c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 21, 2021 20:14:03 GMT
Nobody present was persuaded to change their views , but all did agree with my assertion that there has been far less dramatic change since 1967 than in the same period prior to that year - ie life changed far more dramatically on a day to day basis 1912 - 1967 than from 1967 - to the present day. I would be interested to read the opinions of other on this! There were indeed big developments 1912 - 1967 - the jet engine, nuclear power, washing machines and fridges, radio and TV, the Talkies, antibiotics, discovery of DNA, tape recording, electronics, rockets and space flight and satellites etc… only 6% of homes had leccy in 1919 compared with two thirds by the end of the thirties. Not so big on synths though. A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. There were some not so good things, like the atom bomb, trench warfare etc. |
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Dec 21, 2021 20:26:15 GMT
Nobody present was persuaded to change their views , but all did agree with my assertion that there has been far less dramatic change since 1967 than in the same period prior to that year - ie life changed far more dramatically on a day to day basis 1912 - 1967 than from 1967 - to the present day. I would be interested to read the opinions of other on this! There were indeed big developments 1912 - 1967 - the jet engine, nuclear power, washing machines and fridges, radio and TV, antibiotics, discovery of DNA, tape recording, electronics, rockets and space flight and satellites etc… only 6% of homes had leccy in 1919 compared with two thirds by the end of the thirties. Not so big on synths though. A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. What about tea bags & instant coffee? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 21, 2021 20:26:38 GMT
You'd think there was going to be a GE next year..... Before matters get disastrously worse than they are now, perhaps? Danny The key thing is exposure. Most exposure via vaccine. Yes, it will wane, the booster campaign is about stimulating immunity. Not with you squire, the people from pfizer expect its ability to prevent infection to fade after three months just it has for dose 2. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 21, 2021 20:27:34 GMT
There were indeed big developments 1912 - 1967 - the jet engine, nuclear power, washing machines and fridges, radio and TV, antibiotics, discovery of DNA, tape recording, electronics, rockets and space flight and satellites etc… only 6% of homes had leccy in 1919 compared with two thirds by the end of the thirties. Not so big on synths though. A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. What about tea bags & instant coffee? evil things |
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 21, 2021 20:29:55 GMT
tancred said in ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/4993/thread"I wish Cable was still LibDem leader. I have a lot of time for him - a man of great intellect and astuteness. Sadly, age discrimination is a fact of life in every party." Agreed. The shame is that he did not stand for leader in 2006 when Charles Kennedy (also someone I had a lot of time for) was forced out or in 2007 after Menzies Campbell's short leadership. Had he stood in 2007, I think there is no argument that he would have won and the Coalition years might have been very different.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 21, 2021 20:35:46 GMT
graham Nobody present was persuaded to change their views , but all did agree with my assertion that there has been far less dramatic change since 1967 than in the same period prior to that year - ie life changed far more dramatically on a day to day basis 1912 - 1967 than from 1967 - to the present day.Persoanlly, I would stongly argue that there has been more significant change post '67, to name but a few: - Womens emanicpation - in the west at least, this has been one of the most signifncant changes in human history
- International politics - re-emergence of China to its key position after 250 years of playing second fiddle to the west
- Domestic politics - possiblilty UK could cease exist, end of political deference, breakdown of class based politics etc etc
- Food - massive cahnge in the UK in terms of access to food types/range in supermarkets and restaurants
- Domographic change in the UK
- Technological change - computers/mobilephones/internet/information/date flows etc
- The end of the 'nuclear family' and industrial society since the 1980's - children are literally growing up in a different world to previous generation
- Also in the UK the number of pubs and the role they play in society has changed dramtaiclly since 1967
Asked a mate of mine who is a student of history. His immediate reaction was secularisation of society in the earlier period plus the complete change in attitude as we ceased to see ourselves as rulers of an empire. Plus industrialisation and a paradigm shift in the role of women, even if the effects of this only played out later. So the earlier period saw far more fundamental change.
