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Post by ping on Jul 1, 2024 7:24:07 GMT
By Friday morning, Britain could have its most state-educated cabinet in decades. The shadow cabinet heading into the general election is 77.5% state-educated, with seven out of 31 members having attended fee-paying schools. That is of course still three times the percentage of fee charging school members as the wider public.But a significant improvement. Improvement? How? Based on over performance in state examinations, privately educated kids get a better education. You are arguing its a bad thing those governing us got a better than average education? I think the point steve was making is that there is value in our government being representative of the people they are governing. For example, they may be able to appreciate and empathise better with the issues faced by the general public. Also, the stat you quote is presumably based on GCSE and/or A level results. I'm not sure whether private school kids still over perform at undergraduate or postgraduate degree level. In fact, I thought there was some evidence that State school pupils over perform at University given their school performance. Last but not least, is GCSE and A level performance an important determinant of how well you'll run the country? I would argue it is not. For example, I was very good at exams (good short term memory etc.) but I don't feel this prepared me well for the world of work. I work in science, an area where you would assume academic achievement and exam performance would be particularly important, but actually a lot of the best scientists are not people who aced their exams; they are people who can think creatively, can manage projects and teams well, and who are intensely passionate about what they do. Once you are applying for post-doctoral positions, you don't even mention GCSE and A level results. You might put your undergraduate degree on your CV but actually things like your PhD and publication record are far more important. I'm sure there are lots of qualifications that make someone a good person to run the country but I'd argue that good school exam results are not amongst them. A certain level of technical nous is probably desirable - being reasonably numerate and understanding how the economy works and so on. But more important are a passion to serve the public, compassion and empathy, humility and integrity. |
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bardin1
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Post by bardin1 on Jul 1, 2024 7:26:10 GMT
Thank you Moby - an excellent response by the Plaid Cymru leader to a pathetically ill researched and presented questioning. He comes across really well |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 1, 2024 7:38:27 GMT
"Also, the stat you quote is presumably based on GCSE and/or A level results. I'm not sure whether private school kids still over perform at undergraduate or postgraduate degree level"
Without reference to the data I seem to recall underperformance is more common at degree level, the spoon fed support at fee charging schools isn't there.
Researchers found if I remember correctly state school pupils with A* grade A-levels were likely to get better degrees than those from private schools with similar A-level grades
Their relative failure doesn't of course prevent the privately educated getting a disproportionate share of the best jobs.
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hireton
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Post by hireton on Jul 1, 2024 7:38:47 GMT
mark61"I have never been a fan of Nationalism in any guise and don't welcome Nationalists trying to take the moral high ground." So you are opposed to Irish re-unification?
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 1, 2024 7:42:19 GMT
"Also, the stat you quote is presumably based on GCSE and/or A level results. I'm not sure whether private school kids still over perform at undergraduate or postgraduate degree level" Without reference to the data I seem to recall underperformance is more common at degree level, the spoon fed support at fee charging schools isn't there. Researchers found if I remember correctly state school pupils with A* grade A-levels were likely to get better degrees than those from private schools with similar A-level grades Their relative failure doesn't of course prevent them from privately educated getting a disproportionate share of the best jobs. Anecdotally a university lecturer friend of mine confirms this point. He very regularly encounters privately educated students who on paper should be great but in reality appear not to know their arse from their elbow. They also like to kick up a stink when they don't receive the marks they believe they are entitled to. |
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hireton
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Post by hireton on Jul 1, 2024 7:45:06 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 1, 2024 7:48:02 GMT
Rather sad to review the litany of pointless, point scoring jibes coming from the nats currently.
I suppose it can't be great to be in their heads at the moment politically but it just comes as a bit bitter.
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Post by johntel on Jul 1, 2024 7:48:39 GMT
"Steve may have a touch og the Colin's only other people can be rude" I can see there are words in the above comment but they don't seem to even be on nodding terms with each other. It's as if someone's randomly hit the spell checker bar. I can help with the meaning of og steve, but I'm afraid it tends to obfuscate rather than clarify the overall meaning - og “original gangsta,” is a slang term for someone who's incredibly exceptional, authentic, or “old-school.” OG was originally used in gang culture, but it is now used as a general term to praise someone who is an expert at something. www.dictionary.com/e/slang/og/ |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 1, 2024 7:51:53 GMT
It would be remiss of me not to keep my fan club on here, of which, until last night I'd always counted the charming and genial Old Nat as a lifelong member, happy with a treatise about the fortunes of the England football team.
