steve
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Post by steve on Oct 17, 2022 11:31:17 GMT
leftieliberalFrom the Roman historian Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Tacitus was writing around a century after the events and while some of his other recorded events are tinged with a whole bucket full of Roman propaganda in general they do refer reasonably accurately to actual historic events. As it happens Tacitus wasn't very keen on Christians but of course he didn't have to be to record events. There is of course no historical evidence for any of the mystical stuff, miracles and ascending sky buddies and the like. But there were a fair few mystical leaders around in Judaea at the time and Jesus appears to have been one of the most influential.
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Post by alec on Oct 17, 2022 11:41:56 GMT
Hard to argue with this, from Ian Dunt:
"These people. Not just Truss. Johnson and May too. They've dismantled this country, day by day and week by week. Trading competence for populism, planning for will, responsibility for tribalism. Criminally irresponsible."
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 17, 2022 11:50:40 GMT
Apparently the only people not now in the anti growth coalition are to be found at 55 Tufton Street.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 11:54:39 GMT
I have vague memories of our colin explaining why Truss' 2 year freeze was better than Labour's miserly six month proposal, which was, in fact, far, far better when considering the fiscal position and the need to adapt and adjust as time ticks by. Will be interesting to see the response from many of those Tories now. Faisal Islam has just said on daily politics that a big chunk of market concern was that Kwarteng had effectively linked the fortunes of UK Public Finances to the international market price of gas for two years . First time I have heard that said. ps-I agree that it wasn't sustainable . |
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Post by alec on Oct 17, 2022 12:01:37 GMT
Far more sensible briefings from unnamed treasury officials on the energy price cap. they are saying that it will be more like the German initiative, where there is help for some, and/or up to a certain level, with market prices beyond that. The major failure of the Truss debacle was that she instantly removed any incentive to be more efficient, which harms the countries long term well being as well as consumer finances. She compounded this daftness with the willful stupidity of stopping any energy efficiency guidance.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Oct 17, 2022 12:05:21 GMT
Lindsay Hoyle has granted Keir Starmer an urgent question to ask Truss to make a statement on the replacement of the chancellor of the exchequer during the current economic situation before Jeremy Hunt’s statement
Truss could send a Junior Minister to answer, but that would not be a good look for her
Will she last the day?
As I said on Friday I would expect more Cabinet resignations this week
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Post by alec on Oct 17, 2022 12:06:37 GMT
colin - "First time I have heard that said." Really? A very similar sentiment was expressed on here, by those of us who said a 6 month window with readjustments as appropriate after that was much more sensible, and even if you weren't paying attention, it's a little surprising that you didn't twig this for yourself. It's such an obvious flaw it can be seen from space. In fact, I think you did actually understand the issue anyway, as I recall you posted about how temporary energy price falls had let HMG a little off the hook, reducing the projected cost of the cap. I have a memory that you actually posted some figures on this, but I could be wrong. Perhaps you were a little too quick to look for clear blue water between Truss' proposal and that duffer Starmer?
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Oct 17, 2022 12:09:02 GMT
But there were a fair few mystical leaders around in Judaea at the time and Jesus appears to have been one of the most influential. I wonder who was in which: The Judean Peoples' Front, and The Peoples' Front of Judea. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 17, 2022 12:22:42 GMT
Attachment DeletedComedy gold award today goes to Liz Truss. Tweeting a claim to credit for reversing her own policies.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 17, 2022 12:30:05 GMT
Without wanting to sound too much like crossbat I am getting somewhat weary that the only people I have heard interviewed about this debacle on the BBC over the last few days have been Conservative back benchers, former Conservative SPADS and advisors and journalists from Conservative learning newspapers and magazines. Some of them have mentioned the British economy but the main interest of the interviewing BBC journo's seems to be what impact it all has on internal Conservative Party politics.
I have heard it rumoured that opposition parties do exist and might have something to say, but apparently we don't need to hear from them.
