pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 28, 2023 23:26:20 GMT
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, but the article I linked to made the point that Jews are sometimes considered white and sometimes not depending on what suits the agenda of the viewer and that the Irish suffered what can only be described as racial discrimination in the 19th century USA. Worth a read - there is more to racism than skin pigmentation. Bear with me on this, as I am clearly out of touch with how some people think. This isn't a wind-up or 'trolling', I'm just confused. I think you're saying that racism is based on nationality rather than race? So if an Englishman said he didn't like Germans and discriminated against them that would be racism in your view? How about if a Scot or Welshman said he didn't like the English? These various groups are genetically pretty similar and indeed will likely share common ancestors in relatively recent times. Therefore in my view those examples (or your Irish in America) wouldn't be racist. Prejudiced perhaps but not racist. This is the article I was referring to which it explains the reference: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/27/diane-abbott-racism-letter-racial-politicsThe simplest rule in life is not stereotype or be rude about any group of people on the basis of what they are (whether that refers to race, nationality, disability, sex, gender, age or sexuality). You can still call out individual bad behaviour based on facts, but don't attack whole groups. Personally I'm a little more ambivalent about things like religion and politics because those are learned behaviours and to some degree a matter of choice rather than characteristics people have no control over, but the law covers religion too, so naturally one follows that. |
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Post by hireton on Apr 29, 2023 7:14:21 GMT
Lucid Talk polling on support for the monarchy in Northern Ireland:
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 7:19:11 GMT
More Brexit bonuses www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/29/briton-valid-passport-barred-from-flight-brexit-rules-euRosi Simpson, a teacher from Brighton, is one of the latest to be caught up in the confusion. She says she was left “mortified and in tears” after easyJet staff refused to allow her to board a flight to Paris to see her son, who is studying there, because her UK passport had been issued 10 years and one day previously. “I had no idea of the 10-year rule,” she says. “I’d checked the expiry date, and my passport had eight months remaining. What happened at the boarding gate was absolutely awful. I lost the cost of the flight and the accommodation I’d booked – I’d been so looking forward to seeing my son – all because a load of wankers voted for Brexit. "  |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 7:20:38 GMT
hiretonThe alliance figured I find the most interesting, not just because I agree with them.
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Post by thylacine on Apr 29, 2023 8:17:48 GMT
Lucid Talk polling on support for the monarchy in Northern Ireland: A reminder of how stark that sectarian divide is and in my opinion how fragile the peace still is. If the Tories manage to f**k it up they will deserve to rot in hell. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 29, 2023 8:47:59 GMT
Bear with me on this, as I am clearly out of touch with how some people think. This isn't a wind-up or 'trolling', I'm just confused. I think you're saying that racism is based on nationality rather than race? So if an Englishman said he didn't like Germans and discriminated against them that would be racism in your view? How about if a Scot or Welshman said he didn't like the English? These various groups are genetically pretty similar and indeed will likely share common ancestors in relatively recent times. Therefore in my view those examples (or your Irish in America) wouldn't be racist. Prejudiced perhaps but not racist. This is the article I was referring to which it explains the reference: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/27/diane-abbott-racism-letter-racial-politicsThe simplest rule in life is not stereotype or be rude about any group of people on the basis of what they are (whether that refers to race, nationality, disability, sex, gender, age or sexuality). You can still call out individual bad behaviour based on facts, but don't attack whole groups. Personally I'm a little more ambivalent about things like religion and politics because those are learned behaviours and to some degree a matter of choice rather than characteristics people have no control over, but the law covers religion too, so naturally one follows that. Religion does have to included as unlike politics it's most often something deeply ingrained as part of a group or individual's identity. To paraphrase Dara O'Briain if you're brought up Catholic you can become an atheist in later life but you are still of course a Catholic atheist.. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 29, 2023 9:06:36 GMT
Religion does have to included as unlike politics it's most often something deeply ingrained as part of a group or individual's identity. To paraphrase Dara O'Briain if you're brought up Catholic you can become an atheist in later life but you are still of course a Catholic atheist.. “Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.” - Aristotle, but usually ascribed to the Jesuits. |
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Apr 29, 2023 9:17:10 GMT
An Irish view on "control of our borders" : the Common Travel Area : Tory frustration with NI Unionists
www.irishpost.com/comment/further-dimensions-to-the-border-question-252498
"Last month, Leo Varadkar told the Dáil that he was reviewing Irish border security to “make sure that people who shouldn’t get into the State aren’t able to get into State”.
