24-April 2023 : LAB 44% / CON 29% / LDEM 11% / GRN 5%

[shevii]

May 2, 2023 12:41:03 GMT domjg said:

May 2, 2023 12:18:33 GMT graham said:

And yet for the sake of your own pique you are interested in being an enabler for a tory party that is willing to demonise and cause suffering not only to refugees who have undergone extreme hardship but also established British communities, to make them doubt their place here, to cause anxiety for them and their children. It's always interesting to see where people's priorities lie. Gives a good insight into their sense of morality. 

Isn't that exactly what Starmer has been doing recently anyway?  I think he would probably be more liberal in power (nothing is guaranteed with Starmer with his heavier sentences on XR protesters proclamations) but Labour's comments on the boats, Rwanda etc are all signalling they sort of agree with the Tories but would do it differently and more efficiently.  They're just as much "stop the boats" as the Tories are and I've not heard one positive comment on refugees, just about better processing with their criticisms on Rwanda being all about it not being effective and a waste of money rather than being morally wrong. Either way those British communities of immigrants are not going to feel anything Starmer has said has been standing up against the pile on.

Also this thing about being an "enabler" for the Tories, it's like saying if you are left of centre then whatever Labour do you have to stick with them otherwise you're an enabler.  How about Starmer being an enabler for the Tories by pushing that Overton window so far to the right that there is no opposition to what they have been up to, other than on corruption.  Starmer has it in his power to very likely never have this kind of government again by promising PR so that even if a government goes right wing they would always have checks and balances against corruption and against someone like Liz Truss getting in on the nod and trashing the economy.  Even if a Tory/UKIP coalition resulted you'd find opposition to the cronyism.

If your criticisms were based on someone wanting socialist purity or nothing short of Corbyn then I'd agree with you but it's not- it's about not seeing anything remotely worthy of a centre or left of centre party. As steve says very little doubt that on headline policy LD are now to the left of Labour, however much we can mistrust the LDs based on past history.

[graham]

Corbyn despite not gaining office did push the Overton window to the left - as we clearly saw in the Tory policy proposals of 2019 compared with 2017 & 2015. Sadly Starmer is now colluding with the Tories to push that Overton window back to the right.
Perhaps the best we can now hope for is a Hung Parliament giving 25 plus Campaign group MPs a great deal of leverage - by making their support conditional on more left of centre policies being adopted.

[steve]

graham
Davey is the last Orange Booker remaining in the party leadership,I didn't vote for him by the way.The deputy leader isn't,the chair of the party isn't and conference didn't pass Orange book policies


This is where the party stands as of 2023


Access to opportunities for every individual across society regardless of their background, inherent characteristics, or where they live.
Access to the social and economic support each individual and community needs to maximise their own ability to make decisions and make use of opportunity.
Consistent and fair processes that enhance trust in employers, the government, and other actors across the economy, and that encourage such actors to place trust in people.
A fair playing field throughout the economy where large and established players can’t shut out innovators and challengers.
Encouragement of vitality and non-conformity that honours people's own ambitions whatever they are, rather than a narrowly economic test of 'success'.

End Deep Poverty, including a radical overhaul of the welfare system so no family ever has to use a food bank in Britain, by:
Taking immediate steps to repair the safety net, including restoring the £20 uplift to Universal Credit, introducing emergency grants (not loans) and stopping deducting debt repayments at unaffordable rates.
Following this up in the longer term with fundamental reforms to the welfare system by introducing a Guaranteed Basic Income by increasing Universal Credit to the level required to end deep poverty within the decade and removing sanctions.


Now this might not be full blown socialism, we're not a socialist party and don't pretend to be , but it's main stream social democracy far from right wing.

Admit it you have preconceptions about the liberal democrats and don't want to consider that catastrophic electoral failure isn't a very good reason to focus on change.

You might want to ask yourself why a life long Labour voter and a long term Labour party member can be comfortable in the lib dems without changing their political compass and why the party have no problem accepting my views and asked me to stand for election,again.
Similarly why Faith a long term trade union activist and senior elected representative feels equally comfortable and is constantly approached to consider standing for a parliamentary seat.

