oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Dec 28, 2021 0:29:34 GMT
It is a very respectable position for an Anti-Nationalist to take.
During World War 2 there were members of both Plaid Cymru and the SNP who expressed pro - German sympathies.
There were some who did that 90 years ago, at the same time that many Tories expressed similar views and ex-Labour minister Mosley was creating his fascist organisation. All that was well before my time! However, if such things are important to you, then your choice of voting Tory or Labour in the 3rd decade of the 21st century seems devoid of any rationality, and determined by selective tunnel vision and bigotry. |
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Post by graham on Dec 28, 2021 0:48:15 GMT
It is a very respectable position for an Anti-Nationalist to take.
During World War 2 there were members of both Plaid Cymru and the SNP who expressed pro - German sympathies.
There were some who did that 90 years ago, at the same time that many Tories expressed similar views and ex-Labour minister Mosley was creating his fascist organisation. All that was well before my time! However, if such things are important to you, then your choice of voting Tory or Labour in the 3rd decade of the 21st century seems devoid of any rationality, and determined by selective tunnel vision and bigotry. World War 2 is barely 75 years ago - not 90! Oswald Mosley in his time was a Tory, Independent and Labour MP. He then formed the New Party and - finally - the British Union of Fascists.
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Post by statgeek on Dec 28, 2021 1:04:19 GMT
There were some who did that 90 years ago, at the same time that many Tories expressed similar views and ex-Labour minister Mosley was creating his fascist organisation. Indeed. There's even footage of a rather young lady practising her 'German salute', years before it would catch on as something different, and before she would sit on the throne for 68 years and counting. Now if social media had been a thing in the 1930s, what would they have made of that?  |
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mercian
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Post by mercian on Dec 28, 2021 2:26:20 GMT
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Post by moby on Dec 28, 2021 5:45:08 GMT
There were some who did that 90 years ago, at the same time that many Tories expressed similar views and ex-Labour minister Mosley was creating his fascist organisation. Indeed. There's even footage of a rather young lady practising her 'German salute', years before it would catch on as something different, and before she would sit on the throne for 68 years and counting. Now if social media had been a thing in the 1930s, what would they have made of that? Yes I'd always be wary of using a different historical time to justify a current political view. www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/britain-adolf-hitler-dictator-admiration-appeasement-relationship-britain-germany/ |
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Post by alec on Dec 28, 2021 8:22:12 GMT
mandolinist - it was an attempt at humour, probably not that good an attempt.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 28, 2021 8:30:53 GMT
Jeepers creepers, what just happened in Melbourne in the early hours of this morning??
Mark, we need to urgently open an Ashes post mortem thread, purely for therapeutic purposes!😫🦆🦆🦆
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 28, 2021 8:45:37 GMT
Thanks for that out-of-the-blue post, Mercian. Most Villa fans know of the story about that 1930s tour of Germany. I get a tingle of pride about my beloved old club whenever I think about it. We were much more famous as a club back then than we are now. We've slipped down the pecking order a bit, alas. It reminds me, on a very random basis, of a story my Dad told me about a political rally he attended during, I think, the 1950 general election. It was in the old Digbeth civic hall in Birmingham and it was a Labour rally. As was the case in those great days on the hustings, it was attended by members of the public of all political persuasions. Accordingly, it was pretty lively. During the speech, as the speaker went a bit Marxian dialectic and lost his audience a little, a heckler shouted, "Never mind the working man, what about the Villa!" According to Dad, this produced quite a round of applause and a non-plussed speaker! |
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Post by alec on Dec 28, 2021 8:53:58 GMT
England now seems internationally rather out on a limb with its covid response. Chris Hopson from the NHs trusts organisation has given some reassurance that a large chunk of hospital admissions are 'incidental cases', being admitted for other reasons then being found to be positive, although other medical experts are trying to get the message across that this doesn't necessarily mean covid is not the cause of the admission, as it makes most medical conditions worse.
