steve
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Post by steve on Aug 18, 2022 9:01:54 GMT
Liz Truss has spent her campaign posing in front of Union flags while accusing the media of "talking the country down" and Keir Starmer of being a "plastic patriot."
Now newly-leaked comments have revealed what she really thinks about this country.
No hypocrite like a Tory hypocrite. They wrap themselves in the flag and love to define themselves as patriots but they seem to hate everything worthwhile in this country. TBF, they same to hate each other even more.
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Post by laszlo4new on Aug 18, 2022 9:10:37 GMT
Sorry, terribly long.To the discussion ( johntel and steve ) on productivity. johntel is right, the GDP/hours is not a measure of productivity at all. Productivity doesn't include any kind of price or value measures. It is the number of product units produced or number of customers served in a given time (e.g. hour). However, it has major implications to various value measures. In car manufacturing vehicle per useful hours (VPH). Cars are not produced faster today than towards the end of the 1970s. Workers cannot jump in the skeleton cars quicker to fasten the screws, human biology hasn’t changed to accommodate the higher speed of the conveyor belt. Yet, the HPV has come down. Firstly, there is less waste (quality problem), which obviously reduces the useful hour per vehicle. However, it is now at a level that cannot really be further reduced. Secondly, a lot of back office staff and supervisors have been fired, replaced by teamwork and by versions of artificial intelligence, thus their hours are now taken out of the calculations. Not many more people could be fired. Third, the combination of platform and model numbers are at a technological crunch. Every new model increases the HPV, less so on the same platform, but platforms can accommodate only a limited number of models (and the same applies for the shared components), thus new platforms are needed, increasing the HPV. However, the decisions on the models and platforms are not driven by HPV, but by market segmentation and competition. Supply chains were a kind of answer to this (compensating the constraint on capacity with cheaper labour), but it has also reached its limits (because of the need to increase the productivity in the supply chain, deal with the fluctuation in the supply chain, implementing the platform and model changes in the supply chain, etc.). I will return to the conclusion from this. Let's see now the service sector. In one of the major supermarket chains 15 years ago it was introduced: a cashier has to scan a product in every 3 seconds (on average). Now, just consider: how can the productivity be increased? In another major chain it was introduced almost 20 years ago: if more than three customers are waiting, a new cashier has to be employed. How can that productivity be increased? In a fast food chain it was introduced that on average not more than 7 people can be in a queue which sets the maximum productivity of the shop assistant. In the legal services industry and consultancies, although it was originally introduced as a control measure on employees in law firms and on-site consultants), the chargeable hours operates as a measure of increasing productivity, but again there are limits (24 hours a day). Why is it important? Companies want to increase productivity, because the price (in tendency) reflect the average productivity, thus being above the average means more profit. Obviously, it is provisional (until the catch up). This is at the firm level. Now, in macro level it actually means that the proportion of the revenue of the employees in the GDP falls (hence the share of capital increases). Some of this is not visible, because non-productive sectors don't contribute to value created, but get a share in the GDP). So, once the industry reaches the point as I mentioned in the contexts of car industry and supermarkets, the only solution is machinery: robots and AI (or Industry 4.0 in general), self-service checkouts in supermarkets, AI in law firms (a number of law firms offer contracts online for low prices, written by AI, some use Blockchain for property-related cases), etc. This is what social democrats once upon the time called: "machines crowd out workers". But there is a next step. Investment in machinery, digitalisation, etc. is profitable only over a period at a given capacity utilisation. At firm level it means that capturing/retaining markets is extremely important and hence that average productivity comes in again (this is why radical innovation is often introduced by newcomers to the industry). So, there is an additional effect at firm level: the value of the previous investment falls (even if not in the books - but I will come back to this). At macro level, however, the implications are much bigger: the increase in investment in assets (and because of the higher output, in raw materials, components, etc.) increases faster than the gain in per unit labour cost, that is, as a result of the productivity gain breakthrough, the national level of return on investment actually falls. So, the value of the previous investment (previously existing assets) has to be written off. Management tries to hold this up (price reudctions, sales campaign, etc.) to prevent its appearance in the books, but it just increases the problem, and only provisional. Very large companies can provisionally compensate through price increases (inflation), but it is also provisional, and obviously their managers would refer to "external causes" (today's inflation is also partially caused by this). So, recession has to come that writes off asset value (closures, adjustment of books, etc.) that at national level restores the return on investment. Thus, the increase in productivity (which is a pressure on individual firms to achieve) at national level causes recession. There is no way out of it (unless there is a harmonised way of writing off asset value, which cannot be done in the current economic structure).
