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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 25, 2022 16:45:15 GMT
No it isn't. Unlike a referendum where the question is clear and simple, people vote for parties in General Elections for all sorts of reasons. Once Harold Wilson and the Labour Government decided in 1975 that there should be a referendum to decide if the UK should stay in the Common Market, that established the precedent in law that this decision should only be decided by a referendum not by a General Election. At that time, the Labour Party could (assuming it was in their General Election manifesto) have brought the UK out of the Common Market without a referendum, but they decided (wisely, in my view) that it was such an important decision that it needed to be decided by the people in a referendum. This is why I was so opposed to Jo Swinson saying that if the Liberal Democrats won a majority in the 2019 General Election they would reverse Brexit without another referendum (not because I supported Brexit, which I have never done, but because I regarded it as unconstitutional). Allow party leaders this much power and you open the door to all the worst features of populism. When you look at Brexit, it is clear that all parties were split over it as Lord Ashcroft's polling at the time showed: lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/Tories Remain 42%: Leave 58% Labour 63%: 37% Lib Dems 70%: 30% Greens 75%: 25% (he didn't distinguish between E&W Greens and Scottish Greens even though they are separate parties) SNP 64%: 36% Even 4% of UKIP voters voted for Remain. Labour did fight the 1983 election under Michael Foot with a commitment to withdraw from the EEC without any referendum being proposed. I also remember it being said about him: "What's the opposite of nepotism? Being Paul Foot's uncle." When you ignore the rule of Law; democracy is not much protection against the tyranny of the majority, as I intimated above. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2022 17:21:42 GMT
hireton If you go down the route that a vote for the snp is a defacto vote for leaving the union presumably you would be happy for their next election campaign to prominently feature a statement " Don't vote for us unless you want secession" Otherwise regarding any victory while it might mandate a referendum doesn't actually indicate how it would likely turn out. I presume secessionist supporters wouldn't want another referendum simply to lose it, again.
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Nov 25, 2022 17:27:09 GMT
Sir Keir speaks:
"he would also not pursue a Swiss-style* relationship with Brussels"
"he has no intention of calling a second Scottish independence referendum during the next Parliament, as he ruled out a pact with the SNP"OK, 'words are wind' but the reason I like Sir Keir is coz he is 'continuity Rishi' (but 'Greener' and without the suicidal CON factions who are stopping loads of stuff that needs to be done, getting done) news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmer-vows-to-cut-taxes-for-working-people-and-rules-out-swiss-style-eu-deal-12755232* The problem is the interpretation of 'Swiss-style'. The headbangers think that will mean FOM, alignment and £billions of payments to Brussels (and hence why Rishi and Sir Keir have said 'non' to that). However, it is (IMO) more a case of lots of mini/side deals to tie off some of the minor loose ends that resulted from Frosty changing May-Robbins 'backstop' to a 'frontstop'. I appreciate using other 'country names' gets some folks over-excited and hence why, upon reflection, it is better to call it 'UK++' where the '+' components are pretty minor but would be of mutual benefit (eg NIP where Brussels is quite possibly embarrassed that we're just implementing it how we choose to and they are seen to be toothless on doing anything about that - so agree 'MRA+E' on agri-food and some other 'goods' sectors for UK-EU and the NIP issue is solved) |
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Post by mercian on Nov 25, 2022 17:27:15 GMT
Mouldgate
First, just to repeat that it is a tragedy that the little boy died just in case I'm accused of being heartless or something.
Ok, I've read the coroner's findings. It seems that the landlord was negligent, and should have undertaken remedial work. Nevertheless, the father reported the problem in 2017. Surely in that time the family could have taken steps to fix the problem themselves? I note that they 'asked to be rehoused'? Why couldn't they just rehouse themselves? I'm no handyman but I fixed mould in our house by finding a leak outside where an old downpipe had been removed, sticking some tar in it and then running a dehumidifier for a bit.
It's the attitude that someone else has to sort your problems out that I find difficult to understand. People need to stand on their own two feet and take some responsibility for their own lives.
To bring this back to politics I think this is one of the main differences between left and right in politics (I don't consider the current Conservative party right-wing).
I don't like getting into lengthy debates so though I expect a lot more attacks I'm unlikely to reply again on this subject.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Nov 25, 2022 17:48:41 GMT
Why should someone setting out the legal position against something mean they support it. I could try and explain the reasons why the USA Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade. Doesn't mean I agree with them. But crucially pjw1961 (and you it seems) don't say it is wrong or propose that anything should change. Instead the answer from pjw1961 is that Scotland has to lump it until England's elected representatives agree to respect Scottish democracy. Hireton This is the post I was replying to when I said campaigning for a second Scottish referendum was not a priority for me. |
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steve
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Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2022 17:50:13 GMT
mercian If you read my post on this they did attempt remedial work, much of what you suggested is totally impractical in a flat and sticking tar on the exterior walls would almost certainly breach tenancy conditions. As you don't like " lengthy debates" I'll keep it brief. Stop being a dick.
