eor
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Post by eor on May 13, 2022 23:28:08 GMT
It's all a bit Groucho Marx isn't it oldnat - so often those who want it enough to get it should be disqualified anyway. |
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Post by JohnC on May 13, 2022 23:59:33 GMT
Oo, oo, can I join mister? I'd have great fun selecting the most unsuitable candidates possible! đ¤Ł
Though, to be fair, all parties seem incapable of weeding out the real shits.Weeding out the 'real shits' seems to be what Starmer, according to jimJam, is trying to do, though I suspect he will not be wholly successful. Anyway sometime the utterances of those 'real shits' does add to the gaiety of the nation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 0:11:40 GMT
domjg As I said, they fall out AFTER they get power. That's the difference. So far 30 of the last 43 years including the last 12 and counting. I'm not greatly enamoured of the latest incarnation and didn't vote for them at the last GE, but I just observe that they are more effective at getting and retaining power and if Labour want it they should try to discover why. As my wise old history master inculcated in me 50 years ago, this country (he meant the UK) is essentially small 'c' conservative. Hence, for a majority LAB government to be elected, the stars really have to align in a very specific way. Postwar, it has only really happened in cathartic moments, and with a formidable LAB offering in the shape of Attlee, Bevin etc. (1945), Wilson, Healey etc., and then only just, (1964) and Blair, Brown in 1997. Everything really has to fall in place for this to happen, including, ideally, an incumbent government which seems intent on self-destruction. Well, we've got that bit in spades at th moment. It's just a pity that LAB seems unable to sort its sh*t to take advantage of such bounty. Until it does, and in a way that doesn't frighten the horses in the wider electorate, the current navel-gazing will serve only to encourage indifference in voters and make the return of a CON government in 2023/4 a more likely occurrence. |
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Post by joeboy on May 14, 2022 0:44:35 GMT
This country, he meant England Mercian. Scotland hasn't been Tory since the 50s and I don't think Wales was ever Tory. As for NI I don't think the average English person knows anything about the place or it's politics.
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Post by robbiealive on May 14, 2022 1:26:18 GMT
Thanks for your reply, Crossbat. I recall some complaint from you about Corbyn on here, rather than urging people to back him, and thatâs the thing really. There was a lot of the right of the party on here complaining about Corbyn rather than urging people to vote for him. Crossbat summed up the position of Labour supporters pretty well. The members stupidly voted Corbyn in 2015 in a fit of hubris imagining that the members not the voters selected the government. Corbyn was discused honestly on here by LPs because it's a bl--dy discussion site & what is said has no influence on anything least of all the number of people who vote Labour. It's not a canvassing/rallying point. Ok. What did you do to stop Brexit & keep the Tories out of power, or do you think we have landed in a good place. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 14, 2022 1:31:54 GMT
PS Guymonde summed it up as well & possibly others. Actually it's not that hard to do so.
