8-Dec-2021 : LAB: 40 / CON: 34 / LDEM: 10 / GRN: 4

[barbara]

You won't like my stuff, Barbara. If it hasn't got at least 6 paragraphs, runs to a minimum of a thousand words and contains no less than 150 multi-syllabic words, then it isn't worth posting!

Well I liked that one Crossbatt. Nice and short. Following Crofty's advice you should really split them into shorter bits and post each consecutively. Then you'll be on 4 stars in no time!

To be honest long posts are not a problem. I scan them and if they're interesting I read them fully, if not I scroll on past, as I suspect other posters do with mine.  

[barbara]

Dec 21, 2021 12:55:59 GMT colin said:

barbara

@" but using so-called humour as a cover for quite unpleasant pokes at people is not."

Do you mean like this ?:-

"Q: What do you call a right wing humourist?

A: An oxymoron"

or is that OK with you?-Just trying to understand your point of view .
Thanks

You're at your games again Colin. I have the measure of you. A seemingly innocuous polite post designed to elicit discomfort and or make someone feel on the defensive. I'm not playing.

I repeat what I have said before. I think that posts stereotyping lefties and righties are unhelpful. 

[Deleted]

Re the sense of humour/irony thing. If you check out the story today about Laura Murray (Corbyn’s aide) having to pay £10,000 damages to Rachel Riley, you will see that the hard left aren’t very good at spotting ironic humour either.

She defamed Riley because she took a re-tweet that she had posted - with obvious irony - to be serious and proceeded to tweet pretty nasty insults towards her.

And re booming laughter when there are crowds that is really prevalent with large groups in pubs, golf clubs etc. It comes over as very false and bloody irritating.

“I’ve just met my mates so, no matter what is said, we must all bellow (or scream, according to sex) to demonstrate what a great time we’re all having.”

I have always preferred small groups, both socially and musically.

[barbara]

I have always preferred small groups, both socially and musically.

Me too.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2021 13:17:59 GMT robert said:

Dec 21, 2021 12:55:59 GMT colin said:

barbara

@" but using so-called humour as a cover for quite unpleasant pokes at people is not."

Do you mean like this ?:-

"Q: What do you call a right wing humourist?

A: An oxymoron"

or is that OK with you?-Just trying to understand your point of view .
Thanks

Quite clearly the problem is that you and I, probably turk and mercian don't hold views acceptable to those who dominate on this board. I would agree that the word banter is not one of my favourites but it seems to have drifted over from the building sites during the last decade and is now part of urban language. Hitherto we would have referred to someone as having a quick wit. 

Yes-the divide on UKPR  is nothing to do with the nature of the humour, its a function of the poster's objectives .

The ability , or desire actually, to converse civilly at all times across the political divide was always a Holy Grail on UKPR which very few of us can truly say was really achieved-certainly not by me . And actually the expression of political preferences and dislikes is no big problem for me. Its in the DNA of a board like this. Tory politicians are going to get hammered just now.

But there was ( and apparently still is )  a  small group who wanted to express  their tribal dislikes in a personalised way about another poster-constantly baiting and looking for a row.

In terms of the political balance,  ROC contributors just have to grin and bare it i guess. At least we have the stats now to calculate the numbers now !

 

[alec]

mercian - "Or - if this version is as mild as it appears to be so far, the best way to minimise disruption is to let it rip and forget about isolation if you've got it. Very difficult decision to make. I'm just glad someone else has to make it, and I'm not surprised the cabinet is divided."

I think this is a difficult call, although most experts tends to agree (as far as I can see) that we don't know yet if it is milder or not. There are many confounding factors. Assuming it isn't would be the safer option, but whatever, my original point still stands: whether or not it is milder, the public are trying to avoid catching it, and that is causing all manner of impacts. That's the central issue here.

[turk]

Colin

Q
How did we know socialism was doomed from the start.

A
All those Red flags.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2021 13:33:28 GMT barbara said:

Dec 21, 2021 12:55:59 GMT colin said:

I repeat what I have said before. I think that posts stereotyping lefties and righties are unhelpful. 