My last essay was probably somewhat of a curate's egg in so much as it was true (good) in parts. This applies to many of my posts on a range of subjects, as you know.
The good bits applied to my prediction that England would progress further in the tournament, and they duly have. 24 teams entered and we're now amongst the last 8 of those left in. To get into the quarter finals of this astonishingly competitive and high standard tournament is no mean achievement. No trophies are won on premature flights home, and England are still in it and two games from the Final.
Where I was slightly wrong was in predicting a much improved performance from this highly talented group of players, albeit we have to acknowledge that Slovakia were a very good side and played some exceptional football last night. They probably deserved to win, although the dreaded statistics from the game tell a story of England dominance.
England are hanging on in there, accumulating detractors as they go, just like Steve Borthwick's Rugby Union team did in last year's World Cup, but they stubbornly refuse to buckle.
Where it ends, who knows, but last night's last ditch escape may galvanise the team and the legions of fans following their stuttering odyssey in Germany.
I think there is a great performance waiting to happen here. Maybe Southgate has accidentally fallen upon a team set up, with Palmer marauding on the right and Saka at left back, that unlocks the currently constipated team.
This is not the time for Swiss punnery, but maybe, just maybe, last night was when the misfiring old England locomotive started to finally roll.
Destination Berlin on Sunday July 14th.
I'm on board the train. If the country is back on board too, well here we go then. Good fun.
Swiss beware next Saturday. The real England may just turn up.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 1, 2024 7:52:26 GMT
domjg Back in the long distant past on my degree course at Bristol around 60% were from fee charging schools,only about 40% from state, mostly selective and just two people including me from comprehensives. Given that I came in the top two in the year and the other person was also state educated it's indicative.Maybe just of the time there was a concerted effort to be more inclusive.My A levels were good not brilliant. While I went on to join the met after my PhD funding was removed by Thatcher, my mate John ,whose parents were loaded,stayed at Bristol and converted his degree to Medicine, another 6 years and then went on to a successful career in the royal navy and then back to Kenya where his parents lived. My girlfriend at uni after managing a creditable 2:2 after a brief period doing secretarial work ended up as something senior at the United nations.Where her father had been a representative. The fact that she'd been educated at Roedean I'm sure had nothing to do with it. She was lovely though so I won't whinge
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Post by shevii on Jul 1, 2024 7:52:59 GMT
To be fair, it's not a symmetrical thing - if the left alliance came third in a seat there's very probably no point in contesting the run-off because they're not going to pick up any real support from eliminated parties; whoever has finished second to Le Pen's lot is likely to be more appealing as a compromise anyway. Whereas if Macron's candidate has come third and isn't too far behind the NFP candidate in second, they might well be better placed to pick up ROC and other support in the second round than the NFP candidate - that will likely be negotiated seat-by-seat. Also it remains to be seen how magnanimous Melenchon and co are actually being. They'd have to have got about 20% or more of the vote to qualify for the run-off from third place - the number of seats that's actually happened in (and where Le Pen's lot have also come top) might turn out to be a relatively painless sacrifice anyway. As best as I can tell Melenchon & co are being magnanimous and have said if they finish 3rd then they pull out. Unfortunately Macron has said they will not pull out against Melenchon but will with the other left parties. What you say about chances of winning may be true, but Macron doesn't seem to be saying this on the basis of chances of winning just that he sees them as as bad as Le Pen and somehow a threat to the nation. I'd suggest to you that this means Macron is the problem here. |
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Post by barbara on Jul 1, 2024 7:54:42 GMT
Campaign report from Clacton. Thank you for such a thoughtful report. A lot of this sounds very similar to my own experience of canvassing a traditional Tory constituency. I always think the subtext is fear; fear of a changing world and your place in it. Did the truculent Reform voters tend towards a certain demographic? Fertile territory for a realignment in British politics. It will be fascinating to see what happens to the Conservative Party after this election. If we are correct to prophesy a Labour victory, then a lot will probably depend on the scale of the Tory defeat. If they have very few big names left, then those remaining will have a big influence over the future direction. Also, disenchanted Tory voters may be more inclined to stay at home if they are not that frightened of letting the alternative in. Funnily enough, in 2019, I remember a few people saying that they would have voted Labour "if Keir Starmer was the leader". Financial crash, maybe? I witnessed a depressing conversation on the train a couple of weeks ago between two women in their twenties and two thirty-something men. One of the women was saying something to the effect of: "Whenever Labour are in, they spend all the money and then the Tories have to come in and sort everything out." One of the men tentatively suggested that Labour couldn't