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Post by laszlo4new on Nov 29, 2024 11:34:51 GMT
“He explict verbis said that East Europeans are inferior to Brits.” Hmmmm. I think even an unreconstructed old Stalinist would be very hard-pressed to find any actual hard evidence of any actual such remarks ever being made … . Sorry, I don't have the recording of the speech in one of his rallies in 2017 anymore. It was somewhere in the South (Essex probably). He said: unlike British workers East European workers don't join the union, they don't fight for higher wages and they are not committed to a better society. Back in 2015, I supported his campaign for leadership (including donation), then I started to become less and less impressed and in 2017 I went to a number of his speeches - hoping that I was wrong.... (I recorded all of them). |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2024 11:37:45 GMT
In media hypocrisy news.
Louise Haigh feels that media frenzy has forced her to resign after its revealed that she received an absolute discharge in court over what appears to be a legitimate mistake .
Meanwhile
Reform UK MP James McMurdock was jailed for repeatedly kicking his girlfriend 18 years ago, it has emerged, as fresh details in the scandal over the politician’s crime come to light.
Mr McMurdock claimed he had “pushed” his partner when details of his historical conviction, which he had not disclosed to the public before the election, were first revealed in July.
But court records from his sentencing, obtained by The Times this week, show he was detained in a young offenders’ institution for 21 days for kicking the victim around four times, in an incident which took place in 2006.
According to the records obtained and reported on by The Times, Mr McMurdock pleaded guilty to assault by beating, and the “serious nature of the offence” meant the sentence was not suspended.
Right wing media, nothing to see here move along, look over there it's a retired multimillionaire merchant banker cosplaying as a farmer he needs our sympathy.
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Post by athena on Nov 29, 2024 11:45:19 GMT
I'm mystified by the Louise Haigh story. Assuming her account is accurate, a spent conviction for a relatively minor fraud offence that Starmer knew about when he appointed her to the Shadow Cabinet doesn't seem like it should be a resigning issue at this point. If he thinks it sufficiently serious to preclude her serving in the Cabinet (per his Opposition era pledges about exceptional integrity in public life) then she should never have been appointed to the Shadow Cabinet.
I suppose I'm slightly surprised that Lab didn't try and forestall the events of today by coming clean about the conviction when she joined the Shadow Cabinet since it was surely a fairly safe bet that somebody would dig it up at some point.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 29, 2024 11:47:14 GMT
“He explict verbis said that East Europeans are inferior to Brits.” Hmmmm. I think even an unreconstructed old Stalinist would be very hard-pressed to find any actual hard evidence of any actual such remarks ever being made … . Sorry, I don't have the recording of the speech in one of his rallies in 2017 anymore. It was somewhere in the South (Essex probably). He said: unlike British workers East European workers don't join the union, they don't fight for higher wages and they are not committed to a better society. Back in 2015, I supported his campaign for leadership (including donation), then I started to become less and less impressed and in 2017 I went to a number of his speeches - hoping that I was wrong.... (I recorded all of them). If that's true what a scumbag. Anecdote I know but in our village many of those who make most of an effort to be involved, including on the parish council which it's so hard to get people to join, are Eastern European. My aforementioned Romanian neighbours do the food for the village firework display and provided food for a winter lunch get together for the older people. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 29, 2024 11:48:36 GMT
I'm mystified by the Louise Haigh story. Assuming her account is accurate, a spent conviction for a relatively minor fraud offence that Starmer knew about when he appointed her to the Shadow Cabinet doesn't seem like it should be a resigning issue at this point. If he thinks it sufficiently serious to preclude her serving in the Cabinet (per his Opposition era pledges about exceptional integrity in public life) then she should never have been appointed to the Shadow Cabinet. I suppose I'm slightly surprised that Lab didn't try and forestall the events of today by coming clean about the conviction when she joined the Shadow Cabinet since it was surely a fairly safe bet that somebody would dig it up at some point. It's because of the press. They need a (or better the original) Alastair Campbell pronto. |
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Post by shevii on Nov 29, 2024 11:50:12 GMT
By elections last night- not too bad for Labour in terms of holding seats. Same mix of reduced Lab vote everywhere other than one minor improved vote share in a Scottish seat, but mostly large majorities made them holds for Lab.
