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Post by jib on Oct 14, 2022 20:51:15 GMT
My own hope would be they tear each other apart and consign the party to the history books. If Labour win, and if they then bring PR, then depending on the type of PR, we could see the right split into a Heseltine type faction and the ERG / UKIP faction. However, Labour have to win a FPTP election first, and those who win FPTP are often quite unwilling to consider giving up or sharing that absolute power via PR! |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,620
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 14, 2022 20:59:54 GMT
I want to have a pint of whatever pjw1961 has been drinking. Probably Braintree IPA Super Strength. That was some dream he had there. Mainly Greene King round here. The local brewer Ridley's, which went bust about 20 years ago, has been restarted by a family member as 'Bishop Nick' - Bishop Nicolas Ridley being part of the family tree - hence beers called things like 'Heresy' and '1555'. And I do like IPA. I had a second dream where Cameron/Remain won the EU referendum and we ended up with Prime Minister Osborne, but that one wasn't as much fun. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,620
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 14, 2022 21:04:41 GMT
one that ambitious centrist politicians with talent attach themselves to in order to maximise their chances of being elected. An excellent description of the current state of the SNP in Scotland, much to the despair of the more fundamentalist supporters of independence. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Oct 14, 2022 21:04:57 GMT
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Post by matt126 on Oct 14, 2022 21:06:07 GMT
Regarding PR, yes you need to Win FTP election first. But if the polls are right them Labour end up with comfortable majority. In that scenario then if we are going to get reform this will be the best time. it will be a big mandate for constitutional reform , and will not look opportunistic. If the Tories are hammered in the election then they might look to electoral reform as well as a way to get foothold back. Others on the right like Reform Uk might be supportive too.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Oct 14, 2022 21:11:27 GMT
Even the lady who who bred our bearded collie has posted a plea for a general election on her FB page. One of the most unpolitical people I know. What do the bearded collies think Andy? I can't speak for her whole housefull of beardies (15 the last time we visited her in Anglesey), but our Miss Pippin is singularly unimpressed, though whoever offered her a biscuit she'd promise to vote for. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 21:13:03 GMT
Another excellent Marina Hyde article to enjoy in the Guardian. Here’s one of many bits I particularly liked (this about Kwarteng):
“ Ironically, he departs the stage just as his mini-budget is finally becoming worthy of its descriptor. At this rate of U-turn, it will be so mini that the only thing left in it will be some opening remarks.”
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Oct 14, 2022 21:13:34 GMT
one that ambitious centrist politicians with talent attach themselves to in order to maximise their chances of being elected. An excellent description of the current state of the SNP in Scotland, much to the despair of the more fundamentalist supporters of independence. |
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Post by alec on Oct 14, 2022 21:13:44 GMT
Mark Carney on Brexit, quoted in the FT:
“Put it this way, in 2016 the British economy was 90 per cent the size of Germany’s. Now it is less than 70 per cent. And that calculation was made before today.”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 21:15:43 GMT
What do the bearded collies think Andy? I can't speak for her whole housefull of beardies (15 the last time we visited her in Anglesey), but our Miss Pippin is singularly unimpressed, though whoever offered her a biscuit she'd promise to vote for. Think I may have said this before (said most things before, saves on new thoughts) but I would be both surprised and disappointed if Truss likes dogs - or vice versa. |
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Post by jayblanc on Oct 14, 2022 21:17:46 GMT
Strong words coming out of Westminster tonight.
