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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 27, 2022 8:08:00 GMT
CB, I was at Old Trafford Yesterday and never heard that sung. Doesn't mean it wasn't of course but if it was it may have been just a few bods and only a few times. I expect you're right. If it had been widespread chanting then we would probably have heard more of it on the news. Cricket crowds chanting obscenities about Tory Governments is a bit of a long shot, I have to say! I will ask my youngest son who was at OT too yesterday. There's a thought. It might have been just him and his mate singing it, desperately hoping to get everyone at it in unison. A Mexican Wave that died out quickly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 8:42:20 GMT
The political context is that Labour have to lower the fear factors for disillusioned Tories so they don't turnout in large numbers to keep Labour out. (In simple terms limit the AB Lab vote). My energy contract runs to Jan 18 . I worked out yesterday that the Oct 1 capped tariff will leave me owing around £800 at end contract with current dds. That will be substantially covered by the state support I will get. My new contract -I read in the Times this morning -is likely to be over £5k pa , rising to £7k from April. This is like reading that from next year I can continue to breath , provided I purchase my own oxygen. Those numbers would mean a serious rejig of my domestic budget and undoubtedly require draw down of savings to support. Times reports that 2.2 m people will run out of their savings by 2024, and that double digit inflation will last till September 2023. Ofgem says high energy costs are "here to stay". Interest rates -ergo mortgage rates-could be up 2.5% to 4.25 % by May -when LA elections will be held in England & NI. This nightmare world will start in October when energy companies start increasing direct debits. Through the winter it will squeeze the life ( literally according to Martin Lewis !) out of many many families, and pensioners. There are no reports ,as yet, about the effect on other energy users-small companies, child care providers,libraries, village halls..... Is it too extreme to imagine a nation in social lockdown this winter ?. Only to emerge blinking into the spring sunlight to be hit again by Ofgem in April. Will Truss have policies appropriate to this situation? If she doesn't -and she isn't trying to persuade anyone that she has-the May election results are likely to demonstrate to her where she is going wrong. By which time @jim garner ,without wishing to massage your nascent optimism, I wonder if there will be an ABL vote. Millions of people will be desperately seeking any politician who sounds human and offers help . Corbyn would win under these circumstances. They were singing his name at the Test Match yesterday.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 27, 2022 8:54:59 GMT
colin. I do not in any way wish to minimise the position you will be in by January, but those of us with any savings are the lucky ones here. I had other plans for my very modest pot, but it will be swallowed up over the winter. Others have no cushion at all and will be destitute before winter is over. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 8:56:10 GMT
Others have no cushion at all and will be destitute before winter is over. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect. Yes-I think I just said so. Which was the point of my post.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 27, 2022 8:58:01 GMT
Others have no cushion at all and will be destitute before winter is over. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect. Yes-I think I said so. Yes you did, sorry, I was trying to double the emphasis and it just read as dismissive, not my intention at all.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 27, 2022 8:59:11 GMT
colin
So, it wasn't the crowd at Old Trafford inviting the Tories to go forth and multiply, they were instead invoking the spirit of Old Jezza, a la Glastonbury. That's a turn up for the books I have to say and, if true, likely to endanger Old Trafford's Test venue status into the future. The ECB will take a dim view of such heresy.