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Post by alec on Nov 25, 2022 17:51:45 GMT
"UK secures £1.84 billion investment for ESA programmes with support for Earth Observation sector"
"Woohoo!! (Is there a catch though? OMG, what if there’s a catch??)"
"I can't see any catch. UK has been deemed the best place for a chunk of ESA* programmes - simples."
Er, it might be worth reading the press release?
The 'catch' is that when you get past the title, which says "UK secures £1.84bn investment...." you find out that it says "UK government commits £1.84 billion for important space programmes at this year’s European Space Agency Council of Ministers meeting, held in Paris..."
So the "secures investment" bit is the UK government "securing" spending it's own money. Quite an odd phraseology, really.
Nowhere in the press release does it provide any details of how much of the "investment" will be spent in the UK.
But hey - it's Friday, so lets get excited by government press releases!
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Post by laszlo4new on Nov 25, 2022 17:58:28 GMT
My comment wasn't about the war - just the complexities. In Ukraine it is illegal to use any other language than Ukrainian in public offices (it was enacted in 2018), and on TV. Until then in localities Russian, Polish, Hungarian and Yiddish were allowed (the Roma was not). And of course, the Hungarian government plays the card - in the beginning of the war it demanded self-governance (not independence) for Carpathian Ukraine (Hungarian population is quite big there), and this week the Hungarian ambassador was called in by the Ukrainian Foreign Office (and also the Hungarian ambassador by the Romanian Foreign Office) because Orbán turned up to.watch a match wearing a Great Hungary (prior to (1918) scarf. I suspect the population of Kharkiv, who amongst each other will use whichever language they like, do not much care as they have bigger problems. The fine is also a token, even in wartime, showing that this is clearly not really taken seriously. I imagine it only concerns public speeches by public officials. Within the confines of their offices they'll use whatever language is most comfortable for them. Even in Wales I understand a knowledge of Welsh is required for many public sector roles. I understand there is a huge bottom up push going on driven by people at all levels of society to use Ukrainian more than Russian in those areas where Russian was more prevalent. Orban really is a piece of work. Imagine if a German chancellor walked about wearing a scarf with a map of the Kaiserreich or even the Versailles treaty borders? Well, the Manx died out long time ago - maybe BBC still has the recording of the two people who told Manx stories (and that was the only language they could apeak). But history matters, and this case, the short time. There is a Soviet propaganda film (but a very good one) called Circus (a white women has a child from a black man, and she is persecuted for this in the US, and escapes to the Soviet Union) from the 1930s. In that a lullaby is sang to the black child in many of the languages of the Soviet Union (it is towards the end of the film). And as I said, it started from complexities. And as you mentioned Germany. Germany will declare the famine of 1931-32 a genocide (Ukraine has declared as such, but they also excused the Ukrainian nazis). Of course it wasn't genocide, and the fatality numbers are all fabricated (4 million if you calculate all the successors of the people who died in the famine - it is only in footnotes in textbooks, so, roughly 600,000 died), and of course then one has to forget about the death of famine in South Russian, or the death of famine in 1921 in Ukraine (then Ukraine wasn't part of the Soviet Union. It is really debased from the German social democrats. |
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 18:01:02 GMT
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Post by ladyvalerie on Nov 25, 2022 18:01:09 GMT
As a speaker of German I find Switzerland a weird place to be (as does my brother in law's wife, who is from Hamburg. They live in Zurich at the moment). Everything in writing all around you is in standard German yet the language people are using is impenetrable. Swiss German is basically not German and to my mind should be considered a language in it's own right. You can see this on the few occasions it is written down. I understand it even differs from canton to canton to an extent that can make comprehension difficult. They do however all understand and speak standard German and will use this if you address them in it but frankly it seems to make as much sense there to use English.. I used to go and regularly visit a friend residing in St Gallen. He had a lovely little apartment in the town centre. The place was spotless and so civilised. He had to follow a timetable which required him to sweep outside his apartment corridor on certain days of the week and he was only allowed to use the laundry on proscribed days. I remember going to a gig with him; loads of casually dressed young people but all their jeans were nicely pressed and the grafitti in the spotless toilets looked like it had been done professionally. I read your post quickly and thought it said your friend had to SLEEP outside his apartment on certain days of the week 🥺 |
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 18:03:04 GMT
Not sure if we have had People Polling:
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 18:04:58 GMT
Thread front Ipsos on their latest polling:
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Post by ladyvalerie on Nov 25, 2022 18:13:06 GMT
A screening for Downs Syndrome can be carried out within 10 -14 weeks of a pregnancy. Is this discriminatory? Should such screening be banned? |
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 18:18:23 GMT
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 18:21:33 GMT
hireton If you go down the route that a vote for the snp is a defacto vote for leaving the union presumably you would be happy for their next election campaign to prominently feature a statement " Don't vote for us unless you want secession" Otherwise regarding any victory while it might mandate a referendum doesn't actually indicate how it would likely turn out. I presume secessionist supporters wouldn't want another referendum simply to lose it, again. That is exactly the plan, to use the next UK General Election as a plebiscite election on independence. |
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steve
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Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2022 18:39:47 GMT
There were some elections last night.