We all got sick of Corbyn between 2017 & '19 & he should have resigned after losing in the 2016 Ref -- tho he probably thought he had won! -- & 2017 despite a credtable performance in the latter.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 14, 2022 2:22:34 GMT
Thanks for your reply, Crossbat. I recall some complaint from you about Corbyn on here, rather than urging people to back him, and thatâs the thing really. There was a lot of the right of the party on here complaining about Corbyn rather than urging people to vote for him. Crossbat summed up the position of Labour supporters pretty well. The members stupidly voted Corbyn in 2015 in a fit of hubris imagining that the members not the voters selected the government. Corbyn was discused honestly on here by LPs because it's a bl--dy discussion site & what is said has no influence on anything least of all the number of people who vote Labour. It's not a canvassing/rallying point. Ok. What did you do to stop Brexit & keep the Tories out of power, or do you think we have landed in a good place. I am not arguing that people should or shouldnât campaign for this or that. instead itâs just looking at how some wonder why the left on here arenât bigging up Starmer in order to stop letting Tories in, but yet those wondering might nonetheless be ok with the right not fawning over Corbyn, and were ok with the MPs attacking Corbyn and letting Tories in. Given these activists are on here talking politics so much, itâs not unreasonable to ask if they actually said much good about Corbyn on here, or indeed his policies. It would be good to know the arguments. Including for those campaigning. Asking about Starmerâs policies as well tends to draw a blank. Some people are also wondering why the left donât see things the same way as the right. E.g. why not at least back Starmer if heâs at least a bit less bad than the Tories. But to the left, if itâs a choice between pulling up the ladder a bit more slowly under right wing Labour, versus fighting for the chance to bring the ladder back down within reach again under a more left wing arrangement⌠Another way of looking at it, is Brexit. Some argue Remainers preferred to hold out for the chance of stopping Brexit, rather than accepting a soft Brexit. Itâs not unusual to hold out for something better if you think the compromise position isnât good enough, still makes things considerably worse, if a bit less worse. And some Remainers say they are quite ok with a hard Brexit to show how bad they think it is. You might find that similarly, some are ok with letting the Tories in to show some of the Labour right how bad it is to let the Tories in rather than properly backing the left when itâs their turn. Regarding Brexit, I am still undecided about whether we should be in or out. Regarding keeping parties in or out of power, that seems maybe more of an activist mindset and not the way I tend to approach these things. I am only considering it because others have brought it up. I am more concerned that better policies get adopted whoever is in power. For example, itâs a relief that even under the Tories now, we donât have quite the same fervour for Austerity like we did in 2010. P.s. seem to recall you not being too impressed in the past on the old board at the way some werenât giving Corbyn much backing? p.p.s. You can influence someone on social media or on the doorstep. Why would you think online doesnât count? And if you think it doesnât, why even bother arguing about it? |
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Post by jimjam on May 14, 2022 6:47:11 GMT
John C,
''Weeding out the 'real shits' seems to be what Starmer, according to jimJam, is trying to do,''
An interesting reading of my comments, I would rather see it wanting the cream to emerge but interpretation is in the gift of the reader so will respect yours, :-)
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Post by hireton on May 14, 2022 7:12:00 GMT
The Quibbler is in fine form today.
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steve
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Post by steve on May 14, 2022 7:14:20 GMT
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Post by hireton on May 14, 2022 7:16:27 GMT
The trouble with selecting a lawyer who gives you the advice you want to hear is that you don't get the advice you need to hear:
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 7:56:29 GMT
I've never understood the logic that dictates a political party should represent the views of people who didn't vote for it, and ignore the people who did.
Surely a political party has to appeal to both those who habitually vote for it as well as those who don't to be successful? Was that not a lesson of the 2019 election? My understanding of a political party is that it is an association of like minded people who get together to campaign for the same big idea, and thus seek to persuade other people to also support that big idea.
In 2010 should UKIP have " learnt the lessons " of the general election and supported membership of the EU?
In 2014 should the SNP have "learnt the lessons" of the referendum and supported Scotlands continued participation in the Union ?
After numerous general elections should the Green Party have "learnt the lessons" and supported an economy based on the use of fossil fuels ?
What is the Labour Party's big idea ?....... 'cause i'm damned if i can figure out what it is.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 14, 2022 8:23:23 GMT
Surely a political party has to appeal to both those who habitually vote for it as well as those who don't to be successful? Was that not a lesson of the 2019 election? My understanding of a political party is that it is an association of like minded people who get together to campaign for the same big idea, and thus seek to persuade other people to also support that big idea.
In 2010 should UKIP have " learnt the lessons " of the general election and supported membership of the EU?
In 2014 should the SNP have "learnt the lessons" of the referendum and supported Scotlands continued participation in the Union ?
After numerous general elections should the Green Party have "learnt the lessons" and supported an economy based on the use of fossil fuels ?