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Post by shevii on Aug 27, 2022 9:36:04 GMT
The political context is that Labour have to lower the fear factors for disillusioned Tories so they don't turnout in large numbers to keep Labour out. (In simple terms limit the AB Lab vote). Is it too extreme to imagine a nation in social lockdown this winter ?. Only to emerge blinking into the spring sunlight to be hit again by Ofgem in April. Will Truss have policies appropriate to this situation? If she doesn't -and she isn't trying to persuade anyone that she has-the May election results are likely to demonstrate to her where she is going wrong. By which time @jim garner ,without wishing to massage your nascent optimism, I wonder if there will be an ABL vote. Millions of people will be desperately seeking any politician who sounds human and offers help . Corbyn would win under these circumstances. They were singing his name at the Test Match yesterday. I think New New Labour will still be home and dry regardless of how many people don't see them fixing their problems as the ABT would be so high and "can't be any worse" comes into play. Labour are where they need to be at the moment with a policy that simply says bills won't go up in October. It doesn't matter that there are gaps in their costings or that this is a temporary 6 month fix or that they do not have policy to fix this permanently- the difference (unless Truss comes up with something) is very simple that under the Tories your energy bills will go up 80% while under Labour they will go up zero percent. Also Labour and Lib Dems are engaged in this. As you say, Truss as yet has given no indication she regards this as serious and if she doesn't deliver within the first two weeks of her premiership then I think she is done for permanently. Increasingly she also needs to deliver for business energy as well otherwise the economy will be sliding. I definitely think Labour need something more radical on energy and without this they will have issues on turnout and people voting for minor parties but will still have enough voters to get them over the line. I'm better placed than most people as I've watched all the seasons of The Walking Dead...
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Post by hireton on Aug 27, 2022 9:37:50 GMT
colin"Willl Truss have policies appropriate to this situation? If she doesn't -and she isn't trying to persuade anyone that she has-the May election results are likely to demonstrate to her where she is going wrong." It is notable that Truss and her camapaign team have not realised the substantive importance, political salience and urgency of this issue. The FT reported that she and her team plan that the first 3 months of her premiership will focus on dealing with the cost of living crisis and 2023 will be the year of delivery leading to victory in a 2024 GE. It seems they have no concept of what they are and will be dealing with.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Aug 27, 2022 9:46:54 GMT
colin So, it wasn't the crowd at Old Trafford inviting the Tories to go forth and multiply, they were instead invoking the spirit of Old Jezza, a la Glastonbury. That's a turn up for the books I have to say and, if true, likely to endanger Old Trafford's Test venue status into the future. The ECB will take a dim view of such heresy. I actually quite like Cricket as a spectator sport but I've always tended to avoid it for those reasons, the stifling sense of conservatism and particular kind of Englishness surrounding it that I've never got on with.
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Aug 27, 2022 9:58:13 GMT
colin. I do not in any way wish to minimise the position you will be in by January, but those of us with any savings are the lucky ones here. I had other plans for my very modest pot, but it will be swallowed up over the winter. Others have no cushion at all and will be destitute before winter is over. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect. We are in precisely that position. And, to put things in perspective in case anyone thinks I'm soliciting sympathy, compared to roughly, I'd guess, a quarter to a third of the population, we are somewhere on a scale of fortunate to very fortunate indeed. At the end of the month, we usually - as long as nothing breaks or needs replacing - have about £300 left after food and bills. Our boiler just packed up, so that takes care of everything we've ferreted away and can scrape together now. Prior to that, almost everything left was going to repay my mother for the money she lent us when the roof needed replacing last year. We already switch off everything on standby and live in jumpers during winter and eat frugally with almost no waste. Unless Truss performs the screeching U-turn I've predicted for weeks, mum will have to wait for her money. As a lifelong Tory voter and brexiteer, I consider she has helped to bring all this upon herself and her family, but doubt she will see it that way. If interest on the little remaining on our mortgage doubles as well in January we are screwed. If this is compounded by further fuel price rises, we might as well hand back the keys. Since an almost unimaginable number of Tory voting pensioners and their families will fall over long before us, I'm unable to allow myself to get stressed, since rendering their core vote homeless or killing them off will be a difficult sell even for this lot. Businesses are already closing, people will already be cutting back spending in anticipation, impacting businesses, some of whom were highlighted in the guardian link shared yesterday. I imagine it's already too late for many seasonal businesses who need to make their money in the summer months and the next two or three weeks to last until spring, wiping out thousands of jobs, if the lack of response hasn't already. Hopefully they will destroy their brand before grannies start freezing to death, but that's up to them. About the only thing we can now do to save on power is turn off the TV and radio. If others follow suit, communicating their message becomes harder and those who don't follow news and isolate themselves as a result will behave as if no U-turn occurred. I expect the response to follow the pattern of covid, with a last minute, too little too late dash, poorly targeted and wasteful. One day, someone cleverer than me will calculate how many avoidable deaths, whether from covid, cold or poverty, can be laid squarely at Johnson's feet.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 27, 2022 10:19:40 GMT
domjg
If you haven't already seen the recent BBC TV series "Freddie's Field of Dreams", I recommend that you do. It follows Freddie Flintoff, probably one of the very few high profile genuinely working class cricketers to play for England in recent years, trying to rustle up a cricket team from the working class areas of his old home town Preston.