This was my instinct too, that the loss of empire was the key change. But I am inclined not to see how very important the church was still in 1912. The two world wars caused a general revolt of the ruled in Britain. In 1912 Britain was arguably 'first amongst equals', or maybe in the dominant position the US holds now, in a select band of European imperial nations which controlled the world. By 1967 that was totally shattered. Its only the Eu which has started to rebuild Europe's previous pre-eminent position in world affairs. While European nations were deadly rivals, they still all agreed about European exceptionalism. Brexiteers dont seem to understand how untenable British independence from some larger organisation has become, though of course it was untenable in 1900 too but it was out empire which was the larger entity.
A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. Though the mainframe electronic computer was functional by 1945. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 20:37:51 GMT
There were indeed big developments 1912 - 1967 - the jet engine, nuclear power, washing machines and fridges, radio and TV, antibiotics, discovery of DNA, tape recording, electronics, rockets and space flight and satellites etc… only 6% of homes had leccy in 1919 compared with two thirds by the end of the thirties. Not so big on synths though. A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. What about tea bags & instant coffee? The Digital watch was invented in 1972! But the Polaroid camera was invented in 1947! You pay your money and take your choice. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 20:40:30 GMT
Oh - and popular music has been soooo much better and diverse since 1967. The growth in genres and sub-cultures in the 1980's, impacting fashion, pop-culture etc
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 21, 2021 20:46:00 GMT
A big development post ‘67 was of course the personal computer. Though the mainframe electronic computer was functional by 1945. bit difficult to get time on it though. (We did have a modem link at school to a uni mainframe in ‘77 though). |
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 21, 2021 20:49:06 GMT
You'd think there was going to be a GE next year..... All together: "I wish it it could be GE every year, ear, ear...." A Van the Man stream of consciousness version of the great Noddy Holder classic: Oh when the snowman brings the snow Oh well he just might like to know He's put a great big smile on Michael Gove's face Well I wish it could be a GE everyday When the voters start voting and the removal lorry is on its way Oh I wish it could be a GE everyday Let the the Tories be gone and Labour hold sway When we're voting in the booth If the clouds of doubt paint it dark Then Sir Keir's rosy cheeks are gonna light your merry way Well I wish it could be a GE every day When the voters start voting and the removal lorry is on its way Oh I wish it could be a GE everyday Let the Tories be out by sun up Why don't you give your vote to Starmer When the Govester brings the snow When the Govester brings the snow When the Govester brings the snow When the Gove... |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 20:50:41 GMT
@ Danny,
As a student of history myself, I would say the change in society concerning the role / oppotunities etc post '67 for women trump everything else (still a long way to go on that one though). Also it depends on how parochial we are being - for the developing/post colonial world the big changes have been since 1967.
p.s. 'industrialisation' (in the west at least) occured in the c18/19s - we are disucssing two periods covering the c20/21s.
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Post by jib on Dec 21, 2021 20:53:19 GMT
@danny
Prevention of infections is probably the main driver of the current vaccination "booster" drive.
However, prevention of death is the raison d'être of the vaccination programme. You cannot deny what a wonderful success that has been.
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Post by hireton on Dec 21, 2021 20:59:13 GMT
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Dec 21, 2021 21:06:17 GMT
I love Susan Calman. Excuse me while I spend an hour sharing the North Pole & Northern Lights with her.