Britain Elects
@britainelects
·
10h
Sutton (Bassetlaw) council by-election result:
LAB: 56.1% (+35.8)
CON: 41.7% (-21.9)
LDEM: 2.2% (-13.9)
Votes cast: 537
Labour GAIN from Conservative.( Tactical voting?)
Last night's Brighstone, Calbourne and Shalfleet (Isle of Wight) council by-election result:
LDEM: 53.4% (+23.5)
CON: 24.3% (-19.3)
GRN: 15.5% (-11.0)
VEC: 3.7% (+3.7)
LAB: 3.1% (+3.1)
Votes cast: 985
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
Britain Elects
@britainelects
·
10h
Last night's Rixton and Woolston (Warrington) council by-election result:
CON: 42.9% (+2.7)
LAB: 42.7% (+5.5)
LDEM: 14.5% (+5.0)
Votes cast: 1,512
No Ind (-13.2) as prev.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,614
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 25, 2022 18:40:02 GMT
So crofty's former tag line about her vacating the seat at the next election proves true. However, I'm don't think his current one about bringing back Truss will do the same. |
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domjg
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Posts: 5,149
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Post by domjg on Nov 25, 2022 18:44:33 GMT
I suspect the population of Kharkiv, who amongst each other will use whichever language they like, do not much care as they have bigger problems. The fine is also a token, even in wartime, showing that this is clearly not really taken seriously. I imagine it only concerns public speeches by public officials. Within the confines of their offices they'll use whatever language is most comfortable for them. Even in Wales I understand a knowledge of Welsh is required for many public sector roles. I understand there is a huge bottom up push going on driven by people at all levels of society to use Ukrainian more than Russian in those areas where Russian was more prevalent. Orban really is a piece of work. Imagine if a German chancellor walked about wearing a scarf with a map of the Kaiserreich or even the Versailles treaty borders? Well, the Manx died out long time ago - maybe BBC still has the recording of the two people who told Manx stories (and that was the only language they could apeak). But history matters, and this case, the short time. There is a Soviet propaganda film (but a very good one) called Circus (a white women has a child from a black man, and she is persecuted for this in the US, and escapes to the Soviet Union) from the 1930s. In that a lullaby is sang to the black child in many of the languages of the Soviet Union (it is towards the end of the film). And as I said, it started from complexities. And as you mentioned Germany. Germany will declare the famine of 1931-32 a genocide (Ukraine has declared as such, but they also excused the Ukrainian nazis). Of course it wasn't genocide, and the fatality numbers are all fabricated (4 million if you calculate all the successors of the people who died in the famine - it is only in footnotes in textbooks, so, roughly 600,000 died), and of course then one has to forget about the death of famine in South Russian, or the death of famine in 1921 in Ukraine (then Ukraine wasn't part of the Soviet Union. It is really debased from the German social democrats. Oh dear.. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,614
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 25, 2022 18:46:12 GMT
There were some elections last night. Britain Elects @britainelects · 10h Sutton (Bassetlaw) council by-election result: LAB: 56.1% (+35.8) CON: 41.7% (-21.9) LDEM: 2.2% (-13.9) Votes cast: 537 Labour GAIN from Conservative.( Tactical voting?) Last night's Brighstone, Calbourne and Shalfleet (Isle of Wight) council by-election result: LDEM: 53.4% (+23.5) CON: 24.3% (-19.3) GRN: 15.5% (-11.0) VEC: 3.7% (+3.7) LAB: 3.1% (+3.1) Votes cast: 985 Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative. Britain Elects @britainelects · 10h Last night's Rixton and Woolston (Warrington) council by-election result: CON: 42.9% (+2.7) LAB: 42.7% (+5.5) LDEM: 14.5% (+5.0) Votes cast: 1,512 No Ind (-13.2) as prev. Conservative majority in the Warrington one was 3 votes! For completeness there was also a Labour hold in Sefton. |
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Post by ladyvalerie on Nov 25, 2022 19:30:09 GMT
Go Beth 😀
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Danny
Member
Posts: 10,549
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Post by Danny on Nov 25, 2022 20:12:04 GMT
I doubt it's the retailer that sold its fault, more likely the decorator who applied it either didn't prepare the wall properly or used the wrong adhesive. Surely not damp or mould in Downing street which caused it to peel off? Dodgy landlord? |
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Post by davwel on Nov 25, 2022 20:25:33 GMT
Oh dear - problems on the field and in the commentary team
'Mount drifting to left-back to get ball'
England 0-0 USA
Rob Green
Former England goalkeeper on BBC Radio 5 Live
Mason Mount has been in and out of the game. He is drifting into the left-back position behind Mason Mount at times and that is when you know your creative players are struggling to get into the game.