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Post by shevii on Oct 17, 2022 12:32:52 GMT
phew-and thats just the reaction to HUnt not Kwarteng. Statement later -hopefully consolidates. Next priority-a new centre ground leader prepared to face down the ( reasonable) calls for a GE. Spend two years recovering some confidence in UK's Public Finances and the Tory Party's sanity. Only appoint someone prepared to stay through 5 years of opposition to rediscover the soul and purpose of the Conservative Party ready for 2029 This is bare minimum stuff though and even someone like McDonnell, who was someone quite comfortable with revolutionary change, had his eyes on market reaction had Lab won in 2017 (2019) and had plans to calm the markets. We still get the cuts in stamp duty which seem counterproductive unless the aim is to avoid a housing price crash and the last stamp duty cut certainly ended up booming the housing market rather than stabilising. This also fixes in economic policy that forever seems to involve higher house prices producing mini booms before making life harder for so many. We still have the reversal of the NIC rises which ended up being relatively progressive, and still a clear inclination to cut public services when NHS, social care and education are without doubt in a serious crisis. Also fine on the 6 months rather than the two years open ended commitment on heating bills, but it still doesn't change the fact that unless energy prices have dropped (or wages have risen) we're still in the same situation is 6 months. So Hunt is not even up to the Sunak standard on finances. So while you can heave a huge sigh of relief that the basics of economic policy have been fixed rather than the beginnings of a Greece meltdown, it's not a fix for the country as a whole. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Oct 17, 2022 12:34:17 GMT
leftieliberal From the Roman historian Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Tacitus was writing around a century after the events and while some of his other recorded events are tinged with a whole bucket full of Roman propaganda in general they do refer reasonably accurately to actual historic events. As it happens Tacitus wasn't very keen on Christians but of course he didn't have to be to record events. There is of course no historical evidence for any of the mystical stuff, miracles and ascending sky buddies and the like. But there were a fair few mystical leaders around in Judaea at the time and Jesus appears to have been one of the most influential. You should really be quoting the Jewish-Roman historian Josephus, who was born no more than a few years (36-37 CE) after Jesus' crucifixion and also referred to him. Although there is argument about just how much of what he wrote was subsequently modified by Christians who copied his writings and so preserved them for posterity, the mentions of Jesus and also his brother James (who was killed by the Jewish Chief Priest in 62 CE in the interregnum between Roman governors) are generally taken to be in the original. Jewish Antiquities is normally assumed to have been written around 93-94 CE, so around 60 and 30 years after these events. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 12:37:16 GMT
Number ten spokesperson: “ The prime minister is demonstrating that she is able to make the difficult decisions necessary to provide the leadership for this country.” Well, that sounds jolly good then.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 12:39:42 GMT
Without wanting to get too sound too much like crossbat… Nobody likes to sound as though they’re batty. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 17, 2022 12:42:26 GMT
There was a headline in the Telegraph yesterday to a paywall article which argued? that the Tories would never stabilise as long as they were gripped by cognitive dissonance: namely, that their absolute faith in Brexit was completely undisturbed by any evidence that things were not going well. But this dissonance seems in practice to grip Labour & even the Lib Dems: Labour accept the sanctity, if not the perfection, of the post-Brexit arrangements, for fear of re-awakening the Kraken of the Red Wall or the "left-behind" Leave voters, who were an essential part of Johnson's '19 Coalition. This is not an original point: but if the Brexit arrangements are a serious drag on the economy then it does seem v odd that we can sail thru the next 2 years & even a GE without discussing the Jumbo in the room. There is no cognitive dissonance in conservative policy. To become the government they had to embrace brexit. There was lots of rowing over that within parliament after the vote and under May, but in the end they accepted brexit as the price of winning an election. Any harm to the Uk economy doesnt matter, not at least until the next election comes round and then the matter might be reconsidered, as perhaps is starting to happen now. On the other hand as you say, labour accepted brexit despite it being contrary to the wishes of its voters. For that matter, labour accepted the conservative claim that pre 2010 lab had mismanaged the economy. And they are still doing it! Whereas