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Post by graham on Dec 21, 2021 21:14:52 GMT
graham Nobody present was persuaded to change their views , but all did agree with my assertion that there has been far less dramatic change since 1967 than in the same period prior to that year - ie life changed far more dramatically on a day to day basis 1912 - 1967 than from 1967 - to the present day.Persoanlly, I would stongly argue that there has been more significant change post '67, to name but a few: - Womens emanicpation - in the west at least, this has been one of the most significant changes in human history
- International politics - re-emergence of China to its key position after 250 years of playing second fiddle to the west
- Domestic politics - possiblilty UK could cease exist, end of political deference, breakdown of class based politics etc etc
- Food - massive change in the UK in terms of access to food types/range in supermarkets and restaurants
- Domographic change in the UK
- Technological change - computers/mobilephones/internet/information/date flows etc
- The end of the 'nuclear family' and industrial society since the 1980's - children are literally growing up in a different world to previous generation
- Also in the UK the number of pubs and the role they play in society has changed dramtaiclly since 1967
Lululemon,
Thanks for that. In answer to some of the points made - -I would argue that women's emancipation was well under way by 1967. They had had the vote since 1918 - and on the same basis as men since 1928.The 1960s was very much the decade of the Sexual Revolution in which 'Women's Lib' played a prominent part. - Plaid Cymru had won its first Parliamentary seat at the July 1966 Carmarthen by election - and Winnie Ewing was about to win Hamilton for the SNP in November 1967. The pressure for Devolution was there and led to the setting up of the Kilbrandon Commission. Political deference was already in decline - public attitudes to Wilson and Heath were far less deferential when compared with Churchill and Attlee. - Demographic change was also clear - as was the decline in the manufacturing sector of the economy in relation to the Services sector. - There has been great technological change - but much of it relates to Communications and the ready provision of optional extras which most - but far from all - of us opt to have. I would now find life difficult without the Internet - and have not switched my television on since Election Night 2017! I know of others though - a few years younger than myself - who have no PC or ready access to the Internet. I myself have little use for mobile phones. I have but a basic model and only carry it on car journeys to guard against mechanical breakdown. -The accessories in motor vehicles have increased massively since 1967 , but its basic essential function - to take us from A to B - remains unaltered.Beyond that the change from a Ford Cortina /Vauxhall Victor/ Morris 1100 to present day models is far less marked when the former are compared with a Ford Model T car from the 1920s - or the Horse & Cart which preceded that! - Supermarkets were pretty well established by 1967 - and Chinese Restaurants and takeaways were becoming quite common. -More generally , returning to 1967 does not take us back to a primitive world in terms of day to day life. Many of the changes relate to developments of what already existed. I would strongly argue though that to move back from 1967 to 1912 would indeed return us to a much more primitive world - no television or radio - very few telephones - air travel non existent - few motor vehicles at all. Above all few homes had electricity or gas installed. Inside bathrooms and hot water were still seen as great luxuries too.
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Dec 21, 2021 21:32:18 GMT
What about tea bags & instant coffee? The Digital watch was invented in 1972! But the Polaroid camera was invented in 1947! You pay your money and take your choice. I seem to remember the digital computer was invented during the second world war. Adverts at the moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 21:46:34 GMT
Arsenal through to semis. Winning the cup will take some doing though.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 21:52:38 GMT
@ graham
Many of the changes relate to developments of what already existed
Well you can say that of the prior period as well - we can always go back to the invention of language and the wheel!
Anyway, but the question was the impact on peoples lives - while a piece of knowledge/decision can be found/made it may take a couple of generations for its effect on people lives in general to be realised. For example, some women may have become enfranchised in 1918, but their lot for the most part was still to be a domestic one way up to 1967. In your pub in 1967, there would still have been areas in which women would not be welcome/able to enter and most would still be at home anyway. Women may have made some gains in WW2 in terms of the work place, but that was savagely curtailed after the war and in 1950's women had been put back into their 'domestic role'. In relation to childcare / job opportunities / etc the gains that have been made have materialised post '67 - and there is still a very long way to go till we actually get equality.
In the 60's the notion that the UK would cease to exist would not have been seen as likely - whereas now it is a distinct possibility.
Some may have seen changes to demograhics coming - but they hadn't happened yet, the actually changes and their impact have largely occured post 70's in terms of age and immigration.
No prior generation has had such easy, continual and quick access to information and communications. Also this is now truly global - I struggle to find such an example of such a rapid change in human history (and in principle as an historian I am as far as you can get from a modern exceptionalist).
There may have been supermarkets - but the range of food types has virtually exploded since the 80's. I very much doubt you would be able to get Choi Sun anywhere outside of China town in '67.
1912 was very far from being primative, it was just an earlier phase of History, as is 1967.
One absolutely massive change that has not been mentioned yet, which does has a massive effect on people lives but they may not be cognisant of it, is capital flows. In the modern economic system it flows far more freely than it ever did in 1967!