The standout one was the LD gain from Lab but just look at that reform vote:
Woodhouse (Sheffield) Council By-Election Result:
🔶 LDM: 33.0% (+26.8)
➡️ RFM: 32.7% (New)
🌹 LAB: 21.1% (-36.8)
🌳 CON: 5.0% (-9.5)
🌍 GRN: 5.4% (-4.5)
🧑🔧 TUSC: 1.8% (-1.0)
🔴 SDP: 1.1% (New)
No IND (-8.7) as previous.
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Labour.
Changes w/ 2024.
Also no signs of the Greens or left independents making much progress on their targets, especially in London.
Green and Independent vote split in this ward where Corbyn had endorsed the Independent candidate and was relatively high profile, although Lab would have held anyway:
unction (Islington) Council By-Election Result:
🌹 LAB: 40.4% (-22.0)
🙋 IND: 28.3% (New)
🌍 GRN: 11.3% (-11.2)
🔶 LDM: 8.0% (+0.9)
🌳 CON: 5.8% (-2.1)
🙋 IND: 5.0% (New)
🟥 SPB: 1.1% (New)
Labour HOLD.
Changes w/ 2022.
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Post by shevii on Nov 29, 2024 11:59:12 GMT
I'm mystified by the Louise Haigh story. Assuming her account is accurate, a spent conviction for a relatively minor fraud offence that Starmer knew about when he appointed her to the Shadow Cabinet doesn't seem like it should be a resigning issue at this point. If he thinks it sufficiently serious to preclude her serving in the Cabinet (per his Opposition era pledges about exceptional integrity in public life) then she should never have been appointed to the Shadow Cabinet. I suppose I'm slightly surprised that Lab didn't try and forestall the events of today by coming clean about the conviction when she joined the Shadow Cabinet since it was surely a fairly safe bet that somebody would dig it up at some point. Feel a bit sorry for her to be honest but maybe that's bias because I think she is one of the better Lab people. The reporting is pretty poor though because I don't feel they have given a full explanation- for example why on earth would a solicitor have said she should plead guilty? It really doesn't explain her thinking as to why having found the phone she didn't report it- surely the police weren't so on the ball that having been switched on she didn't have a chance to correct that mistake on a claim before they investigated? Whether than explanation is in the trial documents or not, no-one has reported on any explanation she gave. Clearly the judge must have more or less accepted whatever excuse she had or there would have been a more severe sentence than a ticking off. So you are left guessing at the scenarios which are anything from fancied an upgrade so put it in the list of items stolen, to all done and dusted and not worth the bother and hassle to let them know it's been found. |
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Post by laszlo4new on Nov 29, 2024 12:03:42 GMT
Rotheram put out a supportive message for Haigh on FB.
There is no mention of the reason of leaving the post, only that she was good, and will be "sorely missed".
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Post by mark61 on Nov 29, 2024 12:04:30 GMT
In media hypocrisy news. Louise Haigh feels that media frenzy has forced her to resign after its revealed that she received an absolute discharge in court over what appears to be a legitimate mistake . Meanwhile Reform UK MP James McMurdock was jailed for repeatedly kicking his girlfriend 18 years ago, it has emerged, as fresh details in the scandal over the politician’s crime come to light. Mr McMurdock claimed he had “pushed” his partner when details of his historical conviction, which he had not disclosed to the public before the election, were first revealed in July. But court records from his sentencing, obtained by The Times this week, show he was detained in a young offenders’ institution for 21 days for kicking the victim around four times, in an incident which took place in 2006. According to the records obtained and reported on by The Times, Mr McMurdock pleaded guilty to assault by beating, and the “serious nature of the offence” meant the sentence was not suspended. Right wing media, nothing to see here move along, look over there it's a retired multimillionaire merchant banker cosplaying as a farmer he needs our sympathy. I saw it reported as a Conditional Discharge, rather than an Absolute Discharge which is typically imposed for a technical breach of the Law where the Court find no Culpability. An Absolute Discharge would not be a resigning offence as the court is accepting the Defendant is effectively blameless. Not so a Conditional discharge which is commonly imposed for minor offences on Defendants who have no or little by way of Previous convictions. This appears to be a minor offence of dishonesty for which the Conviction would be considered long spent for most purposes. If it was disclosed previously why resign now?, if not resignation is the right thing to do. It raises the Question where to you set the bar, to be a minister or MP? Is it only those who have never been Convicted of anything can serve? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:07:10 GMT
I dont think any government should be shaping its policies and conduct primarily to avoid criticism in the legacy press. Young people don't read the legacy press . I dont think anyone is unaware government minister resigned for nicking phone. Whatever the detailed truth of this really is, is somewhat beside the point once its a headline. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 29, 2024 12:08:22 GMT