 What is the Labour Party's big idea ?....... 'cause i'm damned if i can figure out what it is.
For a party that aspires to government, esp with fptp a party needs to appear to represent the greatest cross section possible of the population. What you suggest might make more sense for a small party in a country like the Netherlands or Germany with PR but not here. Sure a party needs some guiding principles but I think what you suggest is as fundamental misunderstanding of how British politics works. Ukip functioned as no more than a pressure group to a much larger party and never won representation in our system. Labour is the only possible alternative gvt. Very, very different. Labour's role as the official opposition is so important in our society that in a sense it belongs to us all not just a 'like-minded' few. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 8:37:20 GMT
What is the Labour Party's big idea ?....... 'cause i'm damned if i can figure out what it is.
Why does there have to be a "Big Idea"?. Do you think the Public craves a "Big Idea" ? Do you think that there really are any "Big Ideas" worth the paper they are scribbled on ? Supposing the Public just want an Ordinary Idea-like encouraging economic growth in a mixed economy ,and taxation used to provide public services in a fair society with an education system enabling social mobility .? An Ordinary Idea which actually works ? |
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Post by caroline on May 14, 2022 8:58:20 GMT
domjg/colin left and right agreeing here?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 9:00:04 GMT
What is the Labour Party's big idea ?....... 'cause i'm damned if i can figure out what it is.
Why does there have to be a "Big Idea"?. Do you think the Public craves a "Big Idea" ? Do you think that there really are any "Big Ideas" worth the paper they are scribbled on ? Supposing the Public just want an Ordinary Idea-like encouraging economic growth in a mixed economy ,and taxation used to provide public services in a fair society with an education system enabling social mobility .? An Ordinary Idea which actually works ? Then why have a Labour Party at all ? .. why not just appoint a government of technocrats to run the economy, much like the Bank of England?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 9:10:18 GMT
Then why have political parties at all ? why have elections ? .. why not just appoint a government of technocrats to run the economy, much like the Bank of England?
I think people want more than that
Because those simple but fundamental things require choices to be made in policy making. For example-what constitutes a "fair" society ; the balance of state/private sector mix in a mixed economy ; the appropriate education system -are all a question of choices and preferences. Thats where the political philosophy, and with it the Party Manifestos come in. Actually I think People want pretty much what I suggested and are very suspicious of Snake Oil Salesmen with the next Big Idea. Remember -most people spend most of their time living their lives and coping with its demands-not worrying about politics. |
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Post by johntel on May 14, 2022 9:13:16 GMT
What is the Labour Party's big idea ?....... 'cause i'm damned if i can figure out what it is.
Why does there have to be a "Big Idea"?. Do you think the Public craves a "Big Idea" ? Do you think that there really are any "Big Ideas" worth the paper they are scribbled on ? Supposing the Public just want an Ordinary Idea-like encouraging economic growth in a mixed economy ,and taxation used to provide public services in a fair society with an education system enabling social mobility .? ? And ministers who are at least competent at their jobs |
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Post by caroline on May 14, 2022 9:14:39 GMT
lakelandlass the Bank of England is a public sector institution that is wholly-owned by the government. Its Governor and directors are appointed by the Government and its remit is to âpromote the public good and benefit of our peopleâ. Who do you think should determine what the public good is and how should they do it?
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 14, 2022 9:18:37 GMT
Why does there have to be a "Big Idea"?. Do you think the Public craves a "Big Idea" ? Do you think that there really are any "Big Ideas" worth the paper they are scribbled on ? Supposing the Public just want an Ordinary Idea-like encouraging economic growth in a mixed economy ,and taxation used to provide public services in a fair society with an education system enabling social mobility .? An Ordinary Idea which actually works ? Then why have a Labour Party at all ? .. why not just appoint a government of technocrats to run the economy, much like the Bank of England?