compared to how con have done for the last 12 years, it was a golden age, even in the period 2008-10. Lab have made themselves the shadow of con, with bugger all to differentiate them worth voting for. While con have taken for themselves the role of HM opposition, showing a clear debate within their own ranks, them taking action against themselves once matters become vot losers. They were the principle opposition to brexit. The principle opposition to lockdown. And now the principle opposition to Trussonomics. Con will abandon brexit the moment rejoin becomes a bigger vote winner. Well maybe not the exact moment because they ditched a lot of moderates and got in a lot of fanatics. But the economic logic is remorseless that Brexit has to be abandoned, and thats what they will do because thats what they need to do to win again. It still isnt directly about economics, but is about what voters think (only looseley related), and only about the minority which might vote con at that. Labour risk being sidelined as Con become the flagwaver for closer relations with the EU. Thats actually a clear potential winner, because now you would be stealing all those remainers who constitute the majority of lab voters. It makes no sense from a continuity perspective, but I dont see it would be any difficulty for con on current precedents to simply say, we left because thats what people wanted, but it was a terrible mistake and so we are going back. With a subtext that they too were misled and betrayed by Farage, UKIP and miscellaneous leavers. Just as the libs got shafted in the end, the DUP got shafted, so con will hope to permanently bury UKIP. And bury lab for having supported brexit, lockdown, and anything else they can swing. a lesson for anyone contemplating a partnership with con. lab outplayed at every step. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Oct 17, 2022 12:44:39 GMT
Lindsay Hoyle has granted Keir Starmer an urgent question to ask Truss to make a statement on the replacement of the chancellor of the exchequer during the current economic situation before Jeremy Hunt’s statement Truss could send a Junior Minister to answer, but that would not be a good look for her Will she last the day? As I said on Friday I would expect more Cabinet resignations this week I think that Ben Wallace, Secretary of State for Defence could be one of the first. It is inevitable from what Hunt said about public spending that the commitment to raise defence spending to 3% will have to be dropped (or become a long-term aspiration, which is the same thing). |
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Post by graham on Oct 17, 2022 12:46:43 GMT
The Opinium MRP survey appears to give Labour 15 seats in Scotland. LDs also win back Jo Swinson's seat.
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 17, 2022 12:54:59 GMT
pjw1961 If you want a more balanced reporting Sky News are far superior to the conservative broadcasting corporation.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 17, 2022 12:55:25 GMT
Number ten spokesperson: “ The prime minister is demonstrating that she is able to make the difficult decisions necessary to provide the leadership for this country.” Well, that sounds jolly good then. Perhaps she could take the 'difficult decision' to resign then. I think if I were Starmer I would start the next PMQs with something like: "Mr Speaker, I'm going to allow the Prime Minster additional time to answer my questions today in order to allow the opportunity for the Chancellor to tell her what she thinks." |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 12:55:43 GMT
I think Truss will do a Johnson and be forced out by ministers by the end of this week, with Hunt allowed to run unopposed as long-term caretaker leader.
I'm usually wrong though.
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steve
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Post by steve on Oct 17, 2022 12:57:42 GMT
 Liz Truss hiding in the fridge sending Penny Mordant out to answer urgent question on her competence. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 17, 2022 12:59:35 GMT
Time for a no confidence motion surely, Cons can bin Truss by accepting it Why? Con only got rid of Johnson because he became so unpopular. There was no credible candidate to replace him, and every con MP who held back from removing Johnson was absolutely right for fearing what would happen if he went. Truss was the consequence of the split voting system which landed MPs with a leader they couldnt support. But it was also a consequence of them too being divided so they were unable to stitch up the choice of new leader as happend with May.
As things stand Hunt is the prime minister. He controls the government. It should be him popping along to see the king, because he commands the majority in parliament despite not being the tory leader. They dont need to change leader, especially if Hunt doesnt want the actual job because its a dead end whatever happens destined to career end whoever has it at the next election. He might well like the image of sensible power behind the throne, especially if some MPs simply couldnt accept him formally in the role.
