|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 16:01:39 GMT
oh lots of people say they “supported” Corbyn nowadays. But actual posts in defence of Corbyn were very thin on the ground at the time. And criticism of media supporting Austerity or bashing Corbyn, also rather rarified. I was quite shocked at the time I tell you… There were notable exceptions, like shevii , and even Robbie expressed surprise at the lack of support for Corbyn (Mostly Corbyn attracted ire rather than support for not supporting Remain quite hard enough. But even his offering of a second ref didn’t seem to shift opinion one jot) He was also racist, and also a kind of Trot. He was up against BJ though, not Lenin. So who would you prefer? |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,556
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2024 16:06:53 GMT
You will find posts by me on the old site supporting Corbyn and criticising those who were splitting the party When Corbyn was replaced as leader I didn't try to split the party by attacking the new leader, that would be hypocritical, don't you agree Corbyn wasn't a good leader but better than the tories, he's gone from the party now and we need to move on I don't think Starmer is a good leader, but he's better than the tories Do you agree? Well I did track stuff like that Neil, and to be honest there really wasn’t much in his support. I’m not saying you never ever said anything supportive, but nothing remotely like now for Starmer, and criticism of media for austerity support or Corbyn-bashing even rarer on the board. I let your first remark slide where you suggested I wasn't being fully truthful, I won't let this one go If you're calling me a liar or being less than truthful come out and say it explicitly, then you and me can be done |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 16:09:20 GMT
Well I did track stuff like that Neil, and to be honest there really wasn’t much in his support. I’m not saying you never ever said anything supportive, but nothing remotely like now for Starmer, and criticism of media for austerity support or Corbyn-bashing even rarer on the board. I let your first remark slide where you suggested I wasn't being fully truthful, I won't let this one go If you're calling me a liar or being less than truthful come out and say it explicitly, then you and me can be done I didn’t say you weren’t being truthful. I agreed you may have been supportive on occasion. I just it said was nothing like as much as for Starmer. No one was posting daily in support of Corbyn, he was lucky to get some weekly |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,556
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2024 16:11:41 GMT
I let your first remark slide where you suggested I wasn't being fully truthful, I won't let this one go If you're calling me a liar or being less than truthful come out and say it explicitly, then you and me can be done I didn’t say you weren’t being truthful. I agreed you may have been supportive on occasion. I just it said was nothing like as much as for Starmer. Well as the person who wrote the posts you're wrong, do you believe me or are you saying I'm lying? |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 16:15:08 GMT
I didn’t say you weren’t being truthful. I agreed you may have been supportive on occasion. I just it said was nothing like as much as for Starmer. Well ad the person who wrote the posts you're wrong, do you believe me or are you saying I'm lying? It’s not my recollection NeilJ, though you may differ in your recollection. I did used to keep an eye on it though. I tracked various things, including number of posts per day, how many unique posters… at one point it got pretty low: only maybe 40 posts from 20 people etc., and when you only have that many posts, you don’t see many about Corbyn. Or anything much. It was mostly Brexit in those days anyway |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,556
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2024 16:16:34 GMT
Well ad the person who wrote the posts you're wrong, do you believe me or are you saying I'm lying? It’s not my recollection NeilJ, though you may differ in your recollection. I did used to keep an eye on it though. I tracked various things, including number of posts per day, how many unique posters… at one point it got pretty low: only maybe 40 posts from 20 people etc., and when you only have that many posts, you do the see many about Corbyn. It was mostly Brexit and stuff Okay we're done here |
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on Nov 28, 2024 16:18:52 GMT
Lens: "That old chestnut has been mentioned many times'
You're doing a fine job of prosyletising in the EV cause.
I have no problem with that, but I think you should be wary of dismissing the reservations of 'ordinary' car owners.
For instance, to me as a potential EV buyer, the economic case remains very unconvincing because of their elevated price. The most I could save in fuel costs on my current 1.7 diesel car, doing 7,000 miles a year at 60mpg, is about £700 a year (my total current fuel cost). That's assuming zero cost for electricity which is - to put it mildly - over-generous, especilly for those who would have to use public chargers.
Am I attracted by the prospect of laying out £35k on an equivalent EV to my current car, in order to save less than £700 a year? No, I'm not. Especially as at the low-ish annual mileage averaged by private owners, fuel costs are hugely outweighed by depreciation and insurance, both of which appear to cost more for EVs.