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Post by bardin1 on Dec 21, 2021 22:22:03 GMT
Also, a good suggestion from Celtic - that the SPFL should bring forward the winter break to coincide with the crowd restriction period. Doesn't the winter break last three months in Scotland? 😉 The winter break starts when the snow and ice melts, and ends when it comes back again, as any Scots football fan would tell you... My mates and I were arguing that given 500 people are to be allowed in we should be in with a shout as surely they would want 7 grumpy old drunk moaning gits there who've been going as season ticket holders for 58 years to 'support' them rather than newcomers like our Chair Ann Budge and Board members like the mega rich James Anderson and newcomer Gerry Mallon (CEO of Tesco bank), wouldn't they??? |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 22:31:55 GMT
The Digital watch was invented in 1972! But the Polaroid camera was invented in 1947! You pay your money and take your choice. I seem to remember the digital computer was invented during the second world war. Adverts at the moment. The first digital computer pre-dates WWII by at least two -years. Wouldn't have been able to correct you so quickly in 1967. Would probably have to had waited till tomorrow for the library to open, spent a couple of hours digging around etc and then sent you a telegram. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 22:32:48 GMT
All together: "I wish it it could be GE every year, ear, ear...." A Van the Man stream of consciousness version of the great Noddy Holder classic: Oh when the snowman brings the snow Oh well he just might like to know He's put a great big smile on Michael Gove's face Well I wish it could be a GE everyday When the voters start voting and the removal lorry is on its way Oh I wish it could be a GE everyday Let the the Tories be gone and Labour hold sway When we're voting in the booth If the clouds of doubt paint it dark Then Sir Keir's rosy cheeks are gonna light your merry way Well I wish it could be a GE every day When the voters start voting and the removal lorry is on its way Oh I wish it could be a GE everyday Let the Tories be out by sun up Why don't you give your vote to Starmer When the Govester brings the snow When the Govester brings the snow When the Govester brings the snow When the Gove... That's Wizzard, Noddy Holder was Slade/ |
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Post by mercian on Dec 21, 2021 22:41:15 GMT
Happy Winter's solstice from a very dark and cold PSRL. Yep, days starting to get longer again. The true meaning of Christmas and the reason why Christians appropriated the old festival, even if they were out by a few days. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 21, 2021 22:49:53 GMT
Happy Winter's solstice from a very dark and cold PSRL. Yep, days starting to get longer again. The true meaning of Christmas and the reason why Christians appropriated the old festival, even if they were out by a few days. Ah yes, it all went down hill for the Saxons after they adopted Christianity. Given your new found gender identity I am sure you will be a follower of Eostre! |
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Post by mercian on Dec 21, 2021 22:53:29 GMT
I wonder if I might crave the indulgence of some of you of a certain age! I have always been blessed with a very good memory - particularly in relation to distant events.The downside is that vivid detailed recall of them tends to lull me into feeling they took place 'just a few years ago' or 'quite recently'. In three weeks time I will be 67.5 years old. A few nights ago in a pub discussion with a few friends, I mentioned this - and went on to point out that 67.5 would have been the normal male life expectancy in the UK as late as mid-1967, and further suggested that that was not all that far back. I received the support of one of those present but four others rather dissented. I made my case based on where the world was in mid-1967 - - the Vietnam War was in full swing - Harold Wilson had already been PM for over 2.5 years - we were two thirds through the 'swinging sixties' with the Beatles actually folding within three years - it was barely 2 years before man landed on the moon -domestic appliances were already widespread and we lived in a motorised society - colour TV was imminent - Francis Chichester was at the end of his round the world trip in Gipsy Moth - the 'Permissive Society' had largely arrived as reflected in attitudes to premarital sex etc - attitudes to authority were clearly changing with much less deference evident compared to circa 1957 Nobody present was persuaded to change their views , but all did agree with my assertion that there has been far less dramatic change since 1967 than in the same period prior to that year - ie life changed far more dramatically on a day to day basis 1912 - 1967 than from 1967 - to the present day. I would be interested to read the opinions of other on this! Interesting. My own view is that change is speeding up. This is particularly technology-driven. For instance computers even in big business were an expensive novelty and by no means universal. It's difficult now to imagine any business larger than a sole trader existing without computer assistance. Never mind the more recent developments of smartphones. In 1967 you had to wait months for BT to fit a landline. There were only 3 or 4 TV Channels, no Internet, no satnav. The internet is probably the greatest leap forward since the printing press. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 23:09:17 GMT