To that end, he had met with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) and the Border Management Unit of the Department of Justice to discuss growing concerns.
In particular, he said there has been an increase in people ‘coming from north to south, people coming from Britain or Northern Ireland into the Republic and seeking international protection here.’
Desperate, no doubt, to find a better life and escape Britain’s flatlining economy, collapsing public services and increasingly unstable political system."
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 29, 2023 10:11:50 GMT
An Irish view on "control of our borders" : the Common Travel Area : Tory frustration with NI Unionists
www.irishpost.com/comment/further-dimensions-to-the-border-question-252498
"Last month, Leo Varadkar told the Dáil that he was reviewing Irish border security to “make sure that people who shouldn’t get into the State aren’t able to get into State”.
To that end, he had met with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) and the Border Management Unit of the Department of Justice to discuss growing concerns.
In particular, he said there has been an increase in people ‘coming from north to south, people coming from Britain or Northern Ireland into the Republic and seeking international protection here.’
Desperate, no doubt, to find a better life and escape Britain’s flatlining economy, collapsing public services and increasingly unstable political system." When you look at who is in the DUP and TUV, I wouldn't blame Varadkar for not wanting them in a United Ireland, let alone in the Irish Republic. Could they be sent back to where their ancestors came from. Lowland Scotland and the Borders wasn't it?  |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,617
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 29, 2023 10:14:47 GMT
This is the article I was referring to which it explains the reference: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/27/diane-abbott-racism-letter-racial-politicsThe simplest rule in life is not stereotype or be rude about any group of people on the basis of what they are (whether that refers to race, nationality, disability, sex, gender, age or sexuality). You can still call out individual bad behaviour based on facts, but don't attack whole groups. Personally I'm a little more ambivalent about things like religion and politics because those are learned behaviours and to some degree a matter of choice rather than characteristics people have no control over, but the law covers religion too, so naturally one follows that. Religion does have to included as unlike politics it's most often something deeply ingrained as part of a group or individual's identity. To paraphrase Dara O'Briain if you're brought up Catholic you can become an atheist in later life but you are still of course a Catholic atheist.. Indeed, which is why I said it is "to some degree a matter of choice" as most religious people are simply being indoctrinated from birth (something I regard as deeply offensive and wrong), but it is not the whole picture as there are people who as adults switch religion or chose one having previously had no strong beliefs, which I have a lot less issues with. My ambivalence comes from the fact that I can see that sweeping statements about religious groups (say: "all Catholics are traitors" or "all Muslims are terrorists", both of which can be found in the British past or present) indeed come from prejudice and are hurtful, wrong and dangerous in stirring up divisions and hated and so should not be allowed. On the other hand I want to be free to criticise the practices and negative impacts of all religions without anyone trying to prevent it on the grounds of prejudice. Something as important as religion can't be given a free pass from criticism. |
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domjg
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Posts: 5,149
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Post by domjg on Apr 29, 2023 10:47:21 GMT
An Irish view on "control of our borders" : the Common Travel Area : Tory frustration with NI Unionists
www.irishpost.com/comment/further-dimensions-to-the-border-question-252498
"Last month, Leo Varadkar told the Dáil that he was reviewing Irish border security to “make sure that people who shouldn’t get into the State aren’t able to get into State”.
To that end, he had met with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) and the Border Management Unit of the Department of Justice to discuss growing concerns.
In particular, he said there has been an increase in people ‘coming from north to south, people coming from Britain or Northern Ireland into the Republic and seeking international protection here.’