However, there is a more fundamental problem. Today, the hospitality sector has welcomes the lack of restrictions as a 'lifeline'. This is somewhat bizarre, as pre Christmas they were bemoaning exactly the same conditions - high cases numbers, no official restrictions, loss of consumer confidence and no government support - as being the worst of all worlds. What we are seeing is, in my view, a rinse and repeat of the same category error we have consistently made throughout the course of the pandemic.
The basis of this error has been the repeated framing of the struggle as a binary battle between protecting the economy (and everything else in society - education, mental health etc) or defeating the virus. That is a fundamentally false distinction, which has been demonstrably shown to be false throughout the pandemic. It seems to be based on the dea that the public are simply waiting for government direction before choosing how to behave, whereas all the evidence we have demonstrates that the public responds to the pandemic situation, more than government direction.
To protect the hospitality sector, and the wider economy, you need to reduce the case numbers - it really is that simple. Failure to do so will create the same conditions we had pre Christmas, with businesses having to stay open on a loss making basis as large numbers stay away, but with government claiming everything is fine so no financial support is needed. However, we have, understandably, in some ways, pinned everything instead of the death count and numbers in hospital.
Initially that was chosen as a PR message - "Protect the NHS", because the governemnt didn't believe the public would buy into lockdowns so restrictions were framed as a way to protect the national religion, but this assessment was completely wrong. Early in 2020 we saw on UKPR numerous posts from RoC contributors claiming British people would not accept Italian stye lockdowns, but they were completely wrong. British voters lapped them up, with some extremely high compliance rates. And since then, large numbers of citizens have been responding to high case numbers without waiting for government mandates.
So my view is that this failure to initiate greater public health measures will actively damage the economy, and is thus entirely self defeating. A lesson not learned, because of a dogma that has already been thoroughly debunked by reality. On top of that, we have the continued emergence of evidence that long covid and covis after effects are much more serious than is being assumed, and that these impacts are not featuring at all in government decision making.
The impacts of these poor decisions will rumble on for years, possibly decades.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 28, 2021 9:16:14 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 9:19:28 GMT
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Post by jib on Dec 28, 2021 9:30:25 GMT
alecThe response of England Vs Wales / Scotland is telling of a completely different attitude to the role of the state in the lives of individuals. At the end of the day, those in England are generally left to make their decisions on the matter. I imagine that unless they really have their head in the sand, most have taken some preventative measures to reduce the risk to themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 9:35:43 GMT
I think Johnson is gambling on this being the last and mildest wave of Covid.
Risky ... but if he gets it wrong but the losers will as always be other people.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 28, 2021 9:49:49 GMT
England now seems internationally rather out on a limb with its covid response. Chris Hopson from the NHs trusts organisation has given some reassurance that a large chunk of hospital admissions are 'incidental cases', being admitted for other reasons then being found to be positive, although other medical experts are trying to get the message across that this doesn't necessarily mean covid is not the cause of the admission, as it makes most medical conditions worse. However on the plus side, if you dont have one of those additional medical conditions, then your personal risk, or those of your loved ones similarly, is much less than average. There doesnt seem to be any published recent info analysing exactly the causes of people's hospital admissions and what contribution covid is playing. The NHS website says its figures differentiating whether someone was admitted because of covid are estimates only as it can be difficult to determine what was the cause. And then because people seriously ill with covid tend to be old, and we know there is a lot of bed blocking because of failing of social services, then we do not know how many people currently in hospital after a covid diagnosis are already reovered and waiting to go home. It has not. Show us the evidence. Its obvious the longer the epidemic goes on then the greater the ecnomic harm. This government has engaged in policy designed to extend the duratin of the epidemic. and then there is the fact that average age of deaths from covid is 80 or so. If every 80+ in the country died, the economic disruption would be quite modest, and far far below their numbers. Because they are retired. Actual deaths are a tiny fraction of the total at risk. Economically, there is no case covid has caused massive harm but rather government intervention did so. There is no known way to reduce case numbers. vaccines dont work. Lockdowns (etc) just delay cases. What you needed to do was get it over faster. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 28, 2021 9:52:24 GMT
alec The response of England Vs Wales / Scotland is telling of a completely different attitude to the role of the state in the lives of individuals. At the end of the day, those in England are generally left to make their decisions on the matter. I imagine that unless they really have their head in the sand, most have taken some preventative measures to reduce the risk to themselves. Not really. Wales Scotland and Ireland have simply looked for ways to differentiate themselves from the westmonster government to boost their brand image. What they have done is argue for tighter restrictions to save lives. Godd slogan, poor science. They havnt had to act on those slogans because they cant do much without westminster money. So its an ideal political situation, claim you would be doing much better than westminster if only you had the power.
