do it?
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 3, 2022 5:59:04 GMT
Looks like the regime intends to punish the poor because they can't get to enrich the richest.
It just gets worse and worse.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 3, 2022 6:00:32 GMT
Why does having a single currency work for the USA; simply because the proportion of the total tax collected at the Federal level is sufficient to redistribute to the poorer states (although being the USA there is a lot of pork-barrel politics involved). The EU's problem was (and still is) that its income was too small a part of the total economy to do this (and a large part of it was going to the Eastern states to bring them back up to Western standards after more than half a century of Communism). This argument would seem to be quite general and apply to smaller nations like Britain too. If the central authority refuses to redistribute enough from the wealthy to the poor, then the state is liable to collapse. The problem for those who believe the state should not intervene, is that most people expect it to intervene. Hence ever growing state budgets and tax take. Pretty much an inevitable consequence of the state developing to be richer and its citizens expecting more. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 3, 2022 6:08:45 GMT
Nice to see government business being conducted by Sun editor tweet!
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