Desperate, no doubt, to find a better life and escape Britain’s flatlining economy, collapsing public services and increasingly unstable political system." When you look at who is in the DUP and TUV, I wouldn't blame Varadkar for not wanting them in a United Ireland, let alone in the Irish Republic. Could they be sent back to where their ancestors came from. Lowland Scotland and the Borders wasn't it? The independent Ireland that came into being was of course almost completely homogeneously Catholic due to the actions of the British state in bringing about partition which is partly why in the 20th century Irishness and Catholicism became so synonymous. The original idea though was for an inclusive, multi faith Irish identity and it's often forgotten that the orange in the Irish tricolour is meant to represent and include protestantism in the Irish national project. |
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Post by wb61 on Apr 29, 2023 11:43:34 GMT
Religion does have to included as unlike politics it's most often something deeply ingrained as part of a group or individual's identity. To paraphrase Dara O'Briain if you're brought up Catholic you can become an atheist in later life but you are still of course a Catholic atheist.. Indeed, which is why I said it is "to some degree a matter of choice" as most religious people are simply being indoctrinated from birth (something I regard as deeply offensive and wrong), but it is not the whole picture as there are people who as adults switch religion or chose one having previously had no strong beliefs, which I have a lot less issues with. My ambivalence comes from the fact that I can see that sweeping statements about religious groups (say: "all Catholics are traitors" or "all Muslims are terrorists", both of which can be found in the British past or present) indeed come from prejudice and are hurtful, wrong and dangerous in stirring up divisions and hated and so should not be allowed. On the other hand I want to be free to criticise the practices and negative impacts of all religions without anyone trying to prevent it on the grounds of prejudice. Something as important as religion can't be given a free pass from criticism. You might find this useful as a basic explainer, because the law does prevent discrimination on the grounds of religion or "philosophical" belief, which it is argued could stretch to some political stances: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/check-if-youre-protected-from-discrimination/religion-or-belief-discrimination/ |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,617
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 29, 2023 12:50:33 GMT
Indeed, which is why I said it is "to some degree a matter of choice" as most religious people are simply being indoctrinated from birth (something I regard as deeply offensive and wrong), but it is not the whole picture as there are people who as adults switch religion or chose one having previously had no strong beliefs, which I have a lot less issues with. My ambivalence comes from the fact that I can see that sweeping statements about religious groups (say: "all Catholics are traitors" or "all Muslims are terrorists", both of which can be found in the British past or present) indeed come from prejudice and are hurtful, wrong and dangerous in stirring up divisions and hated and so should not be allowed. On the other hand I want to be free to criticise the practices and negative impacts of all religions without anyone trying to prevent it on the grounds of prejudice. Something as important as religion can't be given a free pass from criticism. You might find this useful as a basic explainer, because the law does prevent discrimination on the grounds of religion or "philosophical" belief, which it is argued could stretch to some political stances: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/check-if-youre-protected-from-discrimination/religion-or-belief-discrimination/Being a public sector worker, I gets lots of training on all this sort of thing and - obviously - I am not planning on actually discriminating against anyone on the grounds of religion and belief (or anything else for that matter). In a work context my rule has always been that religion and politics are subjects best avoided anyway. However, it is the implications of treating irrational belief systems as protected that worries me - for example, your link mentions sprititualism as a protected belief. I don't accept that all ways of thinking about the world are equally useful or valid and we need to be able to prioritise the findings of scientific materialist rationalism over all the bogus nonsense. An example would be the claims of anti-vaccine campaigners and to take another specific example from health:- currently no forms of homeopathy are available free on the NHS because homeopathy is nonsense on stilts*. However, there are lots of people who 'believe' in homeopathy (including King Charles, so it is said). Does that mean they could say they are being discriminated against by the NHS? Hopefully not, because that direction leads back into the darkness of the pre-enlightenment world of superstition. *homeopathy can seemingly 'work' by triggering the placebo effect, but then so can sugar pills and tap water, or witch doctors driving out non-existent spirits, so that means nothing whatever. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 29, 2023 13:12:41 GMT
Cringeworthy and what about Long Eaton the team they are playing, also a Tory constituency
You just know Sunak is not a genuine football supporter, reminded me of when he put on an England shirt and left the price tag on
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steve
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Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 14:13:34 GMT
In nasty little misogynistic internet troll news www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/29/stella-creasy-targeted-by-troll-who-tried-to-have-her-children-removed-reportCreasy said “The normal reaction would be utter horror at the suggestion my children should be taken away because someone disagrees with my views,” Creasy told the Times. “Yet these police officers think I should accept it because I’m in the public eye.” Stella Creasy is calling for malicious reports to social services to be treated as seriously as a false report to police, which involves the offence of wasting police time or perverting the course of justice. I think she has a valid point |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 14:18:50 GMT
neilj Sunak seems to only have one available expression whether it's defending the latest corruption in the regime the latest self induced crisis in the economy or pretending to an interest in normal sporting activities he has that same I'm so rich I couldn't give a toss smirk on his gob. Attachment Deleted
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steve
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Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 14:31:33 GMT
Brexit failure explained. It's all the fault of a remainer institutional " mind virus" Does this virus involve having functional brain cells? Where's our resident virus expert Alec when we need him? youtu.be/GnsG7enOM6U |
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Post by mercian on Apr 29, 2023 14:31:44 GMT
An example would be the claims of anti-vaccine campaigners and to take another specific example from health:- currently no forms of homeopathy are available free on the NHS because homeopathy is nonsense on stilts*. However, there are lots of people who 'believe' in homeopathy (including King Charles, so it is said). Does that mean they could say they are being discriminated against by the NHS? Hopefully not, because that direction leads back into the darkness of the pre-enlightenment world of superstition. *homeopathy can seemingly 'work' by triggering the placebo effect, but then so can sugar pills and tap water, or witch doctors driving out non-existent spirits, so that means nothing whatever. "It stopped providing NHS-funded homeopathic remedies in April 2018" So that would count as a good achievement by the Tories then? |
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Post by thylacine on Apr 29, 2023 14:59:39 GMT
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Post by chrisc on Apr 29, 2023 15:09:52 GMT
A good decision. But has been noted, not one instigated by Tories or the government but the NHS. At least the government - or Prince Charles - didn’t interfere to stop the decision though!