It wasn't a game Barbara.

You set out some principles with regard to contributions here.

I wanted to understand them by reference to a specific example.

No need to feel discomfort or defensive. On UKPR there is a long tradition of posters being asked what they really mean-as I know to my cost.

Thank you for your answer which I agree with.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2021 13:44:26 GMT James E said:

It's interesting to note the changes in Johnson's approval rating among Conservative voters, since the peak of his popularity 7 months ago (YouGov 10/5/21)

"Do you think that Boris Johnson is doing well or badly as Prime Minister?" (Conservative voters' sample)

Very Well 8% (-28)
Fairly Well 39% (-12)

Fairly Badly 33% (+26)
Very Badly 17% (+14)

So a 40-point swing from doing well to badly among his own supporters compared to May of this year.


to add - taking the whole polling sample, Johnson's ratings were 57% Well, 35% Badly in May 2021 (per YG). So Tory voters have turned against him even more (-40%) than voters as a whole (-35%)

It does look very dramatic. I struggle to imagine how he can recover his personal credibility with those voters.

And i can only presume that Con backbenchers watch numbers like this with great interest. At the moment many Tory seats are at risk because of their PM.

[domjg]

Dec 21, 2021 13:18:11 GMT mercian said:

domjg
"She puts it down to a lack of socialisation in childhood of English boys..."

Interesting theory. I've noticed the same phenomenon myself (including in me when younger). Can you elaborate? In what way did she think socialisation was lacking?

mercian - She didn't know, just a guess. Not recently known as someone to always defend things English I felt quite defensive myself as she was telling me this, I guess as I could see what she was getting at. Obviously this is universal behaviour to some extent and when living in Holland for example I definitely saw lads there behaving in the same way but it does seem to be much more of a thing here than elsewhere in Europe at least. If it's partly responsible for English humour then it must have upsides as well I guess.. 
The flipside is that my German friend chooses to live here because it's less communitarian and she finds working life especially too rigidly defined in Germany and values the greater individualism here and greater emphasis on what you can actually do rather than what you have on paper.

[somerjohn]

Colin: ROC contributors just have to grin and bare it i guess.{/i]

Please don't bare it, Colin. Some things are better left to the imagination.

You might also understand my reason for posting about banter, if I explain it.

We see here on UKPR proponents of banter as harmless fun ("Can't you take a joke?"), who take a dig at others (Scots, Germans), as dour and humourless because they don't see the joke.

I wanted to reverse those positions, to see if those same proponents of banter go in for a bit of ROFL when they're on the receiving end.

And as you've helpfully made clear, the answer is a resounding NO.

Incidentally, my joke was about the incongrousness of the idea of right-wing humour. It was a conceptual joke, and unless anywhere posting here identifies strongly as a right-wing humourist (and I'm not aware of anyone who does) it wasn't an ad hom.


Contrast that with Robert's idea of a witty riposte, which boiled down to the ad hom: "you're not half as clever as you think you are."

[barbara]

On UKPR there is a long tradition of posters being asked what they really mean-as I know to my cost.

I know what the traditions on UKPR were Colin. I lurked on there for 6 years. I know how everybody posted and responded. 
I have already explained my views on 'lefty' and 'righty' stuff so you were already clear on that and my post on banter vs witty humour was also clear so I simply couldn't see what additional knowledge you hoped to gain by asking that question. 

[steamdrivenandy]

Dec 21, 2021 13:41:21 GMT alec said:

mercian - "Or - if this version is as mild as it appears to be so far, the best way to minimise disruption is to let it rip and forget about isolation if you've got it. Very difficult decision to make. I'm just glad someone else has to make it, and I'm not surprised the cabinet is divided."

I think this is a difficult call, although most experts tends to agree (as far as I can see) that we don't know yet if it is milder or not. There are many confounding factors. Assuming it isn't would be the safer option, but whatever, my original point still stands: whether or not it is milder, the public are trying to avoid catching it, and that is causing all manner of impacts. That's the central issue here.