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Danny
Member
Posts: 10,549
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Post by Danny on Nov 25, 2022 20:36:32 GMT
Funny how both the brexit and scottish independence referenda results were determined by politicians lying. Well that might quite often be the case Danny!! (And quite often both sides tell some porkies) But dont you think this is precisely why political parties are so universally despised, and also why they can no longer command an actual majority despite FPP forcing voters to choose between just two parties? Polling might ask who people intend to vote for but its deeply mistaken to say those voters support the party they choose. Its like being asked whether you want to be treated by Dr frankenstein or Dr Jekyl. |
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Post by hireton on Nov 25, 2022 20:38:04 GMT
Others may already know this but the continuity UKPR site has a seat prediction section. I can't seem to find an explanation of the methodology but it's entertaining to look uo your own constituency if nothing else: pollingreport.uk/seats |
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steve
Member
Posts: 12,748
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2022 20:57:32 GMT
England maintain their 100% record of never beating the USA in a world cup.
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Post by richardstamper on Nov 25, 2022 21:29:30 GMT
"UK secures £1.84 billion investment for ESA programmes with support for Earth Observation sector" "Woohoo!! (Is there a catch though? OMG, what if there’s a catch??)" "I can't see any catch. UK has been deemed the best place for a chunk of ESA* programmes - simples." Er, it might be worth reading the press release? The 'catch' is that when you get past the title, which says "UK secures £1.84bn investment...." you find out that it says "UK government commits £1.84 billion for important space programmes at this year’s European Space Agency Council of Ministers meeting, held in Paris..." So the "secures investment" bit is the UK government "securing" spending it's own money. Quite an odd phraseology, really. Nowhere in the press release does it provide any details of how much of the "investment" will be spent in the UK. But hey - it's Friday, so lets get excited by government press releases! ESA has elaborate "geo-return" rules for its programmes so although it's complicated it is very likely that the £1.84bn will get spent in the UK. For the optional programmes the geo-return rules can make it difficult assembling a suitable consortium to deliver, because they need to find packages of work of the right values that can be sourced in the various countries that have contributed. |
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neilj
Member
Posts: 6,552
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Post by neilj on Nov 25, 2022 21:32:15 GMT
England maintain their 100% record of never beating the USA in a world cup. Yes but unless Wales beat them by 4 goals or more they have qualified to the next round |
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Post by mercian on Nov 25, 2022 21:36:40 GMT
"The massive disappointment was to discover that [the £840-a-roll gold wallpaper] had started to peel off of its own accord... Hells bells. I'd have gone back to the store and demanded a refund under the Sale of Goods Act, or Trades Descriptions Act, or both. Just goes to show there are cowboys at all levels of society. And suckers. |
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Post by mercian on Nov 25, 2022 21:44:43 GMT
By the 1920s Ireland was already almost exclusively English speaking. Didn't dampen the distinct Irish culture and passion for self government. Also Switzerland has no less than three official languages: French, German, and Italian. Some Swiss speak a fourth, Romansh. I was told a long time ago, that if two German-speaking Swiss were conversing and a French-speaking Swiss joined them, they would immediately switch to French out of respect for the newcomer. That's different to my experience in Wales. Several Welshmen were conversing in English in a pub when I walked in and they immediately switched to what I assume was Welsh (it sounded like gibberish interspersed with regular throat-clearing). |
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Nov 25, 2022 21:51:59 GMT
England maintain their 100% record of never beating the USA in a world cup.
On the pattern of games so far, I suspect that my bookshelves will be immaculate by the end of the group stage. |
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