neilj
Member
Posts: 6,572
|
Post by neilj on Sept 2, 2022 11:52:59 GMT
All going in the right direction
|
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 11:58:34 GMT
Totally unprincipled as Johnson has no principles. Nothing wrong with Corbyn's principles, it was his lack of leadership and inablity to communicate effectively that was wrong with him I would just add to this that imo he was a cypher for entryists whose agenda was different to that of the party I was a member of. People who tried to reclaim the party for the left after the right wing entryists had taken it over and tried to turn it towards the US right wing Third Way stuff. (And who keep trying to get rid of the left). Recall Syzygy saying on the old board how the the arrival of the Blairites was like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers or summat. Anyway Moby, talking of plans, what’s your plan? If Starmer doesn’t do enough to reverse house prices and casualisation of labour and piss-taking utilities is that ok? Are you ok with Starmer’s about turns? Do you like the LibDem prospectus? Why do you prefer Labour’s? |
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Sept 2, 2022 12:05:40 GMT
Completely off topic...it would seem that 'Delicious' by 90's indie/new wave duo, Shampoo is everywhere at the moment, both in it's original form and a cover version.
How on earth did this happen?
|
|
|
|
Post by moby on Sept 2, 2022 12:12:36 GMT
I grew up in a two parent family with a violent father and a mother who was trapped and helpless and would use her children to save herself. (by telling tales on us to my dad so that his anger would be vented on us and not her.) To outsiders our family would have looked normal. My parents were hard working and responsible. My dad wanted us to do well and have careers. We were well fed and clothed, parents attended parents evenings etc. We went on holidays. We had toys and trips out. Our misery was inside the home, subject to daily unpredictable and uncontrollable outbursts of anger and violence from my dad interspersed with normal behaviour and you never new how long that would last - and indifference from my mum who had given up I think. Like living on a volcano. I assure you a single parent who was calm, stable and loving would have been a lot better for me and my sister. Sorry to hear that. It must have been awful. I don't know if you have read the report?. Asian families have a very low level of absent fathers. Do you think that leads to a higher level of violence from those fathers in the home ? The report contains masses of data on families and Dame Rachel de Souza's conclusions about the importance of "family" seems clear. I don't really understand the leap of logic from your single and awful experience to the nation and its children at large. The problem we have here is the importance of 'family' is such a general statement as to be practically meaningless. For instance Asian families may have a very low level of absent fathers for cultural reasons; marriage in an Asian family is often an arranged economic contract binding two families together in business interests and property. Those living in western family set ups or Carribean family set ups would see the meaning of 'family' very differently. There is no shared assumption as to what the ideal 'family' is or should be. It is far better to look at relationships and the distribution of power and influence within them. For example....whatever the set up of the family....do its members feel safe? do they feel protected? do they have autonomy? This has nothing to do with whether it is 'traditional' or not; it is to do with whether we have pro social attitudes and relationships, are the interests of family members valued? etc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:16:07 GMT
colin - thank you for your lesson in how to post excerpts and what to say about them. As somerjohn says - I expect you to post entire articles in future. In your agitation, you forgot to look at the context I added to my post, where I said - "Build nuclear which won't start generating until 2035, and buy a new kettle." So thanks, yes I know Johnson was trying to project some newfound in site into energy policy needs, but as you put it previously, what the F is that going to do for people with £5,000 energy bills this winter? The bottom line though is how funny it is watching a waste of skin like Johnson make claims about long term planning. And that there are, apparently, still some posters who actually believe a word he says. I didn't really understand that quote from your post. I agree -as I said- that Johnson messed up hos metaphor-one which was bound to be exploited. When I post selections from articles , I always say so and cite the source. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:18:39 GMT
Asian families have a very low level of absent fathers. Do you think that leads to a higher level of violence from those fathers in the home ? It certainly makes it much harder for abused women (and children) to escape when violence occurs. of course, but I hope there is no suggestion that abandoned wives would be better of in general , because their departed husbands would beat them up. That would be to put fatherhood in a very unpleasant straight jacket. It wouldn't help the children at all. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:21:21 GMT
it is to do with whether we have pro social attitudes and relationships, are the interests of family members valued? etc. I think the Childrens' Commissioner for England thinks it is "to do with" the security, wellbeing and life chances of the children. |
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Sept 2, 2022 12:25:47 GMT
Really Colin! Its all women's fault. Women should just put up with men being crap - if only women weren't so selfish and did what they were supposed to do, having kids, looking after them, doing the housework etc. Its not the 1950's you know. What a typical knee jerk response. Without even asking you make an assumption that I meant it was "womens'" fault. Your prejudices are on show I'm afraid. What I meant is that to the extent that absent fathers are an ethno /cultural phenomenon-as the Childrens' Commissioner's Report reveals- then the strong , caring women in those families who stay and care for their children, including sons, can surely play a pivotal part in the education of young men about their family responsibilities.