Mmmm, yes, Mrs SDA's bestie has just left and whilst here she said that she'd cancelled a dental hygienist appointment that was due today and mentioned several other mutual friends who'd cancelled bookings and appointments. Plus her next door neighbour's large extended family are no longer having their big Christmas Day lunch, but have just divided it up into four separate venues. Who gets the maffis turkey I don't know and rearranging victuals is probably manageable four days out but it would be a right pain on Christmas Eve.

[steve]

Robert
"Quite clearly the problem is that you and I, probably turk and mercian don't hold views acceptable to those who dominate on this board. "



That's really a bit simplistic, personally I find some comments from nearly every contributor having some merit.

While I find some of your ideas anathema to my viewpoint I find them neither acceptable or unacceptable they are your views, sometimes but by no means always they are without factual merit mostly simply down to different interpretations and objectives.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2021 14:20:18 GMT barbara said:

On UKPR there is a long tradition of posters being asked what they really mean-as I know to my cost.

I know what the traditions on UKPR were Colin. I lurked on there for 6 years. I know how everybody posted and responded. 
I have already explained my views on 'lefty' and 'righty' stuff so you were already clear on that and my post on banter vs witty humour was also clear so I simply couldn't see what additional knowledge you hoped to gain by asking that question. 

Thank you.

I clearly irritate you for some reason. Pity.

[shevii]

Dec 21, 2021 10:27:41 GMT crossbat11 said:

A note to the site moderator, Mark. If posters continue to take the name of my beloved Aston Villa in vain I will have little choice other than to request that you grant me dispensation to use, temporarily of course, football terrace language as a suitable riposte to those who continue to offend.

For example, if they're not careful, they may well get their fuc......... (Mark: steady on Crossbat 11, I had to stop you there.) 

Maybe it's time we set up a thread called "Can you hear the Villa sing"....

[leftieliberal]

Vince Cable on Lib Dem prospects in The Independent: www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/lib-dems-coalition-government-north-shropshire-b1979489.html

One of the benefits of being an ex-leader (in this case ex-leader but three) is you can tell people the truth, rather than pretend that your party is going to win a majority at the next GE. Here he is saying that a great result will be the Lib Dems winning another 25-30 seats. It's no coincidence that Gordon Brown (also ex-leader but three) is also listened to when he speaks. Perhaps it's time for a little dullness in politics: after all, the charismatic leaders like Blair, Cameron and Johnson haven't produced good outcomes.

[steamdrivenandy]

Dec 21, 2021 14:37:14 GMT leftieliberal said:

Vince Cable on Lib Dem prospects in The Independent: www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/lib-dems-coalition-government-north-shropshire-b1979489.html

One of the benefits of being an ex-leader (in this case ex-leader but three) is you can tell people the truth, rather than pretend that your party is going to win a majority at the next GE. Here he is saying that a great result will be the Lib Dems winning another 25-30 seats. It's no coincidence that Gordon Brown (also ex-leader but three) is also listened to when he speaks. Perhaps it's time for a little dullness in politics: after all, the charismatic leaders like Blair, Cameron and Johnson haven't produced good outcomes.

I think you're right LL but are English (and I use that title purposefully) ready to give up their celebrity fixation aligning politics alongside HIGNFY and IACGMOOH?

[tancred]

Dec 21, 2021 12:35:41 GMT steve said:

James

Do you think that Boris Johnson is doing well or badly as Prime Minister?

Well: 23% (-6)

Badly: 71% (+7)

Via

@yougov

, 20 Dec.

Changes w/ 22 Nov.

Were the 23% in a medically induced coma for the last two years?

Diehards who would back the proverbial chocolate teapot if it was Tory leader. 

[bantams]

Dec 21, 2021 14:29:27 GMT steve said:

Robert
"Quite clearly the problem is that you and I, probably turk and mercian don't hold views acceptable to those who dominate on this board. "



That's really a bit simplistic, personally I find some comments from nearly every contributor having some merit.

While I find some of your ideas anathema to my viewpoint I find them neither acceptable or unacceptable they are your views, sometimes but by no means always they are without factual merit mostly simply down to different interpretations and objectives.

What??

