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Post by jib on Aug 5, 2022 10:27:03 GMT
With regards Inheritance Tax, the foundations of the UK are built around family bonds, values and strengths.
To try and damage the ability of the middle classes to pass on wealth through the generations would be political suicide.
No politician would touch it with a bargepole although I agree progressive reform is much needed, particularly in terms of who pays for social care etc.
Much of the "mega wealth" in the UK is held by a handful of aristocratic families who conquered the UK in 1066 and thereafter. Our current inheritance tax rules are cynically exploited by those in the million plus categories by trusts, limited companies and other wheezes. Leave the moderately wealthy middle classes be!
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Post by graham on Aug 5, 2022 11:02:26 GMT
I see that the parents of Archie Battersbee have been refused permission to move him to a hospice on the basis that moving him involved 'a significant risk.' This appears rather bizarre - indeed callous - given that the hospital is intending to withdraw the support currently being provided. Some doctors have stated that Archie is already brain dead - if so , how does any risk arise?
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Post by jayblanc on Aug 5, 2022 11:16:10 GMT
This party leadership contest seems to have turned into a game of Fascism Chicken, which candidate can get close enough to Fascism before they crash into each other.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 5, 2022 11:22:34 GMT
The only way not to be ashamed of parts of UK history is to be ignorant of it, as many are. Can anyone truly say they are proud of the slave trade, the opium wars, the Tasmanian genocide, the Irish and (multiple) Indian famines caused by British policy, the Amritsar massacre, the Boer War concentration camps, the gas bombing of Iraqi Kurds in the 1920s - the list of horrors goes on and on. I'm not saying the UK hasn't also done good in the world but whitewashing the past won't help you understand why so many ex-colonial countries are cynical about British self-image. There's whitewashing the past and there's realising there's no need to apologise for the actions of generations long gone 6ft under the ground. The values the nations of the UK project across the World are overwhelmingly positive, and let's deal with the here and now. There is real evil in this world, but the UK is certainly not a fountain of that when one considers places like China, Russia and North Korea. We should be proud of what we are and values we (the living people of the UK) hold. The wokeist whitewashing can get stuffed. Did I ask anyone to apologise? As a historian I am not a fan of people apologising for past events as frankly there would be no end to it. I am more for a 'remember and explain' approach. However Truss is complaining that people are ashamed of British history. How many British people even know about - to pick an example - the Bengal famine of 1943 in which between 2m and 3.8m Indians died but requests to import food "were either rejected or reduced to a fraction of the original amount by Churchill's War Cabinet. The colony was also not permitted to spend its own sterling reserves, or even use its own ships, to import food." I can assure you they remember it in India and the scars remain. Are you proud of that? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
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Post by bardin1 on Aug 5, 2022 11:22:52 GMT
This party leadership contest seems to have turned into a game of Fascism Chicken, which candidate can get close enough to Fascism before they crash into each other. I see it more as a version of the generation game "An immigrant put on a plane to Rwanda!" " More money for our rich friends and relatives with shares!" "A boost for private schools and consultants!" "More punishment for work shy shirkers!"
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Post by mercian on Aug 5, 2022 11:28:05 GMT
colin - looking at housing from the perspective of wealth inequality is but one part of the problem. The bigger part, in my view, is how we raise the necessary tax for the society we want. We've just had house prices rise 20% during the pandemic, 11% in the last year. When food or fuel prices rise like this it's call a crisis, but when rents shoot up after massive house price inflation it's - what? - a good return on investment? Whether or not housing value is a source of growing inequality or not is less relevant than the fact that it's an undertaxed area that we need to tax to fund better public services, especially when we consider that unlike wages and jobs, we can tax this without slowing the economy. There would be less pressure on the housing market if illegal immigrants and foreign criminals were deported, and stricter immigration controls were in place - restricting extended family members for instance.