Labour has done much the same in England, though con have attempted to make them rsponsible for voting through measures con MPs have opposed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 10:01:56 GMT
Danny
"There is no known way to reduce case numbers. vaccines dont work. Lockdowns (etc) just delay cases. What you needed to do was get it over faster. "
Back when I was communicating Government policy on Bovine TB disease experts working with defra used to say that increasing contact rate increases the disease numbers, reducing it reduces the spread. Just basic rules.
What you are saying is that it is impossible to reduce the contact rate (?) - well have a look at the graph of the disease before and during the first lockdown. Dramatic wouldn't you say? So yes, there is a way to reduce case numbers. The central tenet of your argument seems to be that because lockdowns can't last forever, we shouldn't have any at all. Presumably because you think that everybody will eventually have contact with the disease.
In recent years (since swine flu) I have had an annual flu jab. Before that I never ever got flu in my life (unless you count gastric flu) so it's hard to say how effective it is!
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2021 10:02:02 GMT
Attachment DeletedIn the light of Tory party members favourite( but nobody else's) replacement for disgraced incompetent liar johnson.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 28, 2021 10:07:49 GMT
"Were I living now in Wales or Scotland and faced with just Tory and Plaid or SNP candidates, I would unhesitatingly vote Tory."
That's a perfectly respectable position for a British Nationalist to take.
Morning all, we are currently experiencing a break in the rain here in the PSRL.
I would either abstain, spoil my ballot, set up my own party/volunteer to stand as the Labour candidate.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 28, 2021 10:11:11 GMT
I think Johnson is gambling on this being the last and mildest wave of Covid. Risky ... but if he gets it wrong but the losers will as always be other people. Yes - exactly what you would expect from a sociopath! |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 28, 2021 10:19:10 GMT
Jeepers creepers, what just happened in Melbourne in the early hours of this morning?? Mark, we need to urgently open an Ashes post mortem thread, purely for therapeutic purposes!😫🦆🦆🦆 Ah, I was informed of England's demise this morning by a very depressed 12 year old (luckily I did't allow him to stay up and watch it). |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2021 10:20:39 GMT
Nickp
Evidence seems to suggest that it's going to be the mildest and if vaccinated you are reasonably well protected against moderate illness and very well protected against serious illness.
Which might mean the high initial transmission rate is off set by these factors.
I would still expect to see a significant increase in hospital admissions but probably not that significant increase in hospitalization numbers, as those with omicron so far based on South African data are discharged in significantly less than half the time.
Notified case rates in South Africa have fallen another 26% in the last seven days a 50% fall in less than two weeks.Mortality rates there remained low since the appearance of omicron and appeared to have peaked in a nation with the same population as England at around 50 per day ,just 10% of the rate in previous waves an increase of around 125% despite around a 1500% increase in notified cases at peak with a significantly lower vaccinated population.
The high vaccination rate should protect against higher mortality rates here but there may be some relatively minor but still sad to see temporary increase.
Of course this won't prevent the media pretending it's the black death.
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Dec 28, 2021 10:21:51 GMT
Danny
"Labour has done much the same in England, though con have attempted to make them rsponsible for voting through measures con MPs have opposed."