[tancred]

Dec 21, 2021 14:37:14 GMT leftieliberal said:

Vince Cable on Lib Dem prospects in The Independent: www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/lib-dems-coalition-government-north-shropshire-b1979489.html

One of the benefits of being an ex-leader (in this case ex-leader but three) is you can tell people the truth, rather than pretend that your party is going to win a majority at the next GE. Here he is saying that a great result will be the Lib Dems winning another 25-30 seats. It's no coincidence that Gordon Brown (also ex-leader but three) is also listened to when he speaks. Perhaps it's time for a little dullness in politics: after all, the charismatic leaders like Blair, Cameron and Johnson haven't produced good outcomes.

I wish Cable was still LibDem leader. I have a lot of time for him - a man of great intellect and astuteness. Sadly, age discrimination is a fact of life in every party.

[tancred]

Dec 21, 2021 14:34:54 GMT colin said:

Dec 21, 2021 14:20:18 GMT barbara said:

On UKPR there is a long tradition of posters being asked what they really mean-as I know to my cost.

I know what the traditions on UKPR were Colin. I lurked on there for 6 years. I know how everybody posted and responded. 
I have already explained my views on 'lefty' and 'righty' stuff so you were already clear on that and my post on banter vs witty humour was also clear so I simply couldn't see what additional knowledge you hoped to gain by asking that question. 

Thank you.

I clearly irritate you for some reason. Pity.

You irritate a lot of people, Colin. Don't be surprised.

[bantams]

Dec 21, 2021 14:47:24 GMT tancred said:

Dec 21, 2021 12:35:41 GMT steve said:

James

Do you think that Boris Johnson is doing well or badly as Prime Minister?

Well: 23% (-6)

Badly: 71% (+7)

Via

@yougov

, 20 Dec.

Changes w/ 22 Nov.

Were the 23% in a medically induced coma for the last two years?

Diehards who would back the proverbial chocolate teapot if it was Tory leader. 

I suspect the same might apply to you whichever party it is you support? I certainly wouldn't vote for Keir Starmer if he was the last man on this planet............ah! Thinking the last statement through I wouldn't be able to vote for him under this hypothetical scenario as I wouldn't exist.

I would be a member of the badly brigade as well if I'd been asked.

[domjg]

Dec 21, 2021 14:47:24 GMT tancred said:

Dec 21, 2021 12:35:41 GMT steve said:

James

Do you think that Boris Johnson is doing well or badly as Prime Minister?

Well: 23% (-6)

Badly: 71% (+7)

Via

@yougov

, 20 Dec.

Changes w/ 22 Nov.

Were the 23% in a medically induced coma for the last two years?

Diehards who would back the proverbial chocolate teapot if it was Tory leader. 

tancred steve @james e It would be fun but a definite first in world history if an incumbent leader got 0% saying they were doing well

[tancred]

Dec 21, 2021 13:15:31 GMT domjg said:

On the subject of ‘banter’ some here won’t like this I'm sure but some of my friends from other European countries have what seems to be a widespread theory about it. That many English men especially find social situations stressful even with friends and that there is a need for defensive deflection through joking/banter or being loud and a discomfort with quiet and just hanging out.

One female German friend had recently spent several weeks visiting family in Germany and Holland and on return at the airport she was struck again by groups of men (and women) exhibiting tense, loud, nervous laughter accompanied by uncomfortable body language whereas the equivalent groups of Italian and Dutch lads appeared relaxed and were just quietly enjoying each others company. She said the English can make you feel stressed with their social awkwardness. She puts it down to a lack of socialisation in childhood of English boys especially and a subsequent tendency in English male interaction to aggressive/defensive posturing, physical and/or verbal, to being too ready to see threat.
Having thought about it I can see that I’m not immune to it myself. Obviously it’s not a uniquely English phenomenon but does seem far more pronounced here from what several people from Germany and Italy especially have told me.