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Post by mercian on Aug 5, 2022 11:32:28 GMT
I see that the parents of Archie Battersbee have been refused permission to move him to a hospice on the basis that moving him involved 'a significant risk.' This appears rather bizarre - indeed callous - given that the hospital is intending to withdraw the support currently being provided. Some doctors have stated that Archie is already brain dead - if so , how does any risk arise? Absolutely. It seems like pure spite on the part of the hospital.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 5, 2022 11:36:52 GMT
colin - looking at housing from the perspective of wealth inequality is but one part of the problem. The bigger part, in my view, is how we raise the necessary tax for the society we want. We've just had house prices rise 20% during the pandemic, 11% in the last year. When food or fuel prices rise like this it's call a crisis, but when rents shoot up after massive house price inflation it's - what? - a good return on investment? Whether or not housing value is a source of growing inequality or not is less relevant than the fact that it's an undertaxed area that we need to tax to fund better public services, especially when we consider that unlike wages and jobs, we can tax this without slowing the economy. There would be less pressure on the housing market if illegal immigrants and foreign criminals were deported, and stricter immigration controls were in place - restricting extended family members for instance. Evidence? Or is this just "common sense" (which is not that common according to Voltaire)
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 5, 2022 11:44:05 GMT
Sunak beat Truss hands down last night. Burley's usual flippant approach to her job , meant that neither candidate was asked :- " How much new government assistance will be provided per household after the next energy cost cap review-how much will it cost-how will you fund it ?. Going forward do you agree with IMF that consumers should bear the brunt of higher bills to encourage energy saving" ?
Presumably Starmer will have his answer readily available. These questions are spot-on: all posters are puzzled, even appalled, that they have not been posed let alone answered. But: it is not Starmer's job to answer questions which the prospective PMs are avoiding. If you want Starmer's answer then agitate for a GE. Re Inheritance Tax & the studies you cited. (Apologies for length.) Study 1. Sweden. (No indication of effects of house-price inflation or of sources of wealth). The immediate effect of inheritance is to reduce inequality, as poorer households experience a greater relative benefit, as they have few if any savings. However, poorer households spent 60% of their inheritance in the Year 1, while better-off ones save 60-100%. This must increase wealth-inequality in the longer run? The effect of Swedish inheritance taxes was to increase inequality for the poorest 1/5th of households, tho I doubt whether the bottom 1/5th of households in UK pay much IT. (Anecdote, as they seem to abound. I inherited my share of house-price inflation 25 years ago from my surviving parent. She started with absolutely nothing & was proud to leave us money. I didn't spend a cent: instead drip-fed the lot into unit trusts etc, to fund my early retirement. As I have mentioned before these rentier-style-early-retirement-NI-free-economic-inactive-incomes are drastically under-taxed on a year-to-year basis which will boost my daughter's inheritance.) Study 2. Key findings: UK. Agrees with Swedish finding. While inheritances are set to be larger for those with higher incomes, inheritances as a percentage of lifetime income look likely to be similar, on average, for low- and high-income households. However , Among the 1980s-born, we project that the median lifetime inheritance receipt for households in the bottom fifth by lifetime income will be around £150,000, and for households in the top fifth it will be around £390,000.
Moreover , Inheritances are set to be increasingly important in increasing inequalities between those with richer and poorer parents, reducing social mobility. For those born in the 1980s , inheritances are projected to increase lifetime incomes by 5%, on average, for those with parents in the bottom fifth of the wealth distribution and by 29% for those with parents in the top fifth. Very interestingly. As those with higher incomes are more likely to be able or willing to reduce the amount that they save in anticipation of inheriting, they likely see a larger effect on their living standards today [they write so badly!] : Our modelling finds that for 1980s-born, the bottom fifth of households by lifetime income effectively spend 11% of their inheritance in advance of receiving it whereas the top fifth by lifetime income spend 33% in advance.
Conclusion. The growth of inheritances means that policies that successfully redistribute them would have larger effects on inequality and social mobility for later-born generations.
Study 3. Conclusion only, as I could not access the study. "The finding that inheritances are relatively more important to less wealthy households than richer ones and therefore can decrease net worth inequality is common among all studies which use survey data to examine the effect of inheritance on wealth inequality (Citations). This finding, however, rests on the rather strong assumption that inheritances do not affect households’ saving behaviour either before or after the receipt of inheritances."
But Studies 1 & 2 show that this assumption is quite false. Savings behaviour is affected both before & after inheritance & this benefits better-off households during their lifetime, when they anticipate inheritance, & increases inequality between generations. I am v glad to see that the kids of poorer households, e.g., those born in the 1980s, will benefit more from inheritance than I realised: but the structural inequality between poorer & better-off households, before & after inheritance, seems to persist? I reiterate the point that inter-generational transfers before parental demise both benefit middle-class children & reduce the gross take from I. Tax & that such legacies can be shielded from further tax by transfers, ISAs etc.