I for one put zero credibility in a report from such a blatant Tory placement as de Souza, of whom Gove said his “ideal education policy would be to clone Rachel 23,000 times”.
You also seem to think an issue with men (in this case being absent) is the responsibility of women to solve - what women who have been left in the lurch or had to escape an abusive relationship is resources/support not moral lecturing's from right wing ideologues who cling to some form of classification of women into selfless saints or wanton, evil lost women. Perhaps if society was not so indulgent of male attitudes and actions and started viewing women as complete human beings we would get somewhere. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Sept 2, 2022 12:26:35 GMT
fullfact.org/economy/labour-inequality-1997-2010/That's actually pretty good imo and has to be seen in the context of what is realistic in a socially conservative country which has a dominant right of centre party which is usually in Govmt. If you wish to emphasis the fact that inequality still increases and that is not a good enough record.....show us your plan @carefrew; show us how a more equal society is electorally possible in Britain? Haha, yesterday I said a plan was problematic, and now you’re asking me for a plan! Putting a plan together is difficult, in part because of media opposition, in part because of the takeover of the right in the party. And in part because of past actions to try and get the public to buy info right wing stuff, e.g. house price inflation. If you consider the main pillars, like full employment, affordable utilities, housing etc., then they can all receive opposition by vested interests. Housing is especially problematic as a lot of people benefit from inflated house prices, though homeownership is falling (Trade arrangements can also lock out left wing actions but currently these things are perhaps being relaxed a bit) But creating more and better jobs might not achieve much resistance, especially if not in big state employers. Probably wouldn’t get much resistance to a state player in the energy market. Polling suggests even a lot of Tories would be ok with more affordable housing. One would imagine Starmer might do at least a bit on job creation and house building? The question really is whether he would do enough to reverse the overall trend towards greater struggle. Polling shows even Tories are more accepting of more affordable house building now. Another aspect, is bypassing the media. The decline of the unions has diminished an alternative avenue to get the alternative message out. They might develop their own media channels but I think Labour might benefit from developing other organisations to involve people to do useful stuff while giving them the chance to get some info. Times are also changing. Home ownership declining. Labour to the right of the public on nationalisations since the recent change and the Guardian are also now in favour. More middle class jobs are becoming casualised. Even the Tories have been dragged leftward in some ways. As have the EU, so I think things will shift anyway. Question is how far how quickly. So, it is partly about how much can you do without frightening too many horses, and how much you can do to communicate while bypassing the horses. I think Blair’s son’s approach of focusing on apprenticeships is interesting - he’s also getting powers to provide degrees too now which makes it more interesting, though haven’t had a chance to have a better look at it. I think it’s something else Labour could do a lot more of. Any plan is a compromise but the question is can the 'left' agree to stick together long enough to get into power to change some of the things you hope for. I think that is as much as any of us can hope for. My problem with Corbyn wasn't his plan; in many ways it was a good plan; he was never going to get a chance to implement it though. For whatever reason, (we can argue all day about that I know) he was unelectable to large swathes of the British public. Starmers numbers look more promising to me. I'm happy to go with that and I'm not going to worry about betrayal on policy etc. There's too much at stake. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:30:35 GMT