I also think heavy drinking (not unusual among young English people) and the loss of inhibitions that comes with it is also an attempt at bolstering self-confidence. You see it in certain seaside resorts in Spain quite a lot. There is a fear of being 'boring' in this country that pushes certain people to needless stupid behaviour - I'd rather people remained boring because at least others can see you for what you are and they have to take you or reject you. It's like being on a date and the other person talks endlessly about themselves in an effort to sound interesting, and failing spectacularly. In some other countries the approach would be: "look, I really fancy you and if you want we can go to the hotel across the road and have some fun" - beats all the pointless talk beforehand.

[bantams]

Employees in Wales now subject to a £60-00 fine if they're found to be working at work when they could be working at home. Good luck with that one! Employers can be fined £10,000 if they prevent employees working at home by making them travel to work. IMO that's a better rule and more enforceable as whistleblowers galore will happily Welsh (see what I did there!) on their bosses.

[crossbat11]

mercian

Your recollection is correct. Not sure about the plane encounter, but Villa Chairman Ellis appointed one of the first non British coaches to ever manage in English football. Circa 1991 and it was Dr Josef Venglos (known as Dr No to the fans) the highly regarded former Coach of Czechoslovakia. He lasted one fairly undistinguished season in which the club flirted with relegation. He was a lovely fellow, and undoubtedly very knowledgeable about the game, but he spoke little English and had little experience of football in this country. Accordingly, it just didn't work out. Legendary tales of him once picking 12 players for a game before having it pointed out to him that the team was possibly a little overmanned and another of him appointing an assistant on the basis of reading his ghost written autobiography (Peter Withe).

His saving grace wasn't just his innate decency, which saved him from the usual supporter derision and abuse heaped on failing Managers, but also he gave us one of the great European nights at Villa Park. We turned over a very strong Inter Milan side 2-0 in the old UEFA Cup. A David Platt wonder goal and much delerium and disbelief on a packed Holte End. Jo had to be helped back to the dressing room after the match. He couldn't believe it either!

[steamdrivenandy]

Dec 21, 2021 15:00:54 GMT tancred said:

Dec 21, 2021 13:15:31 GMT domjg said:

I'll know the sexual revolution has actually happened when it becomes commonplace for women to use that line.

Did you ever try that sort of approach Tancred and if so how long was it 'til the stiches were removed? 

[mandolinist]

Dec 21, 2021 11:37:20 GMT barbara said:

domjg - So do I! It's usually a euphemism for rudeness (or sexism) and when you challenge it you get told it's "just banter and haven't you got a sense of humour". Banter was apparently what was used to excuse the horrendous messages that passed among Wayne Couzen's What's App group.

Jokes are fine and football jokes are even finer if you're interested in that but it's interesting that banter is something that happens between men. I've never heard that term used by or about women's interactions.

(I know I bang on a bit on this board about women but as the only woman on here it's striking how male orientated the whole thing is. It's not in the least objectionable to me 99% of the time but it does occasionally stray into bar room chat. Sorry if I've offended anyone - just think of this comment as banter! ) 

Actually Barbara, you are not the only woman on here. For what it's worth I agree with you, pretty much all the time. Must be the sisterhood!

[barbara]

Dec 21, 2021 15:32:05 GMT mandolinist said:

Dec 21, 2021 11:37:20 GMT barbara said:

domjg - So do I! It's usually a euphemism for rudeness (or sexism) and when you challenge it you get told it's "just banter and haven't you got a sense of humour". Banter was apparently what was used to excuse the horrendous messages that passed among Wayne Couzen's What's App group.

Jokes are fine and football jokes are even finer if you're interested in that but it's interesting that banter is something that happens between men. I've never heard that term used by or about women's interactions.

(I know I bang on a bit on this board about women but as the only woman on here it's striking how male orientated the whole thing is. It's not in the least objectionable to me 99% of the time but it does occasionally stray into bar room chat. Sorry if I've offended anyone - just think of this comment as banter! ) 

Actually Barbara, you are not the only woman on here. For what it's worth I agree with you, pretty much all the time. Must be the sisterhood!

Oh Wow! Fantastic! Delighted to make your acquaintance. That's a great feeling knowing there are two of us. Let's hope there are more who might reveal themselves. It can only be a good thing.