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Post by jib on Aug 5, 2022 11:45:22 GMT
There's whitewashing the past and there's realising there's no need to apologise for the actions of generations long gone 6ft under the ground. The values the nations of the UK project across the World are overwhelmingly positive, and let's deal with the here and now. There is real evil in this world, but the UK is certainly not a fountain of that when one considers places like China, Russia and North Korea. We should be proud of what we are and values we (the living people of the UK) hold. The wokeist whitewashing can get stuffed. Did I ask anyone to apologise? As a historian I am not a fan of people apologising for past events as frankly there would be no end to it. I am more for a 'remember and explain' approach. However Truss is complaining that people are ashamed of British history. How many British people even know about - to pick an example - the Bengal famine of 1943 in which between 2m and 3.8m Indians died but requests to import food "were either rejected or reduced to a fraction of the original amount by Churchill's War Cabinet. The colony was also not permitted to spend its own sterling reserves, or even use its own ships, to import food." I can assure you they remember it in India and the scars remain. Are you proud of that? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943Churchill is long gone from this world, so you sort of agree with my point. I'd be interested in the facts behind this wartime decision, so I may look into it.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 5, 2022 11:45:46 GMT
I see that the parents of Archie Battersbee have been refused permission to move him to a hospice on the basis that moving him involved 'a significant risk.' This appears rather bizarre - indeed callous - given that the hospital is intending to withdraw the support currently being provided. Some doctors have stated that Archie is already brain dead - if so , how does any risk arise? Absolutely. It seems like pure spite on the part of the hospital. I will quote what Suella Braverman said. I hope you will agree that if the hospital or the courts were acting unreasonably she would be the first to say so: "The attorney general, Suella Braverman, said the case was “incredibly heartbreaking” but that parents had sufficient legal rights and the courts would have looked at the issues “incredibly thoroughly”. She told Sky News: “I must just put on record my deepest sympathies for the family of Archie Battersbee, I cannot begin to imagine what he and his family have been going through.” She added: “I think generally, yes, parents do have sufficient rights. The legal presumption is that parents are acting in the best interest of their children until or unless proved otherwise. “These [cases] are not straightforward. They’re highly, highly complex matters involving detailed issues of medicine, and medical ethics, as well as the child’s welfare. “And I have confidence that our courts and our judges will have looked at these issues incredibly thoroughly, incredibly sensitively, and have reached the right decision.”
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 5, 2022 11:49:24 GMT
I see that the parents of Archie Battersbee have been refused permission to move him to a hospice on the basis that moving him involved 'a significant risk.' This appears rather bizarre - indeed callous - given that the hospital is intending to withdraw the support currently being provided. Some doctors have stated that Archie is already brain dead - if so , how does any risk arise? How can it possibly be in Archie Battersby’s interests to move him from his hospital bed, deposit him an ambulance, drive him to a hospice and submit him to a new regime. This is all about the parent’s needs, not their son’s.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 11:52:02 GMT
A hospital’s primary duty of care is to the patient. If they feel that moving this child is likely to cause the very problems the parents wish to avoid then it is their duty to say so and, within the law, act accordingly.
I lost a beautiful nephew, aged 14 and then his father (my brother) who had watched his son’s life end so tragically. both on life support machines, within a two year period. The staff at Newcastle General were fantastic, both professional and kind.
It would never have occurred to us to fight against the advice or insist on a hospice. The idea that “spite” is involved in these decisions is both fanciful and enormously offensive.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 5, 2022 11:52:58 GMT
Did I ask anyone to apologise? As a historian I am not a fan of people apologising for past events as frankly there would be no end to it. I am more for a 'remember and explain' approach. However Truss is complaining that people are ashamed of British history. How many British people even know about - to pick an example - the Bengal famine of 1943 in which between 2m and 3.8m Indians died but requests to import food "were either rejected or reduced to a fraction of the original amount by Churchill's War Cabinet. The colony was also not permitted to spend its own sterling reserves, or even use its own ships, to import food." I can assure you they remember it in India and the scars remain. Are you proud of that? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943Churchill is long gone from this world, so you sort of agree with my point. I'd be interested in the facts behind this wartime decision, so I may look into it. Thatcher is also dead, but we seem to hear a lot about her from the right, as we do the whole of the "Our Island Story" version of English/British/UK history. Churchill too, although usually without any understanding of his actual, quite complex, political positioning.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 5, 2022 11:53:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 12:00:56 GMT
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Post by graham on Aug 5, 2022 12:05:37 GMT
You assume too much. I can speak for myself.