You mean a minority of Tory MPs have opposed. Had Labour abstained, the measures would have still passed, albeit with a great deal more discomfort for Johnson. Which is why I remain extremely ambivalent about Labour's grown-up in the room schtick, which focus groups fail to notice and discourages those of us who consider the role of the opposition to kick the government as hard as they possibly can at every available opportunity.
Starmer and his advisors lack any killer instinct. Does anyone really imagine if the Tories were in opposition they would be lining up to save a Labour government from themselves?
At this point, with the lunatic Baker and his chums running health policy, with Tory incompetence and sleaze factored into polling, they must surely be giving thought to withdrawing cooperation from Johnson's regime until such time as an adult enters the room. If that be Truss all the better from their perspective, probably.
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Dec 28, 2021 10:24:23 GMT
In the light of Tory party members favourite( but nobody else's) replacement for disgraced incompetent liar johnson. Don't believe a word... |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2021 10:26:19 GMT
Lululemon
I couldn't envisage any circumstances where voting Tory would be an option.
Even where the local incumbent MP was someone like Dr Sarah Wollaston I would rather vote for a progressive party alternative and wait for the decent Tory to come to their senses and leave the tory party like the aforementioned Doctor.
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Post by jib on Dec 28, 2021 10:43:20 GMT
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Post by barbara on Dec 28, 2021 10:50:56 GMT
Lululemon I couldn't envisage any circumstances where voting Tory would be an option. Even where the local incumbent MP was someone like Dr Sarah Wollaston I would rather vote for a progressive party alternative and wait for the decent Tory to come to their senses and leave the tory party like the aforementioned Doctor. Same here. I will vote for the Anti Tory candidate. If that's Lib Dem or Green fine. I would vote independent as long as it wasn't a disaffected/disqualified Tory in disguise or an England first type candidate. I'm afraid after 10 years of ideologically fuelled austerity, some of it also embracing idologically fuelled Brexiting, followed by 2 years of totally amoral me me me Johsonianism, if we don't get the Tories out in 2024 we can say goodbye to our public services and tradition of social concern for the elderly, poor, sick and disabled. It's vital to me so an anti-Tory tactical vote it is. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Dec 28, 2021 10:53:26 GMT
Lululemon I couldn't envisage any circumstances where voting Tory would be an option. Even where the local incumbent MP was someone like Dr Sarah Wollaston I would rather vote for a progressive party alternative and wait for the decent Tory to come to their senses and leave the tory party like the aforementioned Doctor. Hi Steve There are some Tory politicians I respect (for example Rory Stewart), but would never vote for them as long as they were standing as Tories. I am very much more pro-Labour than anti-Tory and strongly believe that voting should be done in a positive manner (although appreciate how for many VI it is often driven by opposition to something/someone rather than being in favour of the other party); which is why I have always been a supporter of PR even when Labour were winning large working majorities. |
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Post by mandolinist on Dec 28, 2021 10:58:20 GMT
I can think of only one circumstance in which I would vote for the Conservative or equivalent, it would be where a fascist like Le Pen might win if I did not. Given that our system of elections is so different to the French, I would spoil my paper if I had to, to avoid the Conservative.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2021 10:59:17 GMT
Txd
While you are probably right that the legislation would have passed with Labour abstaining it would have been seized upon by the Tory party and right wing media in a way that will never happen when it's Tories voting against.
You are also wrong regarding Tory support for a Labour government on crucial votes while 100+ Labour MPs and every lib dem voted against the ill advised military intervention in Iraq all bar 7 Tories voted in favour.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 28, 2021 11:06:40 GMT
‘Not if … but when’: Sinn Féin on path to power in Ireland www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/28/sinn-fein-on-path-to-power-irelandThis is something I have been expecting for several years and it seems that the newspapers are finally catching up on Sinn Féin's steady upward progress in the Irish Republic. It will be interesting to see what happens when they take over in Stormont, which also seems to be inevitable. |
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