It's notable that most EV sales so far have been to fleets rather than private buyers, because of the much more generous tax treatment. On the more level playing field of private sales, buyers remain unconvinced for, I think, very valid reasons.
To add a personal point, which I accept is not a common problem: a couple of weeks ago, I filled my car to the brim in Huesca, in northern Spain. A couple of days and 650 miles later, I refilled the tank in Dieppe, on the Channel. The 60 litre tank took 48 litres, so there were 12 litres remaining. The point is that I never once had to think about where or when I'd have to refuel, or factor in repeated recharging stops.
|
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 16:26:45 GMT
It’s not my recollection NeilJ, though you may differ in your recollection. I did used to keep an eye on it though. I tracked various things, including number of posts per day, how many unique posters… at one point it got pretty low: only maybe 40 posts from 20 people etc., and when you only have that many posts, you do the see many about Corbyn. It was mostly Brexit and stuff Okay we're done here Well on reflection, it depends what you mean. If you mean having a go at Tories, and by implication supporting Corbyn, then yeah, quite a lot of people did that. Actual posts supporting Corbyn directly, that was a lot rarer*. Or commenting on the media assault: I did quite a few posts highligting that and it wasn’t of much interest. People hardly even discussed the policies * a few people defended him over the anti-semitism report I recall |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,751
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2024 16:42:06 GMT
Keir Starmer channels his little Englander
"As the ONS sets out, nearly one million people came to Britain in the year ending June 2023. That is four times the migration levels compared with 2019."
No shit Sherlock it's almost as if freedom of movement reduced the demand from employers for migrant staff from elsewhere in the world.
How's that " making Brexit work " going for you?
|
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on Nov 28, 2024 16:58:26 GMT
NeilJ:"Okay we're done here"
I hope that's not as drastic as it sounds. You're one of a dwindling band of interesting posters.
For what it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I'd finally had enough and blocked the two most tediously prolific, ego-massaging posters here.
My experience of the site has been transformed; I heartily recommend the measure.
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on Nov 28, 2024 16:59:09 GMT
Not sure whether this has been covered, as I haven't trawled back through the day's content, but we have just witnessed an audacious and likely highly successful political raid by Starmer today. He has used the atrocious* net migration figures from the ONS to accuse the Conservatives of "running an open borders experiment after Brexit".
Labour are quietly flipping the entire immigration debate on it's head, sweeping the carpet from under the feet of the Tories, who had thought they owned this issue. In politics, you only own an issue if you deliver on it, and while the Conservatives reveled in the divisive and aggressive rhetoric, they failed totally to walk the walk, leaving Labour with a truly shocking problem to mop up. The same thing will happen with Labour and the NHS is they don't deliver, but that's for another day.
It's incredibly significant that a Labour PM has gone on the attack over immigration, and a deeply embarrassing day for the Tories.
*Yes, the figures are atrocious. Firstly, the revision is startling, and shows just how little control we actually had over our borders after 14 years of Conservatives talking bullshit over immigration. The figures are also atrocious regarding the content. Like I posted earlier, across a two year period net migration has added the equivalent of the combined populations of Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol and Coventry. Truly shocking numbers.
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,556
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2024 17:02:50 GMT
NeilJ: "Okay we're done here"I hope that's not as drastic as it sounds. You're one of a dwindling band of interesting posters. For what it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I'd finally had enough and blocked the two most tediously prolific, ego-massaging posters here. My experience of the site has been transformed; I heartily recommend the measure. Many thanks for that and don't worry I'm not going anywhere, just won't have any more interaction with Carfrew |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 17:04:39 GMT
NeilJ: "Okay we're done here"I hope that's not as drastic as it sounds. You're one of a dwindling band of interesting posters. For what it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I'd finally had enough and blocked the two most tediously prolific, ego-massaging posters here. My experience of the site has been transformed; I heartily recommend the measure. Many thanks for that and don't worry I'm not going anywhere, just won't have any more interaction with Carfrew I’m glad you’re not going anywhere too Neil! |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,149
|
Post by domjg on Nov 28, 2024 17:17:05 GMT
NeilJ: "Okay we're done here"I hope that's not as drastic as it sounds. You're one of a dwindling band of interesting posters. For what it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I'd finally had enough and blocked the two most tediously prolific, ego-massaging posters here. My experience of the site has been transformed; I heartily recommend the measure. Many thanks for that and don't worry I'm not going anywhere, just won't have any more interaction with Carfrew I feel you! |
|
|
|
Post by turk on Nov 28, 2024 17:17:52 GMT
Alec
I think you greatly over egg what Starmer said today .I listen to his Q&A after his speech he didn’t commit Labour to anything regarding immigration figures just blamed the Tories which you’d expect him to do and talked in very vague terms about figures being too high ,next to nothing about illegal immigration ,certainly nothing about how many hotels they were using to house them or the costs.