[graham]

May 2, 2023 14:05:15 GMT steve said:

graham
Davey is the last Orange Booker remaining in the party leadership,I didn't vote for him by the way.The deputy leader isn't,the chair of the party isn't and conference didn't pass Orange book policies


This is where the party stands as of 2023


Access to opportunities for every individual across society regardless of their background, inherent characteristics, or where they live.
Access to the social and economic support each individual and community needs to maximise their own ability to make decisions and make use of opportunity.
Consistent and fair processes that enhance trust in employers, the government, and other actors across the economy, and that encourage such actors to place trust in people.
A fair playing field throughout the economy where large and established players can’t shut out innovators and challengers.
Encouragement of vitality and non-conformity that honours people's own ambitions whatever they are, rather than a narrowly economic test of 'success'.

End Deep Poverty, including a radical overhaul of the welfare system so no family ever has to use a food bank in Britain, by:
Taking immediate steps to repair the safety net, including restoring the £20 uplift to Universal Credit, introducing emergency grants (not loans) and stopping deducting debt repayments at unaffordable rates.
Following this up in the longer term with fundamental reforms to the welfare system by introducing a Guaranteed Basic Income by increasing Universal Credit to the level required to end deep poverty within the decade and removing sanctions.


Now this might not be full blown socialism, we're not a socialist party and don't pretend to be , but it's main stream social democracy far from right wing.

Admit it you have preconceptions about the liberal democrats and don't want to consider that catastrophic electoral failure isn't a very good reason to focus on change.

You might want to ask yourself why a life long Labour voter and a long term Labour party member can be comfortable in the lib dems without changing their political compass and why the party have no problem accepting my views and asked me to stand for election,again.

How you feel happy in the centre-Right party which brought us Austerity plus much higher Tuition fees - and which attempted until blocked by the Courts to introduce prohibitive fees to bring cases to Employment Tribunals - is a matter for your conscience.

[steve]

graham
Why you're stuck in the past is a matter for yours.
It's you who wish to actively vote against labour, I'm more than happy to see them replace Tories in seats not winnable for the lib dems.

[neilj]

Just put my postal vote into the town hall
No Labour candidate, so choice was tory, reform, ex tory or Lib-dem, no choice for me, went with Lib-dem

[steve]

Dolt 45 apparently going for the convicted rapist status that no doubt will prove popular with his misogynist base.

youtu.be/6TVOJ7-q2A4

[steve]

Interesting concept the Overton window, here some try to cast the liberal democrats as some how right wing, similarly casting the Labour party as even further right.

If either party stood in the USA the fascist GOP would describe us both as radical lunatic communists.

[patrickbrian]

local elections:

in my ward, (Totnes) only the Lib Dems have mad any serious attempt to get our votes - three leaflets through the door, latest today. As against one from the Greens, and nothing at all from labour. One from Con months ago. There are three seats up for grabs.

I would guess that Labour have a bad post-Corbyn hangover, as he brought in a mass of new members in the town who pissed off all the old labour people, but are now pissed off themselves and I presume have moved on.

I expect my wife and I will give all of our six votes (between us) to the Lib Dems, just because they seem interested, and the leading Green candidate is a person I find quite irritating. There's local politics for you! I don't think Totnes is in any way typical, but the results will be interesting.

btw - hardly a street party or bunting to be seen- apathy rules!

[graham]

May 2, 2023 14:11:11 GMT steve said:

graham
Why you're stuck in the past is a matter for yours.
It's you who wish to actively vote against labour, I'm more than happy to see them replace Tories in seats not winnable for the lib dems.

Some of us are happy to learn from the past whilst others appear determined to repeat the mistakes made.

I will certainly vote against a Labour party committed to policies which I consistently opposed when advocated and implemented by the Tories. To do otherwise would be pure hypocrisy. When Lawson slashed the top rate of Income Tax from 60% to 40% in the 1988 Budget Labour was outraged - yet has failed to lift a finger to reverse it even when gifted a massive majority. A few years later Major's government introduced charges for eye and dental check ups. Labour promised to reverse those charges - but never did. Utter hypocrisy and humbug! It was good to read Lawson's obituary recently - and frankly some of us would not be too unhappy to read Starmer's in the near future.

[neilj]

RedfieldWilton red wall

[steve]

graham
So in other words you last voted Labour in 1997, some 18 years before my last vote for the party.
I don't think they'll be exceptionally concerned about not getting your vote especially as you just wished their leader dies soon!