A lot of the needed broad appeal is not so much about policy detail as about presentation. Other than on Brexit where I think he should have been more clearly on the remain side I had no issue with Corbyn's policies, in 2017 at least (I also voted Labour in 2019).It was his suitability as a leader, public perception of him and his baggage I mainly had a problem with. I think the times are probably more receptive to more radical policy ideas and the Labour 2024 manifesto should hopefully be quite imaginative. The Tories currently have nothing to offer but to spread bile. I agree Labour needs to present itself as the party of imaginative solutions. |
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Post by hireton on May 14, 2022 9:47:49 GMT
The DUP has now prevented even the establishment of the NI Assembly so that it could at least scrutinise and debate issues in the absence of a functioning Executive. The UK Government continues its sabre rattling over the NIP. This long article from Chris Grey sets out the background and current situation re the NIP and is worth reading: chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/05/for-all-bluster-johnson-and-brexiters.html?m=1This article by Tony Connelly is helpful in putting the issue in an international context. www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/0506/1296543-northern-ireland-protocol-analysis/Both expose the way in which the UK Government is being dishonest by saying it is motivated by the need to protect the Good Friday Agreement and for cross community consent ( which clearly did not apply to Brexit the cause of all the problems!). Chris Grey summarises this neatly in his blog by quoting Johnson: "It simply makes no sense now to claim that to be compatible with the GFA it must have the consent of both communities. Indeed in the very same passage that Johnson declared in the Commons that the NIP was fully compatible with the GFA, he criticised the idea âthat it is thought necessary for one side or the other in the debate in Northern Ireland to have a veto on those arrangementsâ (i.e. the NIP) and said that the Brexit referendum itself mandated them. The consent mechanism was and is a majority vote in the NIA rather than a cross-community mechanism and, as the current situation shows, there is no automatic unionist majority in the NIA." |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2022 9:50:09 GMT
The Quibbler is in fine form today. Another wicked âadhomâ  |
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Post by barbara on May 14, 2022 9:52:23 GMT
I do find the internal Labour wranglings amusing. The Tories are a similar broad coalition, which is why we have an essentially two-party system in England. That may be changing (it used to be so across the whole of GB), but that's another discussion. The difference is that most Tories are pragmatists and realise that they need to get power first, and then disagree with each other if necessary. More Labour people are idealists, and this keeps tripping them up because they believe that even slightly different ideas within their own party must be attacked even when they're not in power. The famous Monty Python sketch comes to mind, though I won't bother linking to it yet again. This isn't unique to Labour. It seems to be characteristic of left-wing movements in many countries. I'm by no means knowledgeable on these things, but am I right in thinking that Trotskyites and Marxists and Marxist-Leninists and others are all at daggers drawn? I also find it strange that such ancient names are still used. It's almost like competing religions. Conservatives don't talk about being Peelites or Disraeli-ites. I know a few may still identify as Thatcherite, but she's relatively recent. There is no Churchillian wing as far as I know even if he's respected. Anyway, as some of you say, it's popcorn time. đ I can't believe you wrote that mercian . Have you forgotten the bloody civil war in the Tory party over Brexit that led to the purging of 21 vastly experienced centre right MPs and ex minister pluls numerous defections and which has been continued in the mad Brexit Cabinet chosen by Johnson. And that civil war was going on all through the Blair government years when the Tories were out of power. Also how many competitive cabals existed and continue to exist amongst MPs. Northern Recovery Group, ERG, CRG etc. Oh that some could see ourselves as other see us! |
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Post by caroline on May 14, 2022 9:57:17 GMT
For those interested and those who may have forgotten here are eight Labour Party Policies announced at its 2021 conference in Brighton in September. A lot more to come this year. For those not interested or already aware of these scroll on....
Climate
Pledge to spend ÂŁ28b each year until 2030 on investment in green infrastructure and jobs.
Economy
Scrap âunfairâ business rates and eventually replace them with a system designed to come down harder on online giants â rather than squeezing high street businesses. Labour would launch a new Office for Value for Money to monitor how taxpayer money is being spent.