Quite frankly Labour seems to be like rabbits caught in a headlight re immigration, no policy ,no ideas, and a belief if they keep blaming the last government the people might not notice there actually in power and immigration is down to them from now on. I’ll take a guess who the voters will be blaming in a year or so spoiler alert it won’t be the Tories.
|
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 17:29:43 GMT
Alec I think you greatly over egg what Starmer said today .I listen to his Q&A after his speech he didn’t commit Labour to anything regarding immigration figures just blamed the Tories which you’d expect him to do and talked in very vague terms about figures being too high ,next to nothing about illegal immigration ,certainly nothing about how many hotels they were using to house them or the costs. Quite frankly Labour seems to be like rabbits caught in a headlight re immigration, no policy ,no ideas, and a belief if they keep blaming the last government the people might not notice there actually in power and immigration is down to them from now on. I’ll take a guess who the voters will be blaming in a year or so spoiler alert it won’t be the Tories. I think it’s become a real concern among those who are normally for a lot of immigration, partly because of the rise of Reform here, and also what just happened in the States, esp. because in the States it looks like immigrants might increasingly be voting against more immigration. But yes, what they might do about it is something else |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,556
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2024 17:39:50 GMT
Petulant child, Farage walks out of Sky interview because, apparently, having 1m TikTok followers means not having to answer as party leader, about your MP's failure to disclose being jailed for violent assault amd who tried to down play it when they were found out Farage is too used to having no scrutiny on GB News and Musk's twitter How dare journalists think they can ask questions of him about a violent domestic abuser Reform MP who hasn't even had the whip withdrawn www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/nigel-farage-sky-reform-james-mcmurdock-assault-b2655441.html |
|
|
|
Post by lens on Nov 28, 2024 17:52:18 GMT
Lens: "That old chestnut has been mentioned many times'You're doing a fine job of prosyletising in the EV cause. I have no problem with that, but I think you should be wary of dismissing the reservations of 'ordinary' car owners. For instance, to me as a potential EV buyer, the economic case remains very unconvincing because of their elevated price. I've said several times that any case pro EVs is very dependent on individual circumstance, and certainly the more anyone is able to charge at home or work the more sense they make. I've also said that changing a car purely to go electric probably doesn't make sense - but if you are buying a new (or newer) car anyway, it's well worth looking at an EV. I've also said that at present (doing little annual mileage) my current car is an elderly diesel that I've had since new. For various reasons it makes sense to keep on running it, but in the next few years it's going to be time to replace it, and then it probably will be time to go electric. But if I'm "prosyletising", it's because anyone raising valid objections is one thing - spreading provably false misinformation another. And I stress that's not intending to dig at mercian - he's heard several oft-quoted myths and nothing to refute them at the time. Not his fault, and he's far from alone. Hopefully he's had the chance to research a bit more and now realises that they are myths. Unfortunately, there are some who are only too well aware that what they are spreading are myths. And in the case previously quoted (Aston Martin 5 years ago) we're talking about a PR firm deliberately promoting misleading statements. I don't want to just "dismiss reservations of 'ordinary' car owners" - as long as what they may consider to be very real reservations are grounded in fact - not myths. |
|
|
|
Post by graham on Nov 28, 2024 18:15:59 GMT
oh lots of people say they “supported” Corbyn nowadays. But actual posts in defence of Corbyn were very thin on the ground at the time. And criticism of media supporting Austerity or bashing Corbyn, also rather rarified. I was quite shocked at the time I tell you… There were notable exceptions, like shevii , and even Robbie expressed surprise at the lack of support for Corbyn Mostly Corbyn attracted ire for not supporting Remain quite hard enough You will find posts by me on the old site supporting Corbyn and criticising those who were splitting the party When Corbyn was replaced as leader I didn't try to split the party by attacking the new leader, that would be hypocritical, don't you agree Corbyn wasn't a good leader but better than the tories, he's gone from the party now and we need to move on I don't think Starmer is a good leader, but he's better than the tories and did something Corbyn didn't, won an election Corbyn may have gone from the party now but so have 40% of voters who supported Labour less than six months ago. As for Starmer winning an election, it was much more a case of the Tories imploding and being determined to lose an election. Starmer really made no positive contribution at all. Moreover, Labour support was dropping like a stone during the last week of the election campaign - and has continued dropping ever since. Starmer has now been party leader for over four and a half years, and I sense that people have long made their minds up about him. People are no longer listening to himm - he is failing to connect - and it it really does not matter what he actually now says. Labour will not win another election under his leadership.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,549