But the UK system is very fluid, and there isnt too much problem having a nominal leader while the real power lies elsewhere. We do it all the time with our pretend monarch.
News currently reporting that after Hunts intervention, taxes will actually be higher than before Kwarteng opened his mouth. Howevere there is still a £30bn or so annual deficit to be explained away. If markets are now more concerned than before, its because the continuing structural problems even before this intervention have been publicised. However, he was time limited the energy intervention to another 6 months, and a sensible chancellor acting in the way Hunt has, will use that time to arrange some sort of restructuring of the energy market which claws back huge profits. And he can dangle the prospect of that in formt of markets.
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Post by johntel on Oct 17, 2022 13:04:27 GMT
I have vague memories of our colin explaining why Truss' 2 year freeze was better than Labour's miserly six month proposal, which was, in fact, far, far better when considering the fiscal position and the need to adapt and adjust as time ticks by. Will be interesting to see the response from many of those Tories now. Why do you refer to 'our' Colin every single time alec? It's boring. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 17, 2022 13:12:48 GMT
Without wanting to too sound too much like crossbat I am getting somewhat weary that the only people I have heard interviewed about this debacle on the BBC over the last few days have been Conservative back benchers, former Conservative SPADS and advisors and journalists from Conservative learning newspapers and magazines. Some of them have mentioned the British economy but the main interest of the interviewing BBC journo's seems to be what impact it all has on internal Conservative Party politics. To be brutally honest con have been the principle opposition to brexit, to lockdown and now to Truss. Why interview lab at all? |
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Post by johntel on Oct 17, 2022 13:33:06 GMT
Fine lines, Batty, fine lines. Actually my wife is from Brum and supports the Villa, not that she knows anything about football. Your good wife may know very little about football but her choice of football clubs suggests that, relatively speaking, she may at least know rather more than you. By the way, will your avatar photo choice, Jesse Lingard, be stood down to commemorate his first goal for the club? Next season maybe? He should tear up the Championship! 🥴😂 Water off a duck's back old bean - my avatar was intended slightly ironically from the start anyway. I don't think any other teams have hit the heights and sunk to the lows as Forest over the years, so I view the current situation with equanimity. I did at least get to see that thug Haaland score a hat-trick in the flesh :-) PS glad to see Cashy doing well for you. |
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Post by johntel on Oct 17, 2022 13:36:41 GMT
I'll stop posting about football now, but I would like to mention that today's Wordle
is even more out of order than the usual Americanisms.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 13:47:15 GMT
I'll stop posting about football now, but I would like to mention that today's Wordle is even more out of order than the usual Americanisms.
Like the vast majority of words in the current English language, today's Wordle word comes originally from another language. I don't want to spoil it for anyone so won't mention the actual word, but as a connoisseur [apologies - another foreign entry] I already knew this word and can confirm it appears in English dictionaries. I believe it has other meanings as well as the lovely alcohol-related one I associate it with.
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Post by alec on Oct 17, 2022 13:50:57 GMT
johntel - "I'll stop posting about football now, but I would like to mention that today's Wordle is even more out of order than the usual Americanisms." And you think the affectionate use of 'our colin' is boring?
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Post by bardin1 on Oct 17, 2022 13:55:30 GMT
I'll stop posting about football now, but I would like to mention that today's Wordle is even more out of order than the usual Americanisms. Wordle 485 4/6 🟩⬜🟩⬜⬜ 🟩⬜🟩⬜🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟨⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 It would be very funny if Penny Mordaunt dressed up in Thatcher outfit and did the hand mannerisms and slow talking |
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Post by crossbat11 on Oct 17, 2022 13:58:55 GMT
I'll stop posting about football now, but I would like to mention that today's Wordle is even more out of order than the usual Americanisms. Very good decision, old bean. The football bit anyway. Not sure about Wordle. Wordle banter not being my thing. |
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