barbara More on the contrary thing, and its relationship to the two board cultures. The group who tend to be hypersensitive to disagreement and difference and hence a lot more tribal, may also tend to do a lot more payload posts, or give more likes to payload posts by others, thus encouraging it. Payload posts being those that don’t just express a view, but incorporate an attack on another as well. So instead of just going “ I think X”, they are more likely to prefer posts of the form “ I think X, and that is why so-and-so is a bastard!” Though sometimes they might not outright state the payload, but it’s pretty obviously implied. Many of us deliver or support payload some of the time*, but some do it a whole lot more, pretty relentlessly, and may only really get on with others who also greatly prefer payload. (These people who more relentlessly prefer payload themselves may then project contrariness onto others, as yet more payload) * some hardly ever do payload at all, like leftieliberal for example
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:16:10 GMT
Two thoughts- I dont think any government should be shaping its policies and conduct primarily to avoid criticism in the legacy press. Young people don't read the legacy press . It's a question of priorities, if it's something important, such as inheritance tax on farms, VAT on private schools etc I agree. An individual minister who did something wrong in the past resigning, I don't think is worth dying in a ditch for First problem is that 3/4 of the population never did vote for the government, whichever it is. Politics is becoming dirtier with less respect or benefit of the doubt, so that 3/4 is becoming increasingly vocal. Its guaranteed most people oppose you in general, but since it only takes 1/4 to get you into power, those are the people you should be thinking about. I think tax breaks for farmland has been badly handled: the truth seems to be this is mostly about rich people investing in land, which has caused values to soar. Then the solution is measures intended to cut land prices, which will help every farmer hoping their children will inherit. The reduction in tax break overall is likely to help family farmers avoid a big bill on death, rather than make matters worse. On school fees tax, I hold the opposite view. Its likely at least 10% of families negatively impacted by this, and they are middle class champagne socialist. Who are maybe the biggest block now of labour supporters. Second, every private kids saves the state around £10,000 per year, and its iniquitous they are fored to pay twice. Tax breaks for private schools recognise they are saving the state money. Third, the private sector is the ONLY meaningful test of how well state schools are performing. When private school kids get better results despite being thicker, and therefore get better university places. Its really telling you the problem is how bad the state schools are. Now bad state schools is problem for private schools too, because they draw staff from the same pool of teachers, and the quality just keeps getting worse. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2024 12:22:10 GMT
mark61What she said She said it had been a “genuine mistake” and that magistrates gave her the “lowest possible” sentence when she entered the guilty plea in 2014. The lowest possible sentence is an absolute discharge so I rather assumed that's what she meant. I've subsequently seen it as reported as a conditional discharge in reality the normal extent of " conditionality" is a warning not to do it or something similar again or this incident might be taken into account. So still pretty much a nothing burger. Incidentally Faith my wife has an " absolute discharge " from nearly 50 years ago when as a student nurse her friends thought it a bit of a hoot to move her bed into the back of an estate car while she was asleep in it after a few too many babychams the night before. The police found her and it went to court where fortunately everyone saw the funny side of it absolute discharge no points or suspension of her driving licence. My paternal family on the other hand have a proud tradition of being a bunch of tea leaves. My dad was enough of a disappointment to them by never being in prison they could barely tolerate it when I became plod.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:33:12 GMT
Difficult to run like for like figures on this as much of the immigration is likely to be to the cities where there is more need but where only limited action can be taken on housing. It makes the policy of building 1.5m homes rather pointless in the long term Not really, we need an awful lot of houses regardless what happens to immigration (unless suddenly lots emigrate, but I dont see it happening) I had this weird debate with someone else recently. Theres plenty of empty land. We only need a small proportion to build even say ten million new homes. Homes do not take up much space. The issue about building on new land is almost all because the most obvious choices where to build are right next to where something else is already built. Hence theres always someone whose view will be impacted by the new homes...who complain loudly and we currently let them dictate policy. Absolutely. But when 3/4 of the population dont like you anyway, theres lots of scope to offend them enough to make them vote against you and tip an election. Hence governments scared of NIMBYs. But it will mean re-allocating labour, so closing down all those extra cafes employing waiters. Maybe we should up their taxes a bit to encourage this? Oh- someone just did that! Obviously true. But equally, the numbers have never been big enough to cause a problem. Not of refugees who are the biggest group and certainly not illegals. The big problem is people we invited to come here. It totally isnt. The problem is legal immigration, which is something the last government was utterly unwilling to admit to. And so it blamed illegal immigrants, which is numerically absurd, but gives your spokespeople something they can say when asked why they have not stopped issuing millions of visas. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:36:58 GMT