Housing
Cap the amount of property overseas investors can purchase in new developments â giving first-time local buyers priority.
Change the rules around how large developers contribute towards affordable housing and give councils more powers to buy land for building homes.
Education
Remove the charitable status from private schools â which allows them to pay less tax than other business. With the money raised he would fund educational reform in state schools.
Labour would boost arts and digital funding and offer better careers guidance to children â making work experience compulsory and teaching students about pensions, mortgages and contracts.
Health
Labour would double the current funding for dementia research and would seek to âbuild a national care serviceâ in the image of the NHS.
Crime
A state-run pro bono service to compel firms to offer a certain amount of free legal advice to those who need it and are not eligible for legal aid.
The shadow justice secretary also reiterated Labourâs previous commitments to speed up rape and sexual assault cases, toughen up on street harassment and misogyny.
Restore neighbourhood policing through new police hubs and fight of anti-social behaviour.
Foreign
A ÂŁ35m fund to help British veterans and Afghan interpreters â to provide mental health support services and support.
Place extra controls on the use of British troops and police to train their counterparts abroad to ensure the UK is not offering support to countries abusing human rights.
Devolution
Boost devolution to give local councils greater control over the investment and infrastructure their areas.
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Post by barbara on May 14, 2022 9:59:59 GMT
For those interested and those who may have forgotten here are eight Labour Party Policies announced at its 2021 conference in Brighton in September. A lot more to come this year. For those not interested or already aware of these scroll on.... Climate Pledge to spend ÂŁ28b each year until 2030 on investment in green infrastructure and jobs. Economy Scrap âunfairâ business rates and eventually replace them with a system designed to come down harder on online giants â rather than squeezing high street businesses. Labour would launch a new Office for Value for Money to monitor how taxpayer money is being spent. Housing Cap the amount of property overseas investors can purchase in new developments â giving first-time local buyers priority. Change the rules around how large developers contribute towards affordable housing and give councils more powers to buy land for building homes. Education Remove the charitable status from private schools â which allows them to pay less tax than other business. With the money raised he would fund educational reform in state schools. Labour would boost arts and digital funding and offer better careers guidance to children â making work experience compulsory and teaching students about pensions, mortgages and contracts. Health Labour would double the current funding for dementia research and would seek to âbuild a national care serviceâ in the image of the NHS. Crime A state-run pro bono service to compel firms to offer a certain amount of free legal advice to those who need it and are not eligible for legal aid. The shadow justice secretary also reiterated Labourâs previous commitments to speed up rape and sexual assault cases, toughen up on street harassment and misogyny. Restore neighbourhood policing through new police hubs and fight of anti-social behaviour. Foreign A ÂŁ35m fund to help British veterans and Afghan interpreters â to provide mental health support services and support. Place extra controls on the use of British troops and police to train their counterparts abroad to ensure the UK is not offering support to countries abusing human rights. Devolution Boost devolution to give local councils greater control over the investment and infrastructure their areas. Thanks caroline. Very good post. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 14, 2022 10:37:09 GMT
I have edited yr long post. It needed it, you do ramble (you re not the only one). My response in italics: 1. "And some Remainers say they are quite ok with a hard Brexit to show how bad they think it is. You might find that similarly, some are ok with letting the Tories in to show some of the Labour right how bad it is to let the Tories in rather than properly backing the left when itâs their turn." Never met remainers who wanted a hard Brexit as a punishment exercise. If there are any, they are screwy. Yes there are some Momentum types who think there is no difference between Johnson's Tories & Social Democratic Labour past & present. Balls.