I was always a bit surprised when UCL(H) took on this hospital. But I’m pleased that it’s direction of travel was changed although the instigators seems to have been the NHS clinical commissioning group at Camden and not the university.
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steve
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Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Apr 29, 2023 15:10:05 GMT
Now chancellor Jeremy Hunt made millions out of alternative medicine including homeopathy, as health minister he stopped the nhs funding but of course didn't hand back the £15 million he'd already pocketed.
Presumably there was just the smell of cash where the cash used to be!
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,617
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 29, 2023 15:13:22 GMT
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Post by John Chanin on Apr 29, 2023 17:57:31 GMT
The almost complete absence of people with a scientific background in parliament comes to embarrassing attention from time to time. Responses to the coronavirus wasn't their finest hour either. And both energy and climate policy show some regrettable ignorance from many, not to speak of pesticides and genetic modification. The great advantage Labour have at the moment is that they are not in government, so can avoid egregious error by simply saying nothing positive and attacking the Conservatives. |
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Post by Mark on Apr 29, 2023 18:05:32 GMT
An article in this week's Economist says Ukraine must receive modern Western aircraft like F-16s or Gripens to ensure the Russians aren't able to gain air superiority over part or all of the country as air defences are run ragged, severely effecting ground operations. If Russian bombers were able to roam up to the borders with Poland and Romania we'd have to do something about it anyway. I'm not worried by a direct military confrontation with Russia, I think it's coming at some point whether we choose it or not and when it happens I think they'll fold like a pack of cards. Would send a strong symbol of resolve to China as well. Events like the attacks last night make me almost wish for it. I admire your optimism. Our defence spending has been woefully inadequate for decades and I see no sign of it ramping up. It's a bit like 1938 when a lot of people seemed to think that H*tler wasn't really a serious threat even after he annexed Austria. I really don't think that is a valid cmparison. Russia is bogged down in Ukraine. They are short of both weapons and soldiers. They are having a hard time in even holding onto areas of Ukraine they have. That is not a power that is going to invade anywhere else anytime soon, except maybe one or two small, sei-friendly soft targets. Putin also knows that if he touched a NATO country, he'd get his arse handed to him. Having said that, the one thing Putin does have is nuclear weapons. Despite his bluster, he's not in a hurry to use such a weapon in Ukraine.....but, if we get into a shooting match with him, that is a different matter. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 29, 2023 18:34:32 GMT
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Post by hireton on Apr 29, 2023 18:34:36 GMT
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Post by alec on Apr 29, 2023 18:37:22 GMT
thylacine - "Although in fairness there were an astonishing number of believers in homeopathy on all sides of the house" Indeed. Some of them appear to retain some kind of memory of what it means to be an MP.
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Post by alec on Apr 29, 2023 18:40:38 GMT
I always liked the famous tenor Placebo Domingo.
I never knew why, but his singing just made me feel better.
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Post by James E on Apr 29, 2023 18:41:05 GMT
An 18-point labour lead with Opinium is a really surprising - perhaps just an outlier? Their re-weighting methodology has previously put them around 5-7 points lower than other pollsters. Now they show the highest Lab-lead of all recent polls.
I would have expected a lead of around 9 points, given that the latest youGov showed Laabour 14% ahead.
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Post by alec on Apr 29, 2023 18:42:12 GMT
steve - "Where's our resident virus expert Alec when we need him?" The Brexit mind virus may appear 'mild' at first, but believe me, the long term effects are devastating.
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