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Post by Mark on Aug 5, 2022 12:13:13 GMT
Burley's question about a single mother earning 10k a year struggling Truss - reverse NI rise Burley- she's under the threshold Truss - cut corporation tax ha ha ha Surely people's brains work, no? Hahahaha......that was classic! Truss may be able to parrot her big ideas (and to me, compared with the early debates, it's obvious she's had coaching), but, go off script even slightly and she hasn't got a clue. Simply put, she just can't do it. I found her performance last night not only weak, but, weasly, defensive and at times less than honest. How the hell is she so far in the lead? I'm not saying I want Sunak, far from it, some of the things he came out with gave me the chills, eg on immigration and talk of 'leftie lawyers', as well as his proposal for fining people for missing NHS appointments, but, compared to Truss, he was assured, fluent, seemed to know his stuff and could think on his feet. Sunak should be walking this. Also, something I never thought I'd say, even a couple of years ago, Sky have made a far, far better fist of the debate than the BBC.
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Post by Mark on Aug 5, 2022 12:17:31 GMT
Truss's "I was misinterpreted" seems to be a stock answer when she has no real reply. It reminds me of the phrase: "that would be ecumenical matter". (If you know, you know!) Brilliant! You have just become the winner of today's internet!
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 5, 2022 12:24:18 GMT
I see that the parents of Archie Battersbee have been refused permission to move him to a hospice on the basis that moving him involved 'a significant risk.' This appears rather bizarre - indeed callous - given that the hospital is intending to withdraw the support currently being provided. Some doctors have stated that Archie is already brain dead - if so , how does any risk arise? Absolutely. It seems like pure spite on the part of the hospital. I’m assuming this comment is another example of your particular brand of “humour”.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 12:29:52 GMT
You assume too much. I can speak for myself. Great. I look forward to your changed verdict on the Hospital Staff. Who, by the way, make their decisions based on the consensus of a large number of multi-disciplined and dedicated professionals which, in this case, was also supported by a judge. All of which information has been widely available to the public before your previous comments and “liking” Mercian’s bizarre accusation of “spite.”
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 12:31:22 GMT
Absolutely. It seems like pure spite on the part of the hospital. I’m assuming this comment is another example of your particular brand of “humour”. Well, graham “liked” it so probably not.
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Post by graham on Aug 5, 2022 12:53:06 GMT
I’m assuming this comment is another example of your particular brand of “humour”. Well, graham “liked” it so probably not. You increasingly appear to be a rather 'bitter and twisted' old man.
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Post by JohnC on Aug 5, 2022 12:53:52 GMT
Logic fail here from our Liz here: "There are too many people in this country who are ashamed of our history, who talk our country down, who say the best days are behind us." So if you are 'ashamed of our history' how do you think 'our best days are behind us'? The only way not to be ashamed of parts of UK history is to be ignorant of it, as many are. Can anyone truly say they are proud of the slave trade, the opium wars, the Tasmanian genocide, the Irish and (multiple) Indian famines caused by British policy, the Amritsar massacre, the Boer War concentration camps, the gas bombing of Iraqi Kurds in the 1920s - the list of horrors goes on and on. I'm not saying the UK hasn't also done good in the world but whitewashing the past won't help you understand why so many ex-colonial countries are cynical about British self-image. What has the UK done good in the world? Presumably it would be a very short list. Why do those cynical ex-colonial countries want to keep close ties to the UK through the Commonwealth? Would they not benefit economically with closer ties to China?
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Post by graham on Aug 5, 2022 13:05:44 GMT
Thank you - I am grateful for that and have now read the judgement in its entirety. I am a layman on these issues, but the medical opinions expressed appear to rather run counter to the view expressed earlier that Archie is effectively 'already dead.' Moreover, given that it is the clear intent of the Hospital authorities to withdraw support - the effect of which will be to bring about his death, I fail to understand the concern that risks associated with conveying him by ambulance to a hospice might bring that about. Why does it matter whether Archie passes away in hospital - in an ambulance - or at a hospice?He is at the very least deeply comatose - and in the opinion of some medical experts 'already dead.'In those circumstances - and given the intent of the Hospital authorities to withdraw treatment and so bring about death- the wishes of the family seem paramount.
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Post by alec on Aug 5, 2022 13:07:32 GMT
jib - "There's whitewashing the past and there's realising there's no need to apologise for the actions of generations long gone 6ft under the ground. The values the nations of the UK project across the World are overwhelmingly positive, and let's deal with the here and now." Yes, up to a point. I don't feel personally ashamed of the actions of the British government during the Irish famine, for example, or any of the other dreadful chapters in the history of Anglo-Irish relations. Equally, it would be daft not to recognise the awareness and sensibilities of this history when engaging with Irish affairs today. So the casual adoption by Brexiters, including Rees-Mogg, of the notion that we could solve the Irish border issue by Ireland re-joining the UK, for example, is one area where a little bit of humility about our past can go a long way to avoid political faux pas like that one.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 5, 2022 13:12:27 GMT
I see Sunak in the dumb and dumberer contest has polished up his attempt to win the award for biggest wingnut with his interesting take on Robin Hood.