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 21:18:40 GMT
The same Starlink that is destroying professional ground-based astronomy because of the satellites reflecting the sunlight in the hours after dark and before dawn. When he started putting them into orbit he did nothing to reduce the reflections until the scientists started complaining. Even now they are a serious problem. The picture on the article shows just how bad it is. Musk is plain irresponsible. spacenews.com/astronomers-renew-concerns-about-starlink-satellite-brightness/ Both points are valid. Musk has tried his best to help. Musk also often doesn't think things through before he acts. 10 years ago it would have been science fiction to think that a single individual would be able to deploy a fleet of satellites to help in a war. Amazing! |
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Post by thylacine on Oct 14, 2022 21:22:46 GMT
Strong words coming out of Westminster tonight. Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 21:24:59 GMT
I agree; there isn't going to be an early GE. Liz will most likely fall pretty soon but assuming a replacement will be annointed, who of the more experienced Tory MPs with top level Cabinet experience would really want the job at this time? It's a poisoned chalice. I'm sure there will be some who would jump at the chance of being PM. After all, it's the top job in the country (even if not the best paid) and PMs are about the only politicians remembered in history. I'm sure most of us could name at least half a dozen 19th century PMs off the top of our heads, but how many who never made it? Joe Chamberlain perhaps? Not many. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,620
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 14, 2022 21:25:39 GMT
Strong words coming out of Westminster tonight. Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. Spicer is a comedian and satirist. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 21:27:25 GMT
It's the politics of it that I'm addressing not the likelihood of an imminent election. I agree that is very unlikely but it shouldn't stop Labour repeatedly calling for one. Voters appear to be on their side according to the polling. But not according to the latest local election results. |
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Post by thylacine on Oct 14, 2022 21:32:38 GMT
Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. Spicer is a comedian and satirist. It did seem a bit strong 😂 |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 21:34:09 GMT
Hunt and Javid were the only two serious candidates in the race if the Tory Party was any longer a serious political party. Which I don't think they are. They gave the country Truss. I rest my case. I think there's a bit of wishful thinking there. There are a lot of voters who are mildly RoC. Where are they going to go? One possibility is that Starmer becomes Blair Mk 2 and hoovers them up. Otherwise it's the Tories or Reform UK (who I might stand for in the next GE). If Starmer is forced to do more than say "I'm not Liz Truss" and eschews Blairism then the voters might give him one term, but not much more. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 21:45:27 GMT
Spicer is a comedian and satirist. It did seem a bit strong 😂 I didn’t think so. |
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Post by RAF on Oct 14, 2022 21:52:20 GMT
Strong words coming out of Westminster tonight. Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. "MPs are so angry now, their analogies are not making any sense." |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 21:53:07 GMT
Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. It had me fooled for a while! 😄 |
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Post by RAF on Oct 14, 2022 21:56:11 GMT
Blimey, I'm almost feeling sorry for her. It had me fooled for a while! 😄 The earlier ones sounded remarkably similar to the ones relayed by lobby correspondents. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Oct 14, 2022 22:06:24 GMT
Hunt and Javid were the only two serious candidates in the race if the Tory Party was any longer a serious political party. Which I don't think they are. They gave the country Truss. I rest my case. I think there's a bit of wishful thinking there. There are a lot of voters who are mildly RoC. Where are they going to go? One possibility is that Starmer becomes Blair Mk 2 and hoovers them up. Otherwise it's the Tories or Reform UK (who I might stand for in the next GE). If Starmer is forced to do more than say "I'm not Liz Truss" and eschews Blairism then the voters might give him one term, but not much more. Must be great knowing what 'the voters' in this country want. How come you're not the new Lynton Crosby? Voters appear to be moving to the left economically with alacrity and are I suspect more willing than ever to give imaginative state directed ideas a hearing. Apparently even Tory voters approve of various nationalisations these days. I suspect you may be thinking of the voters of 25 plus years ago. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Oct 14, 2022 22:11:52 GMT
It's the politics of it that I'm addressing not the likelihood of an imminent election. I agree that is very unlikely but it shouldn't stop Labour repeatedly calling for one. Voters appear to be on their side according to the polling. But not according to the latest local election results. Yes all the polls are wrong and some local by-elections (the meaninglessness of which has been often discussed here before) are shining a light on the true picture... You are aware of the very particular background to the Leicester result? |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 22:20:13 GMT