be entirely blamed for a global financial crash. Striking that this view of Labour being economically incompetent has such staying power given the last few years... Very concerning, unless it was just their way of avoiding the conversation. I sometimes adopt that strategy with door-to-door salespeople. "Oh, I'll have to discuss that with my husband first. He tends to handle the [insert relevant aspect of life]. I of course internally flagellate myself for doing so. Reform supporters are nearly always angry. They call into radio stations and shout the whole time. I think it's spending too much time on far right social media and listening to Farage. It leaves them with a sense that the country is full of immigrants and foreigners, that benefits for the 'skivers' comprises 80% of the total budget, that 'over there' is a dangerous place (except for Costa da England where they take their holidays), that young people are lazy and worse, left wing, that the BBC is a hotbed of socialist propaganda etc etc. No wonder they're angry if they believe all that. Listening to the unguarded comments of Reform candidates we've heard during hte campagin they certainly seem to be an angry and unhappy bunch, full of unnamed hatred for everything. There was an item I heard on the radio last week that research had shown that people who espouse far fight views and ideology are more unhappy than other people and their quality of life is worse. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 1, 2024 7:56:47 GMT
crossbat11"The good bits applied to my prediction that England would progress further in the tournament, and they duly have. 24 teams entered and we're now amongst the last 8 of those left in. " If they remain in when do they get to lose to Spain? Preguntando por un amigo☺
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Post by johntel on Jul 1, 2024 7:58:36 GMT
Yes the roc economic approach is to maximise economic growth with the belief that the poorer will benefit in absolute terms (though not relatively) from a trickle-down effect. This seems to be what Labour's policy is now. |
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Post by johntel on Jul 1, 2024 8:04:36 GMT
My last essay was probably somewhat of a curate's egg in so much as it was true (good) in parts. This applies to many of my posts on a range of subjects, as you know. Sorry to say it crossbat11, but the curates's egg was actually rotten right through, he was just being polite when the bishop enquired about it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate%27s_egg#:~:text=A%20%22curate's%20egg%22%20is%20something,good%20features%20that%20redeem%20it. |
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Post by mark61 on Jul 1, 2024 8:07:13 GMT
"Also, the stat you quote is presumably based on GCSE and/or A level results. I'm not sure whether private school kids still over perform at undergraduate or postgraduate degree level" Without reference to the data I seem to recall underperformance is more common at degree level, the spoon fed support at fee charging schools isn't there. Researchers found if I remember correctly state school pupils with A* grade A-levels were likely to get better degrees than those from private schools with similar A-level grades Their relative failure doesn't of course prevent the privately educated getting a disproportionate share of the best jobs. It is almost as if a lot of the Privately educated wilt when finally faced with a level playing field, but not to worry they can fall back on the contacts and influence that is the added value purchased by Mum and Dads Money! |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 1, 2024 8:19:58 GMT
"Also, the stat you quote is presumably based on GCSE and/or A level results. I'm not sure whether private school kids still over perform at undergraduate or postgraduate degree level" Without reference to the data I seem to recall underperformance is more common at degree level, the spoon fed support at fee charging schools isn't there. Researchers found if I remember correctly state school pupils with A* grade A-levels were likely to get better degrees than those from private schools with similar A-level grades Their relative failure doesn't of course prevent the privately educated getting a disproportionate share of the best jobs. It is almost as if a lot of the Privately educated wilt when finally faced with a level playing field, but not to worry they can fall back on the contacts and influence that is the added value purchased by Mum and Dads Money! The other main thing private education appears to buy is the unwavering self belief that you deserve to be on top regardless. |
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Post by wb61 on Jul 1, 2024 8:20:29 GMT
I find when it comes to the Governance of Wales, not only are UK presenters ill informed that they appear to have no interest in becoming better informed! In particular, I hear simple parroting of the UK parties' lines as to whether Wales is well or poorly governed and accuracy poor because it is not independently researched at all. For example the constant comparison of the Welsh NHS with that in England is just repeating attack or defence lines without any in depth look at such things as the difference in population make-up and comparison of like with like i.e. hospitals in high or low deprivation areas being compared. It is just another example of the juvenilising of discourse, how can people be properly informed if news is presented as entertainment not information. |
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Post by wb61 on Jul 1, 2024 8:23:12 GMT
Thank you Moby - an excellent response by the Plaid Cymru leader to a pathetically ill researched and presented questioning. He comes across really well For information: Rhyn ap Iorwerth was a BBC news reporter in Wales, I was interviewed by him once. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 1, 2024 8:24:51 GMT