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Post by isa on Aug 18, 2022 9:12:40 GMT
You're very kind, crossbat11 . A propos of nothing at all, I've been racking my brain as to what your new avatar represented. I think I have just deduced from the line at the bottom of your post that they are characters from Supercar, which I've sadly never seen. For the life of me, I couldn't work out what Groucho Marx and Sydney Greenstreet were doing in the same car! isa You identified my current avatar correctly! I like the comparison in looks to Groucho Marx and Sydney Greenstreet, although I thought it was more Mick Lynch and Leon Trotsky. A pairing more in dreamland than reality, perhaps?? Of course, as all us Supercar devotees will know, it is in fact Master Spy and his ever loyal but always bungling accomplice Zarin. They were a sort of Dick Dastardly and Mutley combination and both vinyl puppet heroes of mine when I was a kid. Yes, that works too!
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 18, 2022 9:31:45 GMT
steve
The more I see of this Tory leadership contest, the more I become convinced that whoever wins will be a disaster for the Tory Party.
Is this what they call a win-win situation?
Lose-lose for the country, admittedly, but win-win for those of us who want rid of them.
I'm taking the long term view here, obviously.
Unless of course cool Lizzie turns the taps on and goes all left wing on us. She'll carry the country if she does.
Then we're all doooooommmmmeddd!
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 18, 2022 9:35:13 GMT
Oh no, we tea drinkers are in trouble, time to start reusing the leaves.
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Post by hireton on Aug 18, 2022 9:54:50 GMT
moby"This is inaccurate. Labours history on devolution demonstrates that and to describe it as 'temporary' is pushing it to extremes." If anything history demonstrates that Labour’s commitment to pushing power away from Westminster is spasmodic, tactical and dependent on the balance of internal competing views. Early on it donned the Liberal clothes of "Home Rule" when it was competing against the Liberal hegemony in Scotland. It discarded those in the 1920s when it achieved electoral success across GB and when next in office after WWII it was very centralising. In the 1970s it turned to a tactical interest in devolution but could not overturn the internal opposition to the policy to carry it through. It returned to devolution in the 1990s and this time did implement the policy but has always been ambivalent about the implications and extent of that. So, far example, Westminster Labour tried very hard to prevent Holyrood Labour from introducing free personal care and was strongly aligned with the Tories and the Lib Dems in making sure that the Smith Commission proposals fell short of Brown's campaign promise: “Labour since Keir Hardie has been the Party of Home Rule for Scotland within the United Kingdom so the plan for a stronger Scottish Parliament we seek agreement on is for nothing else than a modern form of Scottish Home Rule within the United Kingdom.”
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Post by wb61 on Aug 18, 2022 9:56:59 GMT
You're very kind, crossbat11 . A propos of nothing at all, I've been racking my brain as to what your new avatar represented. I think I have just deduced from the line at the bottom of your post that they are characters from Supercar, which I've sadly never seen. For the life of me, I couldn't work out what Groucho Marx and Sydney Greenstreet were doing in the same car! isa You identified my current avatar correctly! I like the comparison in looks to Groucho Marx and Sydney Greenstreet, although I thought it was more Mick Lynch and Leon Trotsky. A pairing more in dreamland than reality, perhaps?? Of course, as all us Supercar devotees will know, it is in fact Master Spy and his ever loyal but always bungling accomplice Zarin. They were a sort of Dick Dastardly and Mutley combination and both vinyl puppet heroes of mine when I was a kid. Just a bit too young for Supercar but Supermarionation filled my childhood games with fantasies of being the hero, it started (because my father was in the Army and we lived in Hong Kong where TV programmes arrived a year or two after appearing in the UK) at the age of four with Fireball XL5, followed swiftly by "anything can happen in the next half hour" Stingray, for some unknown reason I preferred playing at Phones rather than Troy Tempest, but my big break came with Thunderbirds I was, obviously, Virgil, couldn't be doing with Thunderbird 1, when the pod system of Thunderbird 2 was so much more exciting. After that I watched Captain Scarlet and Joe 90 which were good but did not grip my imagination in the way Thunderbirds had, I presume because of advancing old age; I must have been approaching 9 or 10 when they appeared.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 18, 2022 10:03:32 GMT
Two-thirds of all UK households will be trapped in fuel poverty by January with planned government support leaving even middle-income households struggling to pay their bills, according to research.