I left the party partially because of Corbyn's leadership, I most certainly didn't wish him dead because of my disagreements.

Bizarre comment which hopefully was an attempt at humour otherwise beyond acceptable.

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:05:43 GMT steve said:

graham
So in other words you last voted Labour in 1997, some 18 years before my last vote for the party.
I don't think they'll be exceptionally concerned about not getting your vote especially as you just wished their leader dies soon!

I did not quite say that - but you are wrong again . I voted Labour in 2015 and 2017 - and certainly did not vote Labour in 1997.

[pjw1961]

May 2, 2023 8:41:09 GMT oldnat said:

May 2, 2023 6:57:24 GMT kay9 said:

I recognise the difference you make between “EN” and “BN”, and think this is a better way of putting it.

so anyone who liked my original post would self-identify as an English Nationalist?

Mike Small addresses the NatCon phenomenon that has become so dominant in (primarily) English right wing circles, and places it firmly in the context of England/Britain's post-imperial and now post-Brexit paranoia.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2023/05/01/britain-and-the-new-national-conservatism/

Frost's attack on devolution is part of that paranoia - The UK is a “supplicant to the devolved administrations”. Brexit must be re-done and done again, this time liberating the, er, UK, from, er, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Last month, pjw1961 dismissed Scots concerns about Frost's influence thus -
"That is the same David Frost who negotiated an agreement with the EU that he subsequently admitted he hadn't understood and demanded be renegotiated; who resigned from Boris Johnson's government because - so he claimed - it was full of "neo-socialists, green fanatics and pro-woke crowd;" and who still burbles on about the "benefits of Brexit." He is the idiot's idiot and can't be cited as typical of anything apart from the very extreme end of neo-conservatism. I don't know of anyone else, including Tories, who thinks the Scottish parliament is the equivalent of a council. I suspect even Frost doesn't - he is just being deliberately offensive for the 'fun' of it."

That a reasonable Labour activist fails to see the danger of Frost (and, therefore, the NatCon movement in which he is a significant influence) is concerning.

The creation of a new concept of "Britain" - a unitary nation founded on (often) invented tradition, veneration of the Monarch and the Christianity which he is seen to embody, fear of difference, exceptionalism and othering - is not a threat to be lightly dismissed. Extreme right wing nationalism can attract support precisely because individual aspects can appeal to particular groups, who simultaneously dismiss other aspects as "froth" which won't be implemented or - if they are - won't affect them.

The whole NatCon agenda needs to be opposed root and branch, not selectively pruned.

If you read all my posts you will find I take the Tories move to the extreme right very seriously and I regard the fact that Braverman and Badenoch are seen as rising stars and future leaders as deeply concerning. I just don't take Frosty the idiot especially seriously. Nor does he seem influential - the others I have mentioned are.  

[pjw1961]

My take on today's Starmer comments. I am relaxed on the tuition fee one as I can also think of plenty of things I would rather see £9bn spent on. On the other hand I'm not happy with the tax policy. I would happy tax the rich until the pips squeaked (to borrow Healey's phrase).

[steamdrivenandy]

Just popped back and read the last few posts. I'm left wondering which party graham and shevii would actually vote for in an election, given that an abstention is effectively another vote for the Tories?

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:16:45 GMT pjw1961 said:

My take on today's Starmer comments. I am relaxed on the tuition fee one as I can also think of plenty of things I would rather see £9bn spent on. On the other hand I'm not happy with the tax policy. I would happy tax the rich until the pips squeaked (to borrow Healey's phrase).

Starmer benefitted from free tuition fees himself in the early 1980s - yet is perfectly happy to deprive others.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

May 2, 2023 12:41:03 GMT domjg said:

May 2, 2023 12:18:33 GMT graham said:

Increasingly it looks as if a vote for Starmer is a vote to cement the Tory legacy - just as a Labour vote in 1997 was a vote to confirm the Thatcherite legacy. Not interested.

And yet for the sake of your own pique you are interested in being an enabler for a tory party that is willing to demonise and cause suffering not only to refugees who have undergone extreme hardship but also established British communities, to make them doubt their place here, to cause anxiety for them and their children. It's always interesting to see where people's priorities lie. Gives a good insight into their sense of morality. 

There are a lot of right wing “progressives” who aren’t very progressive and who don’t have much criticism for the Blairites who operated against Corbyn. They don’t give them a hard time for wanting the Tories and the policies that followed. And they don’t care as Starmer seems to keep moving closer to the Tories. 