YG article covering a few important polling points mentioned on UKPR2 but useful to see in a summary piece:
- '56% of the British public think that they are not ready for Government (while 24% believe that they are)
- Labour still have not managed to make any significant in-roads with the British public regarding who would best handle the economy- 20% of 2019 Conservative voters currently do not know who they would vote for next time, and 5% would abstain. A mere 6% are telling us that they would vote Labour instead- Starmer and Labour’s public opinion profits are clearly built on shaky foundations'yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/21/starmer-and-labour-are-ahead-public-are-not-convinThe question is does Starmer a/ take the polling opportunity to try (if he can) to finish fixing 'internal' issues while the focus is all on 'Anyone But Boris', b/ solidify those 'shaky foundations' with some actual policies (ie create a reason for some of the 20% of DKs from CON'19 to switch to LAB from DK), c/ do nothing and hope CON hold on to Boris as leader into GE'24 with the Corbyn issue magically fixing itself? I'd like to see a/ or b/ but if I was putting money on it then probably c/ (IMO of course). |
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 21, 2021 23:12:52 GMT
@nick P
You are of course right, my good man. It was Roy Wood (Wizzard)and not Noddy Holder (Slade). My only defence is that they're both sort of from the same neck of the woods. Roy a Brummie and Noddy a Black Countryman but no real excuse for mistaking the two Christmas classics. I got Van Morrison right though, didn't I??
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Post by mercian on Dec 21, 2021 23:16:09 GMT
Yep, days starting to get longer again. The true meaning of Christmas and the reason why Christians appropriated the old festival, even if they were out by a few days. Ah yes, it all went down hill for the Saxons after they adopted Christianity. Given your new found gender identity I am sure you will be a follower of Eostre! I was just asking a question, not actually making a choice! 🙂 Anyway, I am interested about how Christianity took over/merged with pagan practices. For instance, a few years ago we visited Spreyton in the middle of Dartmoor where some of my ancestors were from (including Peter Davey from the 'Uncle Tom Cobley' song). We visited the old church and saw a memorial plate to one of my great-uncles killed in WWI, but what was particularly interesting to me was that the bosses on the wooden trusses holding up the roof had pagan images such as the Green Man and the three hares. I make no judgement on the validity of the various beliefs, just interested in the overlap. Christmas trees, reintroduced by Albert have no Christian meaning and certainly not mistletoe! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 23:22:02 GMT
Brand Rishi deciding not to be Scrooge (although it's clearly never enough and/or too late in some people's opinion): Covid: Rishi Sunak announces £1bn fund for businesses[1] www.bbc.com/news/uk-59742884From latest R&W then: New largest lead for Sunak over Johnson for better PM.
At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better PM for the UK? (20 Dec)
Rishi Sunak: 36% (-1)
Boris Johnson: 27% (-2)
(which beats Starmer 35% to Boris 34%) also All Net Approval Ratings (20 Dec):
Rishi Sunak: +11% (-4)
Saj: -2% (-3)
Keir Starmer: -8% (-)
Truss: -8% (-1)
Boris Johnson: -29% (-7)
Patel: -34% (+1)
Source: twitter.com/RedfieldWilton?[1] As per comments on issue specific threads then what about help for businesses facing the massive spike in global energy prices who IMO are at least as deserving of 'help' as hospitality businesses although I respect that is not as 'headline grabbing'. The socio-economic cost of Coronaphobia hysteria mentioned on the Issue Specific thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 23:26:38 GMT
My favourite infographic from R&W is the one below (find it on their twitter feed if you can't see the info). Be nice if they showed some arrows to show how much those have moved away from Boris (and hence 'to' Starmer by default) but folks can track the R&W info from a few months ago to see how big some of those moves are. Boris is still just ahead on two salient/important issues but with a drastically reduced lead
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 21, 2021 23:30:32 GMT
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