It shows 18 million families, the equivalent of 45 million people, will be left trying to make ends meet after further predicted rises in the energy price cap in October and January.
An estimated 86.4% of pensioner couples are expected to fall into fuel poverty, traditionally defined as when energy costs exceed 10% of a household’s net income, and 90.4% of lone parents with two or more children.
The new study by the University of York also shows huge regional variation in the cost of living crisis with 57.9% of households in the south-east predicted to be struggling with energy bills by January, compared with 70.9% in the West Midlands and 76.3% in Northern Ireland.
But never fear Lizzies here so we can focus on the burning issues of the day like putting number plates on pedal cycles ( joining North Korea as the only country that currently does) and making sure everyone is certain who's a women.
Oh and tax cuts for the rich of course.
This winter is shaping up to be the answer to the trivial pursuit question 2030 edition " when did the food riots happen in Britain "
Two more years of these muppets we're doomed.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 18, 2022 10:10:34 GMT
wb61
Master Spy of Supercar fame was a template villainous character for Titan in Stingray and The Hood in Thunderbirds. They may even have been the same puppet.
Lew Grade was the head of ITV when the channel commissioned Supercar and it is thought that the puppet was modelled on Grade. I can certainly see the similarities!
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Post by johntel on Aug 18, 2022 10:14:40 GMT
Just a bit too young for Supercar but Supermarionation filled my childhood games with fantasies of being the hero, it started (because my father was in the Army and we lived in Hong Kong where TV programmes arrived a year or two after appearing in the UK) at the age of four with Fireball XL5, followed swiftly by "anything can happen in the next half hour" Stingray, for some unknown reason I preferred playing at Phones rather than Troy Tempest, but my big break came with Thunderbirds I was, obviously, Virgil, couldn't be doing with Thunderbird 1, when the pod system of Thunderbird 2 was so much more exciting. After that I watched Captain Scarlet and Joe 90 which were good but did not grip my imagination in the way Thunderbirds had, I presume because of advancing old age I must have been approaching 9 or 10 when they appeared. @wb My opinions on the Gerry Anderson series corresponds exactly with yours - so I guess we must be the same age - I'm 66. Thunderbird 4 was my favourite for some reason. Did you collect the sweet cigarette Thunderbirds cards? I can still remember the joy of buying 12 packets at 2d each and finally getting 'The Hood' to complete the set. About the same time time, maybe a little earlier, were the Zoom space series. Funny to think that the following year I was trying to smoke real cigarettes. I don't know which were the most disgusting.
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Post by Mark on Aug 18, 2022 10:15:47 GMT
Though in the UK the Labour Party is to some extent a unifying force, there are many splinter groups and offshoots such as TUSC, Workers Revolutionary Party if they still exist and so on. It doesn't seem to happen so much on the right. UKIP was an exception perhaps, but it drew much support from Labour voters as well as Conservative. There are tiny parties such as English Democrats as well. Reform UK is Continuity UKIP so isn't really right-wing as far as I know. It's just a thought - a discussion point if you will - is the left more prone to splintering, and if so why? I think there are two points here. Firstly, regarding left parties that are separate to Labour, most of the more significant ones (TUSC, Respect, Socialist Alliance), have, to a large extent, their roots in the Socialist Workers Party, who have never been - and never will be, part of the Labour Party. Way back the Socialist Workers used to say "Vote Labour, but build a socialist alternative". The main remaining left party, the Socialist Party, is effectively Militant rebranded, who were kicked out of Labour in the 80's. In recent times, the only real Labour splinter has been the SDP. (Well, you could include the short lived Change UK, I suppose, which splintered from both Labour and the Tories). As to why the splinter, or other groups happen more on the left of UK politics, firstly, it is worth remembering that parties like TUSC etc. rarely get more thn 2 or 3 percent in elections. The only party that regularly gets a greater level of support is the Greens, which, while left wing in the UK, come from an environmental background rather than an ideological left one. As to why small left wing parties exist in the first place, at least part of this, for me, comes down to the ideological vs pragmatic axis. It is often said that the left is more ideological while the right is more pragmatic...that the tories concentrate on winning elections while labour indulges in more naval gazing. I'm not entirely sure that this is true in practice. With the possible exception of Corbyn, labour has often been timid, tacking to the centre, both in opposition (indeed even on the last few pages of this very thread, there have been posts saying that labour cannot be "too extreme" is it wants to win elections) and in power. The tories, however, appear to have no such qualms about tacking rightwards and regularly throw red meat to their supporters, as both leadership candidates have done.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 18, 2022 10:37:58 GMT