I'm amused by the Janus like qualities of the "1950s " On the one hand they are the golden era , before rapacious Thatcherite Toryism , when the Tory Party & the Government was run by two benign aristocrats who practiced the Post War Consensus. On the other hand they are shorthand for Misogynistic Little Englanders , steeped in the myths of Empire and biffing the Bosh.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:31:57 GMT
Crofty: "I hope that isn’t aimed at colin as that seems very unfair."Your irony doesn't escape me, but to take your point at face value: no, my comment wasn't about Colin, whose current (or maybe well-established) dyspepsia is I think based on a more thought-through despair at how the wheels seem to be coming off all the cherished free-market, low tax, small-government, sound-money nostrums that he has long championed here. It can't be a comfortable experience. Dunno why you found it ironic. As far as I was aware Colin developed the topic with a few quotes but I don’t think your previous post was in any way applicable to him or his motivation so genuinely seemed unfair. Anyway, you cleared that up and it wasn’t. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Sept 2, 2022 12:34:16 GMT
I would just add to this that imo he was a cypher for entryists whose agenda was different to that of the party I was a member of. People who tried to reclaim the party for the left after the right wing entryists had taken it over and tried to turn it towards the US right wing Third Way stuff. (And who keep trying to get rid of the left). Recall Syzygy saying on the old board how the the arrival of the Blairites was like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers or summat. Anyway Moby, talking of plans, what’s your plan? If Starmer doesn’t do enough to reverse house prices and casualisation of labour and piss-taking utilities is that ok? Are you ok with Starmer’s about turns? Do you like the LibDem prospectus? Why do you prefer Labour’s? I see Labour as a parliamentary based party designed to form govmts. The right v left narrative is a red herring, irrelevant to the pursuit of power. Corbyn was a campaigner who got the leadership by mistake. If he had been electable, if he had been competent, if he had been able to lead a competent shadow cabinet that seemed electable, I would have been as happy as larry. In Britain at this time it was never going to happen. |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,572
|
Post by neilj on Sept 2, 2022 12:35:16 GMT
In relation to division within political parties found this poll interesting, the tories are seen as more divided than Labour
|
|
alurqa
Member
Freiburg im Breisgau's flag
Posts: 781
|
Post by alurqa on Sept 2, 2022 12:35:22 GMT
Poorer societies do did have v high birth rates but they also have had 50% infant n child motality, say, which is why their populations grow grew slowly. No longer. Your view is decades out of date. Virtually the whole world[1] is now on the low birthrate path. When the 11 billion peak die off, we will desperately need more kids. Luckily West Africa is the one place that is bucking the trend. Nigeria's population is ballooning. They will inherit the earth. :-)
[1] Even places like Bangladesh:
Most of the world is below replacement rate. See my post about educating women. :-) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:35:40 GMT
.