What it exposed was the virtual death of cricket in state schools and the general perception amongst working class kids that cricket was an upper class and snob's game. It also showed that when those same kids had a chance to play the game that many quite liked it.
As a lover of the game, and having played it at club level for 40 years, and who is still watching it, it is a great sadness to me that it's demographic base has withered away in the way that it has. When I started playing in the 1960s it was still the national summer game, played extensively in state schools and with most factories having vibrant works teams.
Now no more. Something seismic and drastic happened to the game's roots in the 1990s. I have various theories about why that was that I won't bore people with here, but while cricket will never die, and still has its keen followers, I fear its days as a mass player and spectator sport, certainly in this country, have gone. Despite recent constant format gimmickry and experimentation, which has alienated many traditional cricket enthusiasts ironically, I see no way back for it.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 27, 2022 10:20:15 GMT
thexterminatingdalek. I have the sense that this is an existential crisis and the grown-ups are nowhere to be found. Every idea that they come up with is risible and inadequate, the only prople who will sail through this without any problems are those with massive resources. It is the "Great Fuel Price Depression", and I don't think our society can survive it.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 27, 2022 10:27:04 GMT
domjg If you haven't already seen the recent BBC TV series "Freddie's Field of Dreams", I recommend that you do. It follows Freddie Flintoff, probably one of the very few high profile genuinely working class cricketers to play for England in recent years, trying to rustle up a cricket team from the working class areas of his old home town Preston. What it exposed was the virtual death of cricket in state schools and the general perception amongst working class kids that cricket was an upper class and snob's game. It also showed that when those same kids had a chance to play the game that many quite liked it. As a lover of the game, and having played it at club level for 40 years, and who is still watching it, it is a great sadness to me that it's demographic base has withered away in the way that it has. When I started playing in the 1960s it was still the national summer game, played extensively in state schools and with most factories having vibrant works teams. Now no more. Something seismic and drastic happened to the game's roots in the 1990s. I have various theories about why that was that I won't bore people with here, but while cricket will never die, and still has its keen followers, I fear its days as a mass player and spectator sport, certainly in this country, have gone. Despite recent constant format gimmickry and experimentation, which has alienated many traditional cricket enthusiasts ironically, I see no way back for it. On TMS at tea yesterday they interviewed the young man from that series who has started playing in the Lancashire Leagues. He is from Afghanistan, and Freddie helped him get refugee status by contacting Priti Patel. It was a very moving interview with the young man and his foster parents.
It was a great series and well worth a watch in my opinion.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 27, 2022 10:32:58 GMT
colin So, it wasn't the crowd at Old Trafford inviting the Tories to go forth and multiply, they were instead invoking the spirit of Old Jezza, a la Glastonbury. That's a turn up for the books I have to say and, if true, likely to endanger Old Trafford's Test venue status into the future. The ECB will take a dim view of such heresy. I actually quite like Cricket as a spectator sport but I've always tended to avoid it for those reasons, the stifling sense of conservatism and particular kind of Englishness surrounding it that I've never got on with. I can honestly say I have never encountered that when attending cricket matches although, obviously, I haven't sat in the Lords pavilion with the MCC members. What I do admire about cricket crowds is that the bar can be open all day, various characters can be drunk as a skunk, the volume can increase considerably, ribaldry can occur and yet you just don't get the mindless violent thugs starting fights that attach themselves to football. If that is because cricket is more middle-class the I'll take it, but I think it's just the different cultural expectations that surround the two games.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 27, 2022 10:48:02 GMT
Interesting R4 anaysis program on the NHS. Big shortage of doctors and nurses. We dont train nearly enough for the numbers we need. There was a boost to number of doctors in training during covid, but government is about to cancel that again. With current boost we might catch up with european average for number of doctors in 15 years time. However europe ia also anyway short of doctors so that still wouldnt be enough, and anyway we arent going to do it on current plans.