Today is of course according to our media national photogenic 18 year old girl jumping in the air day. Best of luck to them and those who don't actually get off the ground. I often mention the extinction of the hyphen on this site. But yr first line is an example of how hyphenation would make yr point instantly intelligible. As it was, I had to read it twice: I'm a busy man sport- spare me the effort. Today is of course, according to our national media, photogenic-18-year-old-girl-jumping-in-the-air-day. You are right of course about Truss & patriotism. The ROCs on here, sadly reduced in number, and much-missed, had a wearying habit of accusing the LOCs of being unpatriotic, hating & running down their country, etc. We now discover that our PM-elect despises & condemns most of the population. Many economists would suggest that the real problem in the UK is its low level investment: this has many causes but little or none of the blame for this dismal under-inestment can be attributed to the workforce.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 18, 2022 10:41:23 GMT
@wb My opinions on the Gerry Anderson series corresponds exactly with yours - so I guess we must be the same age - I'm 66. Thunderbird 4 was my favourite for some reason. Did you collect the sweet cigarette Thunderbirds cards? I can still remember the joy of buying 12 packets at 2d each and finally getting 'The Hood' to complete the set. About the same time time, maybe a little earlier, were the Zoom space series. Funny to think that the following year I was trying to smoke real cigarettes. I don't know which were the most disgusting. Only 61 myself but as I explained the reason I got to watch Fireball and Stingray is because they arrived in Hong Kong a year or so later. As for the sweets with cards, by the time I returned to the UK it was bubble gum with Batman cards (based on the Adam West series at the time). The reason I don't smoke is because of psychological trauma (at least that's how it felt) I was 14 an my mate, who had been smoking for at least two weeks told me it was time I started smoking; we were standing outside the main entrance to Swansea Market on a busy Saturday afternoon, I took a cigarette from him and, as is my wont, approached matters enthusiastically. This entailed me taking as deep a draft of smoke in one go as I could; the consequence was as dramatic as it was inevitable; I coughed incessantly until I vomited falling to the floor in the process. It being Swansea and a Saturday afternoon in 1975 I was immediately surrounded by a group of caring/nosey (delete as appropriate) old ladies expressing sympathy and disgust in equal measure. The resultant excess embarrassment quotient I felt has scarred me for life
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 18, 2022 10:45:26 GMT
With regard to splinter parties/groups. I think you can argue that UKIP, BNP and the National Front are not dissimilar in relationship to the Tories as the Socialist Workers are to Labour. Militant, like UKIP was really a vehicle to attempt to take over an established party, UKIP succeeded.
I think the success of UKIP was largely facilitated by the BBC's determination to have their spokespeople on the political programmes such as Andrew Neil's late night ego-fest and Question time. Farage was also painted as a personable kind of chap who talked a lot of sense, those on the left are rarely given that kind of leeway. Maybe Mick Lynch is having a moment, but he isn't seeking parliamentary election.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 10:51:17 GMT
With regard to productivity one of the components is the engagement of the Labour Force. If the bosses are making all the money then thrashing the slaves only works if you can get more slaves dirt cheap.
After 12 years of pay cuts, verbal abuse by my employer (anti-semetic am I?) and no share whatever in any profits, I'm fucked if I'm producing more widgets per hour for you. Quite the contrary.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 18, 2022 10:51:20 GMT
With regard to splinter parties/groups. I think you can argue that UKIP, BNP and the National Front are not dissimilar in relationship to the Tories as the Socialist Workers are to Labour. Militant, like UKIP was really a vehicle to attempt to take over an established party, UKIP succeeded. I think the success of UKIP was largely facilitated by the BBC's determination to have their spokespeople on the political programmes such as Andrew Neil's late night ego-fest and Question time. Farage was also painted as a personable kind of chap who talked a lot of sense, those on the left are rarely given that kind of leeway. Maybe Mick Lynch is having a moment, but he isn't seeking parliamentary election. I think its also true that towards the right acceptance of hierarchy and resulting authority is more tolerated, so that once the leader is in place there is an instinct to fall in line and achieve your best position within the hierarchy comes to the fore.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 18, 2022 11:16:06 GMT
oldnat - I think the key difference is scale. None of those groups you mentioned is electorally significant, whereas some of those mercian cited (such as TUSC) regularly field candidates in opposition to Labour in local and Westminster elections in E&W. Also the ongoing discussion on here involving those who would vote for the Green party in E&W in preference to Labour. Whereas if Farage does crawl back under his rock (and noting mercian 's valid point about mostly taking votes from Labour in certain areas of E&W) then the ROC voter goes back to a much more straightforward "vote Tory or stay home" choice. That is of course an advantage that they've managed to turn into a spectacular weakness at times through corruption, impotence and venality, 1997/2001 in particular. Whether that will be the case again in 2024 we wait to see... Thanks for yr posts on US politics. It would be great if you could post on the mecahnics of US elections as I don't grasp a lot of stuff. Or to save you the bother, point to a good guide. The above post I found opague as it mixes so many different blocks of voters. You say the ROC voter can only vote Tory or abstain. So they can't vote Lib-Dem? & those who stolidly give a 3-4% return for Reform in polls are supporting a party that doesn't in effect exist, if Farage doesn't field candidates. How are these specilalist ROC voters identified?