The 271st richest man in the UK admits he thinks it's a great achievement to take from the poor and give to the rich, oddly enough the Tories seemed to object to him saying this despite it being party policy for at least the last forty years.
On the inheritance tax debate I managed to just avoid any on my dad's estate probably because it consisted of a bag full of old taps and a funeral bill.
I just love it when those discussing middle class family inheritance bandy around amounts which 95%+ of the population won't ever see other than by a win on the lottery.
That's not " middle class" it's the rich whinging about paying anything on freebies provided by dead relatives.
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Post by alec on Aug 5, 2022 13:15:15 GMT
mercian - "Absolutely. It seems like pure spite on the part of the hospital." Is it? Firstly, it is the decision of an independent High Court judge, so not the hospitals, and second, the decision is being made in the best interests of the child, something that parents aren't always able to appreciate in such circumstances. In this case, their child is already effectively dead, but they are seeking his transfer to a hospice so they can have a goodbye ceremony that they wish for. This has no bearing on their child's wellbeing, but is something wanted by and for the family. I guess the question you should be asking is whether transferring such a fragile young body from a highly equipped and expertly staffed hospital unit in an ambulance patently not geared up for such sensitive procedures is sensible, from the child's point of view. What if he is still capable of feeling pain, and the journey in the ambulance goes wrong? Who is being spiteful then? I'll wager you haven't read through the evidence presented in court, and that if you did, you wouldn't understand it, yet you seem to be happy to deride the doctors who do this stuff every day as 'spiteful'. Maybe you need to sit back and let processes work through, and trust the experts a little more?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 13:21:20 GMT
Re Starmer: it is not the opposition's role to provide a full programme of how to deal with the crisis: that's the government's role. His real problem is labour unrest in the face of falling living standards & the proliferation of current & future strikes among transport workers, barristers!, teachers etc, etc. Strikes will be cast by the Tories & the gutter press as a Labour disease & he will not be able to stay aloof - claiming that the opposition does not get involved in industrial action - in what promises to be a 2nd Winter of Discontent. I think this is different. The BoE forecasts show an economy with , as Sunak said, the "lights flashing red". Flashing on two factors-Recession + Inflation.-ie Stagflation. They both have to be fixed, but in this instance it is inflation which is the greater problem because it is so centred on energy costs , which disproportionately affect the lower paid. I saw a Sky comparison with the 70s inflation -which this is becoming comparable with. The increase in the proportion of disposable incomes taken by energy cost increases is a multiple of the same factor back then. Ordinary citizens are going to struggle very very badly without state support through this winter-and who knows how far beyond. This state of affairs may still be extant come the next GE. imo it is incumbent on the LOTO to say what support he would give. Waffle on about policy on growth by all means. But on COL this winter and next year-every political leader has a responsibility to say what they would do. And if Starmer wants my vote next time around he has to start giving me a reason .
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Post by wb61 on Aug 5, 2022 13:23:35 GMT
Thank you - I am grateful for that and have now read the judgement in its entirety. I am a layman on these issues, but the medical opinions expressed appear to rather run counter to the view expressed earlier that Archie is effectively 'already dead.' Moreover, given that it is the clear intent of the Hospital authorities to withdraw support - the effect of which will be to bring about his death, I fail to understand the concern that risks associated with conveying him by ambulance to a hospice might bring that about. Why does it matter whether Archie passes away in hospital - in an ambulance - or at a hospice?He is at the very least deeply comatose - and in the opinion of some medical experts 'already dead.'In those circumstances - and given the intent of the Hospital authorities to withdraw treatment and so bring about death- the wishes of the family seem paramount.
As the law stands section 1 of the Children Act 1989 mean that the best interests of the child are the paramount consideration (paramount in law meaning those interests outweigh all other interests however much they weigh cumulatively) the Judge therefore has no choice but to look to those interests. In law the child is not dead until there is a death certificate, that cannot happen, despite brain stem death, until bodily death. Part of the best interests of the child are are dignity, however the Judge found on the evidence that there was a significant risk to dignity in that rather than remaining in situ where withdrawal of treatment would occur there was a danger of catastrophic collapse and bodily death in the transfer, in those circumstances the child's dignity was at significant risk in the transfer. You may not agree with the law but the Judge applied it correctly.
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