Uk pay is lower than some other English speaking countries. Conditions in hospitals for staff are a lot worse in the Uk than some other countries. Staff leave early or retire early because of the working environment.
There is a growing world shortage of medical staff which is reducing numbers wanting to come here. India as one example seems about to embark on a major expansion of its much criticised health service, thus will soak up many more staff who will not be coming here as they have in the past.
There is scope for using less specialist staff. So instead of ten years to train a doctor, we could be using more specialists. The NHS is also lagging in investment in equipment, including high tech which could help replace doctors for some tasks.
There is no plan at all how to address staff shortages. What plans there are frequently fall foul of the treasury, who do not see solving a problem occurring in ten years due to shortages as a priority.
So we can reasonably expect the NHS to deteriorate because of staff shortages and government has pretty much set its face against doing anything about this.
oh if only we had a trillion pounds to spend on value for money health care. But unlike being seen to be tackling covid, solving a problem in ten years time might be helping labour, so obviously a bad idea.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Aug 27, 2022 10:49:41 GMT
What it exposed was the virtual death of cricket in state schools and the general perception amongst working class kids that cricket was an upper class and snob's game. It also showed that when those same kids had a chance to play the game that many quite liked it. Cricket is played quite often here on my local park in Bolton. It's always an all-Asian match. I find it fascinating that one thing India and Pakistan -- two countries that hate each other so much -- have in common is Cricket. The support for the game is immensely strong in both countries, so much so that they have brought 'their' tradition over here. :-)
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 27, 2022 10:50:32 GMT
thexterminatingdalekWhile our savings are rather more significant they weren't exactly intended to keep energy company executives in new super yachts. Our kids are have far greater issues. Our son wants to move out , can't afford to already. Our daughter and her partner despite earning £50000 a year between them can't afford the rent ,energy and food bill as is, we're already paying for the food bill and I'm taking her to work every day because she can't afford the bus, the increase in energy cost means they are highly likely to have to give up their flat, downsizing isn't an option at best it saves a fraction of the costs.So we're looking to convert the dining room into a bed sit for them ,at least we have the space. Our foster son is currently flat sitting for a friend this ends in December so he's likely to be back in the spare bedroom as no chance of affording a flat in his own as a social worker! These are people in their mid twenties with responsible jobs and they are screwed. Faith at 65 is going back into nursing having retired three years ago and our retirement plans yet again are being f@cked over by the Tory brexitanian regime .
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Post by bardin1 on Aug 27, 2022 10:53:41 GMT
I can honestly say I have never encountered that when attending cricket matches although, obviously, I haven't sat in the Lords pavilion with the MCC members. What I do admire about cricket crowds is that the bar can be open all day, various characters can be drunk as a skunk, the volume can increase considerably, ribaldry can occur and yet you just don't get the mindless violent thugs starting fights that attach themselves to football. If that is because cricket is more middle-class the I'll take it, but I think it's just the different cultural expectations that surround the two games. Different timescales too I was at Hearts vs Zurich on Thursday . Zurich had brought over some hooligans and they were trying to arrange a fight (usual 'went like clockwork', 'clockwork orange' jokes). The football match is two hours so everyone gets tanked up before it starts and arrive ready for oppositional singing etc.# There's very little violence at footy these days though (there was none between fans at the Hearts game despite the posturing and the Zurich fans throwing coins etc at our keeper) Also 8 hours of cricket must induce a kind of burbling torpor which is the antithesis of wound up violence!