|
Post by Danny on Nov 28, 2024 18:27:41 GMT
Alec I think you greatly over egg what Starmer said today .I listen to his Q&A after his speech he didn’t commit Labour to anything regarding immigration figures just blamed the Tories which you’d expect him to do and talked in very vague terms about figures being too high ,next to nothing about illegal immigration ,certainly nothing about how many hotels they were using to house them or the costs. Quite frankly Labour seems to be like rabbits caught in a headlight re immigration, no policy ,no ideas, and a belief if they keep blaming the last government the people might not notice there actually in power and immigration is down to them from now on. I’ll take a guess who the voters will be blaming in a year or so spoiler alert it won’t be the Tories. Well what he said was that although brexit had been sold as cutting immigration, it has in fact been used as an excuse to increase it. And he is right, its always been easy to halt immigration, just stop issuing the visas.
The way the conservatives squared the circle of brexit harming industry reliant upon immigrant labour, was simply to ramp up the immigration. Lie.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,549
|
Post by Danny on Nov 28, 2024 18:29:32 GMT
I think it’s become a real concern among those who are normally for a lot of immigration, partly because of the rise of Reform here, and also what just happened in the States, esp. because in the States it looks like immigrants might increasingly be voting against more immigration. But yes, what they might do about it is something else While polling has said a majority doesn mind immigration, that isnt necessarily the same as actively wanting a lot of immigration. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on Nov 28, 2024 18:53:27 GMT
turk - "Quite frankly Labour seems to be like rabbits caught in a headlight re immigration, no policy ,no ideas.." You are funny. Thanks for bringing a smile to my face. It must be hard for you. For your lot, this is one of those 'you only had one job' moments. All that shite they talked about reducing immigration to a few tens of thousands, and 14 years later it's climbing towards the million mark. I suggest you go away and lie down for a bit, and just start accepting that your lot right royally f@cked everything up, like never before, and that there are some grown ups in charge now trying to sort out the mess.
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,149
|
Post by domjg on Nov 28, 2024 18:54:22 GMT
somerjohn I'm also not ready for an EV. I do fewer long journeys rather than many shorter which.might make more sense and basically I find them too expensive for what you get. I still feel it's not a mature enough, reliable enough technology and have heard too many tales of service, reliability (Inc Tesla which I wouldn't now touch with a bargepole) and broken charger woe from people who have them. Also I couldn't be arsed with the hassle of getting a home charger and I like light cars with good handling. I'm sure I'll get an electric one day but not for a few years yet. As you say nothing beats filling up for two mins then driving in any style for 500-600 miles before needing to do it again. I always smile when I see an EV crawling along the inside lane trying to eke out the leccy after miscalculating!
|
|
|
|
Post by graham on Nov 28, 2024 19:00:43 GMT
Moreincommon
Con: 30% (+2)
Lab: 27% (+2)
RefUK 18% (-1)
LD : 12% (-1)
Green: 8% (=)
SNP: 2% (-1)
Via @moreincommon_, 26-27 Nov.
Changes w/ 19-21 Nov
|
|
|
|
Post by mark61 on Nov 28, 2024 19:24:48 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w I can't work out where your coming from, many Labour Supporters (like me) found Corbyn's manifesto and campaign exciting in 2017 it appeared radical compared to previous offerings but really was well within a Wilsonian Labour tradition, the problem with Corbyn was that he wasn't up to the job of Leader let alone PM. I agree there was a reprehensible undermining by some on the Labour right but remember no MP has voted against his Govt. more than Corbyn. I wonder whether you are an old Tanky, The KPD did not see much difference in the 30's between the NSPAD and the SPD, your ire seems to be directed wholly at the Centre whilst you give one Far right American oligarch a free pass! As Neil asked why is that?