You also seem to think an issue with men (in this case being absent) is the responsibility of women to solve - what women who have been left in the lurch or had to escape an abusive relationship is resources/support not moral lecturing's from right wing ideologues who cling to some form of classification of women into selfless saints or wanton, evil lost women. Perhaps if society was not so indulgent of male attitudes and actions and started viewing women as complete human beings we would get somewhere. No I dont think that. But then you have no idea what I mean or think, being intent on deciding it yourself. I'm happy to leave you to your prejudices and judgements. By the way no need to apologise for them by being "afraid" that you have them. |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 12:35:46 GMT
Haha, yesterday I said a plan was problematic, and now you’re asking me for a plan! Putting a plan together is difficult, in part because of media opposition, in part because of the takeover of the right in the party. And in part because of past actions to try and get the public to buy info right wing stuff, e.g. house price inflation. If you consider the main pillars, like full employment, affordable utilities, housing etc., then they can all receive opposition by vested interests. Housing is especially problematic as a lot of people benefit from inflated house prices, though homeownership is falling (Trade arrangements can also lock out left wing actions but currently these things are perhaps being relaxed a bit) But creating more and better jobs might not achieve much resistance, especially if not in big state employers. Probably wouldn’t get much resistance to a state player in the energy market. Polling suggests even a lot of Tories would be ok with more affordable housing. One would imagine Starmer might do at least a bit on job creation and house building? The question really is whether he would do enough to reverse the overall trend towards greater struggle. Polling shows even Tories are more accepting of more affordable house building now. Another aspect, is bypassing the media… Any plan is a compromise but the question is can the 'left' agree to stick together long enough to get into power to change some of the things you hope for. I think that is as much as any of us can hope for. My problem with Corbyn wasn't his plan; in many ways it was a good plan; he was never going to get a chance to implement it though. For whatever reason though, (we can argue all day about that I know) he was unelectable to large swathes of the British public. Starmers numbers look more promising to me. I'm happy to go with that and I'm not going to worry about betrayal on policy etc. There's too much at stake. Ah, so the classic right wing prescription: just focus on getting in power and maybe Starmer will move left enough. Despite that he’s been moving right. Maybe like Blair he will chuck some other right wing stuff like ATOS too. And greater funding will be conditional on handing more to the private sector? What have you seen so far to make you sure that moving left will happen as opposed to letting house prices rise, jobs be more causualised, more stuff sold off, utilities won’t continue to take the mick? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:37:47 GMT
Crofty: "I hope that isn’t aimed at colin as that seems very unfair."Your irony doesn't escape me, but to take your point at face value: no, my comment wasn't about Colin, whose current (or maybe well-established) dyspepsia is I think based on a more thought-through despair at how the wheels seem to be coming off all the cherished free-market, low tax, small-government, sound-money nostrums that he has long championed here. It can't be a comfortable experience. Dunno why you found it ironic. As far as I was aware Colin developed the topic with a few quotes but I don’t think your previous post was in any way applicable to him or his motivation so genuinely seemed unfair. Anyway, you cleared that up and it wasn’t. Thank you. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:40:21 GMT
Any plan is a compromise but the question is can the 'left' agree to stick together long enough to get into power to change some of the things you hope for. I think that is as much as any of us can hope for. My problem with Corbyn wasn't his plan; in many ways it was a good plan; he was never going to get a chance to implement it though. For whatever reason though, (we can argue all day about that I know) he was unelectable to large swathes of the British public. Starmers numbers look more promising to me. I'm happy to go with that and I'm not going to worry about betrayal on policy etc. There's too much at stake. Ah, so the classic right wing prescription: just focus on getting in power and say that actually Starmer will move left enough. Despite the fact he’s been moving right. Maybe like Blair he will chuck some other right wing stuff like ATOS too. And greater funding will be conditional on handing more to the private sector? What have you seen so far to make you sure that moving left will happen as opposed to letting house prices rise, jobs be more causualised, utilities won’t continue to take the mick? I think the risk is what happened in Scotland - Labour will get the anybody but Tory left wing vote until they all suddenly switch to say the Greens. Then Blair's triangulation will have become a death march for the Party. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Sept 2, 2022 12:40:40 GMT
it is to do with whether we have pro social attitudes and relationships, are the interests of family members valued? etc. I think the Childrens' Commissioner for England thinks it is "to do with" the security, wellbeing and life chances of the children. Don't we all though. Every Social Worker in the country would agree with those objectives. If we all had happy marriages and felt valued in relationships, our children would benefit from that. Do you think tory economic policies enhance those objectives? |
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on Sept 2, 2022 12:42:25 GMT
Steve - thanks for sharing the below:
My immediate reaction was surprise Labour are not further ahead on the economy followed by a realisation that this 1% lead on the Economy is when they are around 10% or more ahead in VI.
As such best for the economy with these numbers is a drag on VI.
The implication is that net of churn 4 or 5 people in 10 would say Tory if just on the economy but are saying Labour; not positive for Labour.