The whole Epstein business makes me very angry- rich and powerful people, that include Mandelson, Clinton, Trump etc, have created a wall of silence that the FBI has not been able to break down, Oh for goodness sake! Thats not special to rich men, works for street gangs just the same. When was the last time you went down to your local police station and reported yourself for speeding? |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 29, 2024 12:38:11 GMT
You only need to read this board to realise that the most left wing people/sources are most critical of Starmer. This is even more amplified in the wider online community The only paper that consistently supports Labour is the Mirror This is made worse on twitter under Musk as he throttles back posts supportive of Labour and amplifies those critical of Starmer. Reading Blusky this morning I see Musk is now retweeting and agreeing with Andrea Jenkins post that Reform will win the next General election Let that sink in, a foreign multi billionaire and close Trump associate is actively campaigning for Reform Oh dear. Billy No Mates then ? I think you mean No Billionaire Mates. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2024 12:45:03 GMT
neilj"When Corbyn was replaced as leader I didn't try to split the party by attacking the new leader, that would be hypocritical, don't you agree" Entirely agree it's why when the crusty old neo trot was re-elected consigning the party to a pursuit of insular purity that I thought enough is enough and resigned from the Labour party.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 29, 2024 12:45:12 GMT
No LOC supporting online news sources ?? You only need to read this board to realise that the most left wing people/sources are most critical of Starmer. Well that’s not unusual, since some might feel betrayed owing to what happened with pledges. Betrayal can be particularly vexing - it’s Danté’s innermost circle of hell. This is also why some of the most vocal opponents of Tories are those who switched from Tories to Reform, very upset by what happened with immigration. It’s possible some Blairites felt that way with Corbyn over the EU ref. The Clegg u-turn on austerity that saw haemorrhaging of LD votes (Since I don’t invest much in parties, I don’t tend to feel so betrayed for myself. One can feel for others on the matter though and wonder as to longer term political effects of betrayals) |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 29, 2024 12:45:46 GMT
Personally I think Louise Haigh had to resign because of her conviction. No, not the one about a phone. The conviction she shows recently, about needing the UK to have a fairer society. If she did it once it could be written off as a genuine mistake. But apparently she did it in multiple occasions but was only charged for one offence. So she had to go. There is something very strange about this case. First why did her solicitor advise her to say nothing when questioned by the police. If it was really an innocent mistake as she claims, and she was interviewed under caution, then she could not use the innocent mistake defence when it came to court. So, either she had a very stupid solicitor, or there is something we are not being told. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:49:28 GMT
for example why on earth would a solicitor have said she should plead guilty? Well duh, because we dont have a justice system worth the name. Just how did thousands of post master either get actual court convictions and sentences despite being innocent, or were forced to pay the PO money they never owed? Would you? Having already reported something stolen, how many people would retract that because they then found it? The way I heard it described was the smallest punishment the law permitted to be given. One could even imagine her lawyer telling her either you plead guilty, we quickly explain, you get a notional sentence. Or you pay me an extra £5000 to actually hear the case in full. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2024 12:51:11 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 29, 2024 12:57:53 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee Makes you wonder if Attlee had any particular Tory minister in mind  . |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2024 12:59:14 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee Thats not changed then. Labour at least claim higher moral standards. Labour obsesses about people being bumped off under the euthanasia bill. Conservatives dont see why the state should help out the dying poor. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 29, 2024 13:00:38 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee Makes you wonder if Attlee had any particular Tory minister in mind . maybe he fancied his next door neighbour’s wife and was ruing his political allegiance? |
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Post by alec on Nov 29, 2024 13:12:19 GMT
I think someone mentioned the Syria conflict on here a day or two back (apologies, can't recall who) but there are developments of interest to wider strategic concerns.