|
|
|
|
Post by mark61 on Nov 28, 2024 19:48:26 GMT
Alec I think you greatly over egg what Starmer said today .I listen to his Q&A after his speech he didn’t commit Labour to anything regarding immigration figures just blamed the Tories which you’d expect him to do and talked in very vague terms about figures being too high ,next to nothing about illegal immigration ,certainly nothing about how many hotels they were using to house them or the costs. Quite frankly Labour seems to be like rabbits caught in a headlight re immigration, no policy ,no ideas, and a belief if they keep blaming the last government the people might not notice there actually in power and immigration is down to them from now on. I’ll take a guess who the voters will be blaming in a year or so spoiler alert it won’t be the Tories. I think think RoC's on here and Conservative MP's are suffering from a bad case of amnesia or maybe cognitive dissonance. The last two years of Tory Govt saw 1.6 million net migration into UK whilst giving us the pantomime of the Rwanda scheme the only beneficiary of which was Paul Kagame's regime who trousered tens of millions, whilst Tory politicians did their best to demonise refugees at every Opportunity. Starmer's not far wrong in saying the Tories ran an experiment in Open borders. Starmer has this in his in tray as well as collapsed Public Services , a spending black hole and a sluggish economy. This Government face a monumental task due to the chaos left by your Party, I think what's happening, is not that that they are Rabbits in the Headlights rather that they are rolling up their sleeves and shovelling the Shit left behind by Johnson, Truss and Sunak. |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 28, 2024 19:58:32 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w I can't work out where your coming from, many Labour Supporters (like me) found Corbyn's manifesto and campaign exciting in 2017 it appeared radical compared to previous offerings but really was well within a Wilsonian Labour tradition, the problem with Corbyn was that he wasn't up to the job of Leader let alone PM. I agree there was a reprehensible undermining by some on the Labour right but remember no MP has voted against his Govt. more than Corbyn. I wonder whether you are an old Tanky, The KPD did not see much difference in the 30's between the NSPAD and the SPD, your ire seems to be directed wholly at the Centre whilst you give one Far right American oligarch a free pass! As Neil asked why is that? I made it clear I wasn’t giving Musk a free pass, I just said I’m not keen on others getting a free pass either. And there’s no ire regarding Corbyn or anything else, I’m just interested in patterns of support. I’m not very party political, it doesn’t bother me if Corbyn or whoever gets criticised, it’s more a question of to what extent all get a fair critique. It’s the non-partisan thing again. (Obviously it’s hard to do perfectly, and I’m not saying everyone has to do it, but it’s my interest) For example, another thing from the era I found interesting: quite lot of people gave the coalition stick about austerity. But there was relative silence about EU austerity… A lot of it is just to try and figure things out, which can be more the concern if not campaigning but just chatting about politics. (E.g. Once you entertain the idea Dems had more media support and more funding, and still lost, then you can start to wonder about what it was worth. Did it not make much difference, or would Trump’s victory have been much bigger without it, or did Musk’s taking over Twitter, have an outside effect to counter it, and so forth. How much was it other alternative news makimg a difference…) I agree Corbyn had issues with voting against the party like that, although it probably didn’t wreck chances of winning elections as much as pretty much the whole shadow cabinet resigning? And then all the leaks. It was potentially a problem for the left though, prioritising affairs abroad at times… |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,149
|
Post by domjg on Nov 28, 2024 20:02:36 GMT
mark61 Well said. Anyone would think Labour had been in power for a decade the way they talk.
|
|
|
|
Post by turk on Nov 28, 2024 20:50:12 GMT
Danny
None of what the Tories did has anything to do with what Labour are going to do to reduce immigration legal or illegal . Starmer spent the entire time blaming the Tories which is what a Tory PM would have done if the rolls were reversed to be fair. Especially when you don’t have a clue what do about it.
IAnd it’s possibly worth saying that in opposition we didn’t hear much if anything from Labour re immigration legal or illegal, infact there was a some push back when the Tories stopped students bring there relatives with them from the Labour benches.
Alec as usual was trying to say that Starmer was putting forward some sort of plan to reduce immigration and how wonderful it’s going to be , however any sort of policy was something Starmer studiously avoided doing during his speech and Q&A session . Although to be fair he did at least spare us the smash tha gangs trope especially as illegal immigration has risen on his watch.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rafwan on Nov 28, 2024 20:51:07 GMT
“He explict verbis said that East Europeans are inferior to Brits.”
Hmmmm. I think even an unreconstructed old Stalinist would be very hard-pressed to find any actual hard evidence of any actual such remarks ever being made … .
|
|