''Aug 31
The last Labour lead on the economy was May 2008:
Lab: 31.0%
Con: 30.9%
Today we have it at...
Lab: 33.1%
Con: 32.2%
But the Don't Knows are at 34.7%.''
|
|
|
|
Post by moby on Sept 2, 2022 12:46:48 GMT
Any plan is a compromise but the question is can the 'left' agree to stick together long enough to get into power to change some of the things you hope for. I think that is as much as any of us can hope for. My problem with Corbyn wasn't his plan; in many ways it was a good plan; he was never going to get a chance to implement it though. For whatever reason though, (we can argue all day about that I know) he was unelectable to large swathes of the British public. Starmers numbers look more promising to me. I'm happy to go with that and I'm not going to worry about betrayal on policy etc. There's too much at stake. Ah, so the classic right wing prescription: just focus on getting in power and maybe Starmer will move left enough. Despite that he’s been moving right. Maybe like Blair he will chuck some other right wing stuff like ATOS too. And greater funding will be conditional on handing more to the private sector? What have you seen so far to make you sure that moving left will happen as opposed to letting house prices rise, jobs be more causualised, utilities won’t continue to take the mick? Neither you or I can predict the future and how it will pan out and it's pointless speculating because that's all we are doing. Lets just get the tories out and then we'll argue about how far left we go! |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 12:48:27 GMT
Ah, so the classic right wing prescription: just focus on getting in power and say that actually Starmer will move left enough. Despite the fact he’s been moving right. Maybe like Blair he will chuck some other right wing stuff like ATOS too. And greater funding will be conditional on handing more to the private sector? What have you seen so far to make you sure that moving left will happen as opposed to letting house prices rise, jobs be more causualised, utilities won’t continue to take the mick? I think the risk is what happened in Scotland - Labour will get the anybody but Tory left wing vote until they all suddenly switch to say the Greens. Then Blair's triangulation will have become a death march for the Party. Yes, his approach already played a part in Brexit. And note how they say it’s about the left sticking together… the left in the party didn’t do much to sabotage Blair. They are not doing much to sabotage Starmer. It is the way the right sabotage Corbyn, and are even to the right of most Tories now on nationalisation that shows they don’t really want a left wing prospectus, or even the more centrist of Corbyn’s policies. There is very little interest in properly sorting house prices or employment either. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,766
|
Post by steve on Sept 2, 2022 12:48:33 GMT
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,572
|
Post by neilj on Sept 2, 2022 12:52:20 GMT
Steve - thanks for sharing the below: My immediate reaction was surprise Labour are not further ahead on the economy followed by a realisation that this 1% lead on the Economy is when they are around 10% or more ahead in VI. As such best for the economy with these numbers is a drag on VI. The implication is that net of churn 4 or 5 people in 10 would say Tory if just on the economy but are saying Labour; not positive for Labour. ''Aug 31 The last Labour lead on the economy was May 2008: Lab: 31.0% Con: 30.9% Today we have it at... Lab: 33.1% Con: 32.2% But the Don't Knows are at 34.7%.'' You would expect Labour to lead on the NHS, Education etc but Labour are normally behind on the economy and quite often by a long way, they have in effect parked their tanks on the tory lawn. Tis is good news for Labour as it neutralises the main selling point for the Conservatives |
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Sept 2, 2022 12:58:26 GMT
I grew up in a two parent family with a violent father and a mother who was trapped and helpless and would use her children to save herself. (by telling tales on us to my dad so that his anger would be vented on us and not her.) To outsiders our family would have looked normal. My parents were hard working and responsible. My dad wanted us to do well and have careers. We were well fed and clothed, parents attended parents evenings etc. We went on holidays. We had toys and trips out. Our misery was inside the home, subject to daily unpredictable and uncontrollable outbursts of anger and violence from my dad interspersed with normal behaviour and you never new how long that would last - and indifference from my mum who had given up I think. Like living on a volcano. I assure you a single parent who was calm, stable and loving would have been a lot better for me and my sister. Sorry to hear that. It must have been awful. I don't know if you have read the report?. Asian families have a very low level of absent fathers. Do you think that leads to a higher level of violence from those fathers in the home ? The report contains masses of data on families and Dame Rachel de Souza's conclusions about the importance of "family" seems clear. I don't really understand the leap of logic from your single and awful experience to the nation and its children at large. I wasn't. I was answering any assumption, spoken or implied that two parent families are better. What's best is a stable loving environment whoever provides it. Also family life in quite a few strict Muslim families is pretty miserable for the wife and female children who are subservient to the men in the family. They would have a better experience in a family led by a stable living single mother. Two parent familiesare often overrated. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:05:00 GMT