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Post by wb61 on Aug 18, 2022 11:18:35 GMT
Thinking of hierarchy and systems of government reminded me of this from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why
I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
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Post by laszlo4new on Aug 18, 2022 11:20:44 GMT
With regard to productivity one of the components is the engagement of the Labour Force. If the bosses are making all the money then thrashing the slaves only works if you can get more slaves dirt cheap. After 12 years of pay cuts, verbal abuse by my employer (anti-semetic am I?) and no share whatever in any profits, I'm fucked if I'm producing more widgets per hour for you. Quite the contrary. Yes, productivity increase is a form of expanding exploitation (increasing profit's proportion in the new value). But your point about stagnating wages is very important. It does suggest that the struggling with the economic crisis has been on for at least 15 years. There is a nonsense belief (taught in economics courses and publicised by politicians) that recessions are caused by insufficient demand by the people. But all recessions are preceded by growing wages periods since 1825. The cause of the recession is the profit. It would have helped had the government had not saved the banks and companies in 2009-2010. I understand why they did it, but that and the period of 2010-2022 has been damaging for the economy and the people.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Aug 18, 2022 11:43:55 GMT
wb61 : Well done the old ladies!
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Post by alec on Aug 18, 2022 11:51:44 GMT
Truss' questioning of Starmer's patriotism disgusts me. Typical of modern Tories, and the dreadful people that lead them.
Her refusal to attend the NFU leadership hustings will make more than a few farmers wonder what kind of patriotism it takes to shaft your own farmers when negotiating trade deals.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 18, 2022 11:57:54 GMT
You can see who does the grafting in the PM’s household.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 12:17:09 GMT
Be fair. That looked like a jolly heavy bag our boy Boris was carrying.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 18, 2022 12:42:37 GMT
The semantic debate about splits & splitters is not helpful? It makes Mercian's mistake of assuming that new parties or groups are sliced or spun-off from old ones which is not always or indeed usually true.
1. As Moddy Mark said the SWP was never part of the Labour Party & hence could not split-off from it. The SWP (formerly IS) was Trotskyist & originated from the Trotsky-founded Fourth international. It did try entryism into the Lab Party to gain members, and often advised people to "Vote Labour without Illusions" (ha ha) but subsequently relied on student radicalism in the '60s, as did many Trot parties, this was their heyday, & the recruitment of factory workers & manual labourers. Most of the other revolutionary groups, the RCG, RCP, WRP, Sparticist League etc were also Trots and were not splits from the Labour P. These are not revolutionary anarchists but all were revoultionary vanguard parties which believe you must build a revolutionary movement from the ground up. Their early history is conveyed & satirised in John Sullivan's brilliantly funny pamphlet, Go Fourth & Multiply. There have been numerous splits among these non-Labour groups as there always are with powerless groups on the fringes of politics.
2. As well as splits from major parties, ILP in 1932, SDP 1981, etc there gave also been attempts not to split but to reform the Lab P. from within. Militant or the Militant Tendency had Trotskyite roots & relied on entryism or infiltration, and as we all know was expelled from the Lbour P in the '80s. Momentum was/is another attempt to radicalise the LP without splitting.