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Post by mark61 on Jul 1, 2024 8:26:52 GMT
mark61 "I have never been a fan of Nationalism in any guise and don't welcome Nationalists trying to take the moral high ground." So you are opposed to Irish re-unification? Well that is a slightly different question as partition was imposed, and before you ask I'm in favour of the dismantling of Colonial empires. I guess my objection to the concept is that I don't like the idea of the Nation as an entity which gives shape to the allegiances and obligations of those that live within it's borders. Added to which within democracies at least Nationalist movements are typically of the right and usually involve the othering of some part of the community. ( I accept that does not apply to the SNP) |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 1, 2024 8:30:28 GMT
My last essay was probably somewhat of a curate's egg in so much as it was true (good) in parts. This applies to many of my posts on a range of subjects, as you know. Sorry to say it crossbat11, but the curates's egg was actually rotten right through, he was just being polite when the bishop enquired about it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate%27s_egg#:~:text=A%20%22curate's%20egg%22%20is%20something,good%20features%20that%20redeem%20it. Not even any good bits??? |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 1, 2024 8:33:09 GMT
crossbat11"The good bits applied to my prediction that England would progress further in the tournament, and they duly have. 24 teams entered and we're now amongst the last 8 of those left in. " If they remain in when do they get to lose to Spain? Preguntando por un amigo☺ I'm banking on the Germans knocking them out!! |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jul 1, 2024 8:38:52 GMT
mark61 "I have never been a fan of Nationalism in any guise and don't welcome Nationalists trying to take the moral high ground." So you are opposed to Irish re-unification? However do you reach that conclusion? For all we know, since he has not made it clear, mark61 might be opposed to the Partition of Ireland in 1921, which was the result of Nationalists in the north of the island, seeking independence from the majority in the south of the island; a direct parallel to your own position. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 1, 2024 8:39:56 GMT
Re the euros I think there is sometimes disrespect shown to teams such as Slovakia
Let's remember Slovakia beat Belgium (3rd placed best team in the FIFA World rankings) I never can understand the entitlement some show that we should always beat such teams. They were no pushovers.
As to the game, England had a poor first half, a much improved second half, where they got better as the game progressed. On the balance of 120 minutes play, England deserved the win
England do need to improve a lot more, of that there is no doubt, especially as they are playing Switzerland who are on fire at the moment
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 1, 2024 8:47:16 GMT
Yougov on tactical voting, bad news for the tories
One in five voters say they are voting tactically on Thursday, including almost four in ten Lib Dems
All voters: 22% voting tactically
Lib Dems: 39%
Labour: 29%
Conservative: 12%
Reform UK: 10%
Green: 8%
Who are tactical voters trying to stop from winning? Three quarters say it is the Conservatives
Trying to stop Tories: 74%
Trying to stop Labour: 16%
Trying to stop SNP: 4%
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Post by leftieliberal on Jul 1, 2024 8:49:41 GMT
crossbat11 "The good bits applied to my prediction that England would progress further in the tournament, and they duly have. 24 teams entered and we're now amongst the last 8 of those left in. " If they remain in when do they get to lose to Spain?Preguntando por un amigo☺ Not until the final as Spain are on the opposite side of the draw, along with Germany, France, Portugal and Belgium. England have to rely on them exhausting themselves in playing each other. England, if they get past Switzerland, are likely to face either Austria or The Netherlands in the semis, which is an easier route to the final. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 1, 2024 8:57:07 GMT
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Post by robbiealive on Jul 1, 2024 8:57:28 GMT
crossbat11 "The good bits applied to my prediction that England would progress further in the tournament, and they duly have. 24 teams entered and we're now amongst the last 8 of those left in. " If they remain in when do they get to lose to Spain?Preguntando por un amigo☺ Not until the final as Spain are on the opposite side of the draw, along with Germany, France, Portugal and Belgium. England have to rely on them exhausting themselves in playing each other. England, if they get past Switzerland, are likely to face either Austria or The Netherlands in the semis, which is an easier route to the final. thanks for info. I can now appear as an expert if anyone asks. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 1, 2024 8:59:20 GMT
On tactical voting a little family poll.
Faith and I as we stood as lib dem candidates at the locals and know Sammy our parliamentary candidate will be voting along party lines.
My son and foster Son who both voted lib dem at the locals will be gifting their vote to the Labour candidate, which is fair enough as they stand the best chance of winning , our daughter is a Labour party member but voted lib dem at the locals will be voting Labour at the general election, fine with that , we're all casting anti Tory votes.
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