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 27, 2022 11:10:48 GMT
One day, someone cleverer than me will calculate how many avoidable deaths, whether from covid, cold or poverty, can be laid squarely at Johnson's feet. its not that simple though. It may truly be that without johnson leave would have failed. But without Cmmings they would have failed. Wihout Farage they would have failed. Without Russian money/ dirty tricks they might have failed. Had the pro EU conservative party stood up for its principles and opposed brexit, there would have been no referendum and no brexit, but of course also no 12 years of conservative rule.The smell of power was too intoxicating. Without liberal support for con brexit wouldnt have happened. Had Cameron realised a referendum would be lost, he could have vetoed it becoming policy. Had remain campaigners taken more seriously the chance they might lose, they might have campaigned harder and been willing to attack the credibility of their leave colleagues, which they simply didnt. thexterminatingdalek . I have the sense that this is an existential crisis and the grown-ups are nowhere to be found. Every idea that they come up with is risible and inadequate, the only prople who will sail through this without any problems are those with massive resources. It is the "Great Fuel Price Depression", and I don't think our society can survive it. I have been arguing that the conservative party has been running on damage limitation and anything it takes to remain in power for years. Supporting a brexit referendum got them into power (plus the support of the barmy pro EU libs). But they destroyed the great engine of UK industrial recovery which was our having joined the EU. There is nothing to replace this, and our economy must inevitably decline. The aftershock when voters realis how comprehensively they were lied to will be immense. And labour arent showing any signs of supporting rejoin either, it may sink them too.
Factors due to global warming are unpredictable, but likely to continue having increasing impact. Russia isnt going to get less belligerent. We still have no comprehensive energy plan. No NHS plan. No water plan. No housing plan. No schools plan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 11:22:59 GMT
colin So, it wasn't the crowd at Old Trafford inviting the Tories to go forth and multiply, they were instead invoking the spirit of Old Jezza, a la Glastonbury. That's a turn up for the books I have to say and, if true, likely to endanger Old Trafford's Test venue status into the future. The ECB will take a dim view of such heresy. I didn't watch all day so cant say whether there was an anti-Tory chant. After the Glastonbury Jezza chant the screen switched to the England team balcony. Crawley looked very surprised -turning to his team mates and talking. But maybe he was just asking if they thought he was an opening bat yet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 11:25:49 GMT
colin "Willl Truss have policies appropriate to this situation? If she doesn't -and she isn't trying to persuade anyone that she has-the May election results are likely to demonstrate to her where she is going wrong." It is notable that Truss and her camapaign team have not realised the substantive importance, political salience and urgency of this issue. The FT reported that she and her team plan that the first 3 months of her premiership will focus on dealing with the cost of living crisis and 2023 will be the year of delivery leading to victory in a 2024 GE. It seems they have no concept of what they are and will be dealing with. It does. Quite extraordinary. I have seen no reports of follow up to Kwarteng looking at the Scottish Power proposal. Though I gather they weere all holed up at Chevening. It will be a short sharp lesson if they fail to understand and act quickly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 11:27:33 GMT
colin So, it wasn't the crowd at Old Trafford inviting the Tories to go forth and multiply, they were instead invoking the spirit of Old Jezza, a la Glastonbury. That's a turn up for the books I have to say and, if true, likely to endanger Old Trafford's Test venue status into the future. The ECB will take a dim view of such heresy. I actually quite like Cricket as a spectator sport but I've always tended to avoid it for those reasons, the stifling sense of conservatism and particular kind of Englishness surrounding it that I've never got on with. I think you may be a few decades out of date. No team lead by Stokes could meet your concept of test cricket.
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Post by chrisaberavon on Aug 27, 2022 11:29:33 GMT
Good afternoon all. There is a nice review of the new biog of Harold Wilson today in the ST; I might buy the book if it ever gets to paperback and the review points to the 'moderate Labour problem with with Keir will have to deal if he ever becomes PM (imo).