There are consistent reports today that the Assad regime is coming under intense pressure after the anti Assad rebels mounted a concerted attack. Some are claiming that the regimes defensive lines between Aleppo and Saraqib are collapsing, and there certainly seems to have some considerable losses by government forces. This is noteworthy, because Assad in maintained in power by the Kremlin, by and large, and such a dramatic reversal may offer another indication of Russian power weakening. There is a lot of speculation that Russian support is less forthcoming, with the situation in Ukraine demanding the full attention of Moscow.
Also reported elsewhere, reports of Houthis fighters now in Ukraine fighting for Russia. Putin really is desperate, scrabbling around to assemble a new 'Axis of Evil'. It would be shameful if Trump allowed the growing constellation of Russia, Iran, North Korea and the Houthis to blossom.
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 29, 2024 13:27:27 GMT
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 29, 2024 13:48:31 GMT
I think someone mentioned the Syria conflict on here a day or two back (apologies, can't recall who) but there are developments of interest to wider strategic concerns. There are consistent reports today that the Assad regime is coming under intense pressure after the anti Assad rebels mounted a concerted attack. Some are claiming that the regimes defensive lines between Aleppo and Saraqib are collapsing, and there certainly seems to have some considerable losses by government forces. This is noteworthy, because Assad in maintained in power by the Kremlin, by and large, and such a dramatic reversal may offer another indication of Russian power weakening. There is a lot of speculation that Russian support is less forthcoming, with the situation in Ukraine demanding the full attention of Moscow. Also reported elsewhere, reports of Houthis fighters now in Ukraine fighting for Russia. Putin really is desperate, scrabbling around to assemble a new 'Axis of Evil'. It would be shameful if Trump allowed the growing constellation of Russia, Iran, North Korea and the Houthis to blossom. There was an interesting "Briefing Room" on Radio 4 re Ukraine recently that is worth catching. A summary of the programme would be that militarily Russia is now slowly winning and Ukraine slowly losing and it is unlikely that much can be done to change that, but it economic terms it is less bleak. While the Ukrainian economy is unsurprisingly a complete basket case, the Russian one is showing signs of severe stress. If there were a 25-30% fall in the oil price it would collapse tomorrow, but even without that it could all fall apart in about 12 months. Also commented how invested China, Iran and North Korea are getting in Russia being seen to win as a direct challenge to Western prestige. A memorable quote was along the lines of: 'If a ceasefire was imposed now, Ukraine would lose 20% of its territory and the West would lose 100% of its credibility and influence'. Over to you Donald. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 29, 2024 13:52:36 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee Nothing's changed then! |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 29, 2024 13:58:35 GMT
"A Tory minister can sleep in ten different women's beds in a week. A Labour minister gets it in the neck if he looks at his neighbour's wife over the garden fence." - Clement Attlee I think this attitude which shamefully persists to this day is rooted in the English class system. Tories = aristos or ruling class at least, Labour = the rest of us or ordinary people. It's long been the case going back centuries that economic propriety and sexual morality especially was only meant for the plebs the toffs could do dodgy deals and shag around as much as they liked with their separate bedrooms. Charlie et al in the eighties being a case in point. |
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Post by lens on Nov 29, 2024 14:18:05 GMT
Breaking (source Telegraph) Transport Secretary Louise Haigh resigns after admitting she pleaded guilty to misleading police In a letter to Keir Starmer, Ms Haigh said she was ‘sorry to leave’ but the issue would ‘inevitably be a distraction’ for the government Edit: Sums it up. Not a favourite of mine, but if the BBC report is to be believed this is not a resigning offence. Mugged as a young woman & mistaken about a stolen phone ? ! www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxy1kp73y9oWhy did Starmer not refuse her resignation and support her ? Maybe he asked her to go ? I think it may be a little more complicated than that. She may have been mugged, but there is a question mark over whether she then knowingly exaggerated what had gone missing? Can't say I've paid it a lot of attention, but I think it partly revolves around a phone she claimed was part of the theft she later claimed she had left at home. The problem for her (I believe) was that it came to light when the phone was switched on, and the police tracked it, them eventually coming to her house. If it was a genuine mistake, and she subsequently came across it and then reported it hadn't been stolen, I doubt anything more would have happened. |
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