They clearly want a return to Blairism: retain the Thatcherite economics but with a bit more on public services and immigration. I.e. everyday Liberalism. 

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:20:50 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

Just popped back and read the last few posts. I'm left wondering which party graham and shevii would actually vote for in an election, given that an abstention is effectively another vote for the Tories?

Perhaps you should add that de facto a Labour vote looks increasingly like a vote for Tory policies.

[steve]

graham
"It was good to read Lawson's obituary recently - and frankly some of us would not be too unhappy to read Starmer's in the near future"

So you did say that you wouldn't be unhappy if Starmer died.
Same difference.

Putting that aside it also would appear that your support for Labour since 1997 is rather inferior to mine I voted for Labour at every election from 1979 to 2015 with the exception of 1983 when an arrest meant I missed the poll so maybe I will forgo the lectures on vote choice.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

You can vote for a party in a seat where it makes little difference and yet campaign vociferously against them in many respects. Many Blairites sabotaging Corbyn might have “voted Labour”, while shafting them up the wazoo.

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:24:34 GMT steve said:

graham
"It was good to read Lawson's obituary recently - and frankly some of us would not be too unhappy to read Starmer's in the near future"

So you did say that you wouldn't be unhappy if Starmer died.
Same difference.

Putting that aside it also would appear that your support for Labour since 1997 is rather inferior to mine I voted for Labour at every election from 1979 to 2015 with the exception of 1983 when an arrest meant I missed the poll so maybe I will forgo the lectures on vote choice.

To express indifference re - someone's demise is not actually wishing it to occur - simply a statement that I would be less than grief stricken.

[steve]

graham

It isn't my party anymore and particularly on the relationship between the UK and Europe and fair voting I have fundamental difficulties with Labour but it's absurd to say they are just like the Tories.

[steve]

Any Labour supporters like to step in and support your party?

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

May 2, 2023 16:28:44 GMT steve said:

Any Labour supporters like to step in and support your party?

I think some of them might like your party rather more Steve! Ever notice how they hardly ever disagree with you?! 

[pjw1961]

May 2, 2023 16:21:49 GMT graham said:

May 2, 2023 16:16:45 GMT pjw1961 said:

My take on today's Starmer comments. I am relaxed on the tuition fee one as I can also think of plenty of things I would rather see £9bn spent on. On the other hand I'm not happy with the tax policy. I would happy tax the rich until the pips squeaked (to borrow Healey's phrase).

Starmer benefitted from free tuition fees himself in the early 1980s - yet is perfectly happy to deprive others.

Government is about choices. I appreciate you would prefer to be permanently in opposition while the Tories in power move ever further to the right. 

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

May 2, 2023 16:31:24 GMT pjw1961 said:

May 2, 2023 16:21:49 GMT graham said:

Starmer benefitted from free tuition fees himself in the early 1980s - yet is perfectly happy to deprive others.

Government is about choices. I appreciate you would prefer to be permanently in opposition while the Tories in power move ever further to the right. 

Blairites were quite happy to give Corbyn a hard time and the “progressives” don’t complain to them about the Tory policies we have seen since then. 

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:28:10 GMT steve said:

graham

It isn't my party anymore and particularly on the relationship between the UK and Europe and fair voting I have fundamental difficulties with Labour but it's absurd to say they are just like the Tories.

It is not at all absurd when Labour fails to reverse Tory policies when presented with opportunities to do so. Blair went further than Thatcher with privatisation.  Johnson actually renationalised some rail lines.

[pjw1961]

May 2, 2023 16:28:44 GMT steve said:

Any Labour supporters like to step in and support your party?

There are many on here who prefer the purity of the totally clear conscience you can can have by sitting in impotent opposition, never doing anything but free to moan about the Tory government. I have no time for that attitude. 

[graham]

May 2, 2023 16:31:24 GMT pjw1961 said:

May 2, 2023 16:21:49 GMT graham said:

Starmer benefitted from free tuition fees himself in the early 1980s - yet is perfectly happy to deprive others.

Government is about choices. I appreciate you would prefer to be permanently in opposition while the Tories in power move ever further to the right. 

Government is about choices - and in Starmer's case it is about choosing to carry on with Tory policies.