His not very loyal Minister 'Tony Benn' welcomed (in his diary entry) Labour's defeat at the hands of Mrs Thatcher and he also thought the 1983 GE result should be celebrated as 8.5 million people (in the UK- as Graham might point out) voted for socialism.
DANNY. Hello to you, I think Truss and her team will trump Labour and win the next GE, which will not be in 2024 or 2025. Just a hunch. The voters, imo, do not seem very 'Wilsony' or 'Blairy' at the moment. Good article about crime and policing by Janice Turner points to a line of 'attack' which younger Brown/Blair/Blunkett/Straw took in the early 1990's
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 11:37:45 GMT
, the only prople who will sail through this without any problems are those with massive resources. There is another group that will be substantially protected. The 3 or 4 million retired public sector pensioners with indexed pensions. But I suppose they all vote Labour anyway. The liability for public sector pensions exceeded UK GDP this year for the first time ( Bloomberg)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 11:39:29 GMT
I actually quite like Cricket as a spectator sport but I've always tended to avoid it for those reasons, the stifling sense of conservatism and particular kind of Englishness surrounding it that I've never got on with. I can honestly say I have never encountered that when attending cricket matches although, obviously, I haven't sat in the Lords pavilion with the MCC members. What I do admire about cricket crowds is that the bar can be open all day, various characters can be drunk as a skunk, the volume can increase considerably, ribaldry can occur and yet you just don't get the mindless violent thugs starting fights that attach themselves to football. If that is because cricket is more middle-class the I'll take it, but I think it's just the different cultural expectations that surround the two games. I agree. Its still a family friendly day of sport.
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Post by JohnC on Aug 27, 2022 11:40:12 GMT
I can honestly say I have never encountered that when attending cricket matches although, obviously, I haven't sat in the Lords pavilion with the MCC members. What I do admire about cricket crowds is that the bar can be open all day, various characters can be drunk as a skunk, the volume can increase considerably, ribaldry can occur and yet you just don't get the mindless violent thugs starting fights that attach themselves to football. If that is because cricket is more middle-class the I'll take it, but I think it's just the different cultural expectations that surround the two games. Different timescales too I was at Hearts vs Zurich on Thursday . Zurich had brought over some hooligans and they were trying to arrange a fight (usual 'went like clockwork', 'clockwork orange' jokes). The football match is two hours so everyone gets tanked up before it starts and arrive ready for oppositional singing etc.# There's very little violence at footy these days though (there was none between fans at the Hearts game despite the posturing and the Zurich fans throwing coins etc at our keeper) Also 8 hours of cricket must induce a kind of burbling torpor which is the antithesis of wound up violence! I recall when taking my sons to Essex Sunday matches that there was usually a contingent of West Ham fans with nothing better to do off season. Drunk and ribald they may have been but never a hint of violence, though their noise level must have been annoying to the members trying to nap.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 27, 2022 11:43:41 GMT
colin Public sector pensions rose on average 3.4% this year , no change will occur until at least April '23. So absolutely f all benefit for this winter. But I suppose if you base your comments on whatever shit you've just seen in the daily mail you are likely to be utterly devoid of any connection with reality.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 27, 2022 11:45:26 GMT
Of course UK GDP is diminished because of the brexitanian regime inflicted on us by Tory voters.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 27, 2022 11:52:16 GMT
, ners with indexed pensions.The liability for public sector pensions exceeded UK GDP this year for the first time ( Bloomberg) An entirely meaningless statistic given that GDP represents one single year, whereas the total 'liability' of a pension fund represents the entire actuarially calculated future payments to all members of the fund over their expected pension receiving life - i.e. many years for each person. It does not all have to be paid in one go.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 27, 2022 11:55:09 GMT
colin Public sector pensions rose on average 3.4% this year , no change will occur until at least April '23. So absolutely f all benefit for this winter. But I suppose if you base your comments on whatever shit you've just seen in the daily mail you are likely to be utterly devoid of any connection with reality. In addition, many public sector pensioners have very small, fully funded pensions. Mine is just over £1000 a year. . .not much fat on that bone.
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