I think the Childrens' Commissioner for England thinks it is "to do with" the security, wellbeing and life chances of the children. . Every Social Worker in the country would agree with those objectives. If we all had happy marriages and felt valued in relationships, our children would benefit from that. Do you think tory economic policies enhance those objectives? *Evidently not in the large number of households where the fathers abandoned their children. * No I don't think any governments policies have helped. Otherwise the proportion of children who have spent "some time" in a single parent family wouldn't have doubled to 41% in the last 50 years.Otherwise 23 per cent of the 8.2 million families with children in the UK, wouldn't be headed by a lone parent- 90 per cent of such parents being women. Otherwise 49 per cent of children in lone-parent families wouldn't be in relative poverty after housing costs compared with 25 per cent of children living in married or cohabiting families. etc etc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:06:48 GMT
Sorry to hear that. It must have been awful. I don't know if you have read the report?. Asian families have a very low level of absent fathers. Do you think that leads to a higher level of violence from those fathers in the home ? The report contains masses of data on families and Dame Rachel de Souza's conclusions about the importance of "family" seems clear. I don't really understand the leap of logic from your single and awful experience to the nation and its children at large. I wasn't. I was answering any assumption, spoken or implied that two parent families are better. What's best is a stable loving environment whoever provides it. Also family life in quite a few strict Muslim families is pretty miserable for the wife and female children who are subservient to the men in the family. They would have a better experience in a family led by a stable living single mother. Two parent familiesare often overrated. Fair enough-I get why you hold that opinion. But we are talking about a somewhat larger sample-England. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:09:12 GMT
Don't we all though. Every Social Worker in the country would agree with those objectives. If we all had happy marriages and felt valued in relationships, our children would benefit from that. Do you think tory economic policies enhance those objectives? *Evidently not in the large number of households where the fathers abandoned their children. * No I don't think any governments policies have helped. Otherwise the proportion of children who have spent "some time" in a single parent family wouldn't have doubled to 41% in the last 50 years.Otherwise 23 per cent of the 8.2 million families with children in the UK, wouldn't be headed by a lone parent- 90 per cent of such parents being women. Otherwise 49 per cent of children in lone-parent families wouldn't be in relative poverty after housing costs compared with 25 per cent of children living in married or cohabiting families. etc etc. SPONSORED Could it have anything to do with the miserly amount of money single parents get from the state? I'm sure well-off single parents' kids life chances are pretty good. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 13:12:35 GMT
Danny While restoring freedom of movement would potentially solve some of the Labour shortages .But it isn't immigration which implies permanent relocation it's just the ability to work, study and live anywhere within the European union and eea , subject to the ability to support yourself. The small number of European union citizens while we remained in the European union who chose to remain permanently in the UK particularly after retirement is a clear indication of the difference. It's exactly the same as moving to London to work but choosing to leave and retire or bring up a family elsewhere in England. No one would seriously describe such people as immigrants or their choice to move freely from place to place as immigration. You've never been to North Wales then? 😁 |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 13:14:23 GMT
Something which hasn't received much attention during the Tory leadership camapaign is the fall in the value of the £. This morning trading at £1.16 against the US dollar. Good news for exporters e.g. Scotch whisky (or whiskey, I've already forgotten oldnat's definition). |
|