I think there's a bit of wishful thinking there. There are a lot of voters who are mildly RoC. Where are they going to go? One possibility is that Starmer becomes Blair Mk 2 and hoovers them up. Otherwise it's the Tories or Reform UK (who I might stand for in the next GE). If Starmer is forced to do more than say "I'm not Liz Truss" and eschews Blairism then the voters might give him one term, but not much more. Must be great knowing what 'the voters' in this country want. How come you're not the new Lynton Crosby? Voters appear to be moving to the left economically with alacrity and are I suspect more willing than ever to give imaginative state directed ideas a hearing. Apparently even Tory voters approve of various nationalisations these days. I suspect you may be thinking of the voters of 25 plus years ago. I don't think I do any more prognosticating than most others on this site. We'll see what happens. Perhaps I should have added (IMO) in the last post, though I'd have thought that was obvious. |
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Post by lens on Oct 14, 2022 22:20:21 GMT
It's curious how people on the right are always ready to leap to the defence of v rich people. ....... So Musk has been v clever about making electric cars & given a 100th of 1% of his wealth to Ukraine. Jolly good. These are achievments we can all respect. But why not praise ordinary people who have been far more generous than someone who has emptied his pockets to make donations. Well, firstly I'd describe myself overall as a bit left of centre, and I know several very left leaning people who (overall!) tend to be pro-Musk - largely from environmentalist reasonings. But regardless, it's not a case of "always ready to leap to the defence of v rich people" - I'll defend some people who happen to be rich (up to a point), but most certainly not others! Musk? I've already said "controversial". I'll go further if you like and agree that I certainly don't agree with everything he says or does. But to say that "he is doing the Kremlin's dirty work for them", by asking the US government to now pay for Starlink funding, after paying huge sums himself over the last six months, just seems grossly unfair. It's not just the money. As a business man it would have been hardly surprising if he had just not got involved - if you are trying to set up a huge global internet business, wouldn't it be better to try to steer clear of upsetting Russia? And again, it's not just the money - with Starlink he was uniquely positioned to supply a form of aid that is unique. There are a lot of very rich people who have not just given no aid at all to Ukraine, but may have tacitly helped Russia in a business sense, especially people involved in energy industries. Wouldn't it be better to call such of those out as "doing the Kremlin's dirty work" ahead of Musk? I assure you I won't be "always ready to leap to their defence". |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 22:24:27 GMT
But not according to the latest local election results. Yes all the polls are wrong and some local by-elections (the meaninglessness of which has been often discussed here before) are shining a light on the true picture... You are aware of the very particular background to the Leicester result? I am, but the Labour vote fell in 3 of the 4 seats that they contested yesterday. That just struck me as odd when they are at least 20% ahead in the national polls. Next week we have 3 Con, 1 Lab and 1 LibDem defences. It will be interesting to see how they turn out. |
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Post by eor on Oct 14, 2022 22:31:53 GMT
However, Labour have to win a FPTP election first, and those who win FPTP are often quite unwilling to consider giving up or sharing that absolute power via PR! And winning well enough under FPTP to enable such a change to be made despite the cynical naysayers in one's own camp... you're probably in for a decade or more, and there are going to be a hundred more pressing things to tackle with this extraordinary opportunity. |
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Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Oct 14, 2022 22:32:57 GMT
It's the politics of it that I'm addressing not the likelihood of an imminent election. I agree that is very unlikely but it shouldn't stop Labour repeatedly calling for one. Voters appear to be on their side according to the polling. But not according to the latest local election results. You can cling to that if you want to.  |
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Post by mercian on Oct 14, 2022 22:43:45 GMT
DaveI think it seems very likely that Labour will win the next GE, but just intrigued that actual elections, however local and irrelevant don't show a massive move to Labour. Surely a rising tide raises all boats? Is it possible that those replying to VI intention questions are just saying Labour because they are fed up with this lot and Labour are the obvious alternative (in UK elections to forestall oldnat 🙂). The only real elections we're having at present are local by-elections so I like to keep an eye on them. Possibly Labour will smash them all next week. Perhaps not.
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