3.There have been numerous right-wing groups which were not split-offs from the Tory party even if they drew on ROC support, and they have also been subject to constant splits, internal feuds & coups, e.g.s the NP & the BNP, UKREF, UKIP, REFUK,etc. The neo-Nazi parties achieved more electoral sucess in the 60s & 70s than the Trots once they directed their Nazism toward immigration. UKIP absorbed much of BNP's electoral support, & indeed many former BNP members, as well as attracting mass Lab, Tory & non-voters. It did not gain electoral success until Farage stiched together racism, English nationalism & anti-EU immigration. He made BNP policies "respectable". Otherwise decent people have told me they voted UKIP who would never have dared told me they voted BNP. Since his departure, as we know, UKIP has been riven with divisions.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 18, 2022 12:49:28 GMT
Unless of course cool Lizzie turns the taps on and goes all left wing on us. She'll carry the country if she does. Then we're all doooooommmmmeddd! Yes, how much of the right wing stuff being sold now by Truss is for the membership, whereas once in power might tack notably left? (Versus Truss actually believing the right wing stuff. In which case, doom might also apply…)
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 18, 2022 12:49:38 GMT
@crofty
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 18, 2022 13:04:37 GMT
leftieliberal Nec reported paid up membership was about 380,000 a while back so still falling. Not sure how a "united" party losing £5m in a year can be seen as better than a feuding party not losing £5m in a year. You also have to consider that even if the party is united, which it really isn't, those who have left are creating havoc on social media. Just look at the replies to any tweets Starmer or Labour put out. Feuding parties don't win elections. I thought that was the lesson that Labour finally learned by the end of the 1980s. indeed, that’s how they did their bit to stop Corbyn winning in 2017! And it didn’t help Major in ‘97 either, the anti-EU “b’stards”. Probably not great for May either? Feuding is how one faction stop another faction getting or staying elected.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 18, 2022 13:15:11 GMT
Another nonsense from Sunak: for promotion, he will require all civil servants to spend a year out of Whitehall. Meanwhile Rees-Mogg is trying to get the Civil Servants to come back in
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 18, 2022 13:16:44 GMT
As there has been concern about drought conditions in certain parts of the country, we now know the simplest solution to the problem. Hold a cricket test match in each affected area. But not necessarily Rugby Sevens matches beforehand!
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 18, 2022 14:06:35 GMT
The semantic debate about splits & splitters is not helpful? It makes Mercian's mistake of assuming that new parties or groups are sliced or spun-off from old ones which is not always or indeed usually true. 1. As Moddy Mark said the SWP was never part of the Labour Party & hence could not split-off from it. The SWP (formerly IS) was Trotskyist & originated from the Trotsky-founded Fourth international. It did try entryism into the Lab Party to gain members, and often advised people to "Vote Labour without Illusions" (ha ha) but subsequently relied on student radicalism in the '60s, as did many Trot parties, this was their heyday, & the recruitment of factory workers & manual labourers. Most of the other revolutionary groups, the RCG, RCP, WRP, Sparticist League etc were also Trots and were not splits from the Labour P. These are not revolutionary anarchists but all were revoultionary vanguard parties which believe you must build a revolutionary movement from the ground up. Their early history is conveyed & satirised in John Sullivan's brilliantly funny pamphlet, Go Fourth & Multiply. There have been numerous splits among these non-Labour groups as there always are with powerless groups on the fringes of politics. 2. As well as splits from major parties, ILP in 1932, SDP 1981, etc there gave also been attempts not to split but to reform the Lab P. from within. Militant or the Militant Tendency had Trotskyite roots & relied on entryism or infiltration, and as we all know was expelled from the Lbour P in the '80s. Momentum was/is another attempt to radicalise the LP without splitting. 3.There have been numerous right-wing groups which were not split-offs from the Tory party even if they drew on ROC support, and they have also been subject to constant splits, internal feuds & coups, e.g.s the NP & the BNP, UKREF, UKIP, REFUK,etc. The neo-Nazi parties achieved more electoral sucess in the 60s & 70s than the Trots once they directed their Nazism toward immigration. UKIP absorbed much of BNP's electoral support, & indeed many former BNP members, as well as attracting mass Lab, Tory & non-voters. It did not gain electoral success until Farage stiched together racism, English nationalism & anti-EU immigration. He made BNP policies "respectable". Otherwise decent people have told me they voted UKIP who would never have dared told me they voted BNP. Since his departure, as we know, UKIP has been riven with divisions. Thanks for this, Robbie. I was a student in the 1970s and it's good to get such a lucid explanation of what was going on and has gone on since in both the left and right-wing groups. Can I have a brownie point for using a hyphen. I think you use one because the adjective would not make sense without both words. I.e. wing groups means nothing.
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