2. "Regarding Brexit, I am still undecided about whether we should be in or out." Bit late to make yr mind up sport. Hate to tell you this, the vote has already happened! You remind me of Corbyn in 2016: standing on the sidelines, polishing his specs, stroking his beard, mumbling 7:10. This is not how you win YES/NO Votes. 3. "Regarding keeping parties in or out of power, that seems maybe more of an activist mindset and not the way I tend to approach these things." Yeh just ignore the Party system. It has only ruled politics for 200 years. Your system is what?4. "For example, itâs a relief that even under the Tories now, we donât have quite the same fervour for Austerity like we did in 2010." They have just announced X00,00 job cuts. For miilions people who rely on OAP pensions or benefits, increase = 3%, Inflation 10%. Some people, not you or me or site members, are experiencing a v harsh austerity.
5. "Seem to recall you not being too impressed in the past on the old board at the way some werenât giving Corbyn much backing?" Honestly don't recall. On the ev of the 2019 election I did try to persuade some friends in the real world who had voted Labour all their long lives not to abstain. They abstained.
5. "You can influence someone on social media or on the doorstep. Why would you think online doesnât count? And if you think it doesnât, why even bother arguing about it?" I do think online counts. But this site is a means of wasting time for weirdos. It has what 150 members & 400 followers. When it has 500,000, or even 50,000, I'll campaign. When has anyone on here changed their political allegiance or in yr case adopted one.Xxx. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 14, 2022 11:04:38 GMT
@robbie
1. Not necessarily as a punishment device, but to try and indicate the folly
2. You donât have to make your mind up if you find itâs too complex and too many variables and unknowns. You may just not vote, rather than guessing/flipping a coin. In terms of voting for parties, quite often people donât get what they were sold anyway. Many complained after voting for the Lib Dems. Others werenât expecting what Blair did, even Johnson has disappointed quite a few of the right. And how often is one vote going to make much difference. Other forms of influence may have more clout. (Like if youâve ever come up with a meme that gets adopted). Also if we are trying to understand polling, it kind of helps to consider positives in favour of a party, leader or issue, not just negatives.
3. Sure. But if the alternative still pulls the ladder up but slower, people may still hold out for something that they think is much better, reverses the trend. (Like how some didnât accept soft Brexit, and risked a hard Brexit by trying for Remain)
4. It isnât necessarily about changing minds here. For example, you can swap ideas to help each other with campaigning etc., or just informing some of us who are interested in the pros as well as the cons. I donât see why it should just be the cons. Or indeed how the activism thing works. In the end, if a Labour activist, why would you mostly just talk negatives about Corbyn? Why wouldnât you talk more of the positives and explain some of the policies as well?
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Post by robbiealive on May 14, 2022 11:06:45 GMT
PS Of course Labour members have a right to argue for a much lefter Labour party: but their "Blair was just another Tory" is rubbish
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 14, 2022 11:09:00 GMT
PS Of course Labour members have a right to argue for a much lefter Labour party: but their "Blair was just another Tor" is rubbish Another reason why itâs useful to consider policy instead of just the personality politics. Which applies to Corbyn too. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 14, 2022 11:10:06 GMT
pjw1961 "Oh for something similar between Lab, Green, PC and Lib Dem here." That might be the only route to a (combined) overall majority, but would such a coalition hold for long if they did win? Also, I think Labour often turn down these sort of arrangements because they are under the delusion that they can win on their own. And if they are already fighting amongst themselves how are they going to work with other parties? As you said, the Tories manage to be united long enough to get into power and then do their falling out afterward so that's not inherently an issue. Also, the French left I was commenting on are at least as fractious as the British left, in fact considerably more so, but have managed to agree. The realities that their division keeps leading to a situation where the only choices are Macron or Le Pen and millions of people are effectively unrepresented has finally dawned on them. However, do I think it will happen in the UK? - No. There are lots of reasons for this but the main one is that the bedrock of any such alliance would have to be the introduction of proportional representation and unfortunately the dinosaurs in the PLP and Trade Union movement are still blocking it. They are happy to swap decades of opposition for the chance of supreme unfettered power on the odd occasion when the stars align for a Labour government. |
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