Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 12:04:40 GMT
lululemon @organised religions are biased towards maintaining the status quo: men in charge (priests, mullahs etc.), women relegated, children propagandised, social mores unchanged and unchanging and anything and anyone who wants progress (gay people, sexually independent women, more relaxed social mores etc. ) are demonised and ostracised."
I think you are in danger of hyperbole there.
Some "organised religions" would reasonably dispute that accusation these days. You probably need to say which religions you refer to.
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Post by barbara on Nov 24, 2021 12:29:12 GMT
I think you are in danger of hyperbole there. Some "organised religions" would reasonably dispute that accusation these days. You probably need to say which religions you refer to. Hi Colin, Judaism, Christianity in all its forms ( particularly Catholicism) and Islam all fit my description. Can you give me example s of religions that don't do this or weren't set up to do this? It's a genuine question. I can't think of any but I accept I don't have a wide knowledge of minor religions. |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 24, 2021 12:30:20 GMT
For a bit of light relief, here's a clip of Nadine Dorries demonstrating how totally on top of her brief she is.
Her reaction when it's pointed out to her that C4 is not publicly funded, as she'd just claimed, is, to quote:
"So... although it's ... yeah ... and ... that ..."
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 24, 2021 12:33:39 GMT
Having just watched that clip again, I've realised who she must be modelling her delivery on.
David Brent.
Take a look and see if you can hear what I'm hearing.
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Post by barbara on Nov 24, 2021 12:37:34 GMT
Somerjohn,
Brilliant!
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Post by wb61 on Nov 24, 2021 12:46:24 GMT
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Nov 24, 2021 12:55:27 GMT
@ steamdrivenandy
If you've not read it already, Pratchett's 'Small Gods' provides a great commentary on religions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Gods
Funnily enough, it was the first of his books that I read. Praise be to Om = and smite all non-believers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 13:03:34 GMT
Some polling from R&W on what is an important issue for a lot of CON VI being badly handled by CON HMG (see posts from a few days ago or YG's most important tracker)
and for 'blame vectors' then:
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Post by wb61 on Nov 24, 2021 13:09:45 GMT
Terry Pratchett's writings make him the modern day Swift (as I may have written before, perhaps ad nauseum)
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Nov 24, 2021 13:17:03 GMT
@ steamdrivenandy If you've not read it already, Pratchett's 'Small Gods' provides a great commentary on religions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Gods Funnily enough, it was the first of his books that I read. Praise be to Om = and smite all non-believers. I like this quote - “His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink.” Terry Pratchett, Small Gods |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Nov 24, 2021 13:19:50 GMT
Some polling from R&W on what is an important issue for a lot of CON VI being badly handled by CON HMG (see posts from a few days ago or YG's most important tracker) and for 'blame vectors' then: @ TW hi - after the : was there supposed to be some data, if so i cant see anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 13:26:13 GMT
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Post by jayblanc on Nov 24, 2021 13:28:42 GMT
redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/Conservative 37% (+1) Labour 37% (–) Liberal Democrat 9% (-1) Green 6% (+1) Scottish National Party 4% (–) Reform UK 4% (–) Plaid Cymru 0% (-1) Other 2% (–) (Delta from 14 November Redfield and Wilton poll.) Redfield and Wilton are relatively new political pollsters, but there doesn't appear to be any significant issues with their published methodology, and their headline figures seem within range of the mean. This polling was conducted on a Sunday, which may well cause some variance compared to weekday polls. People tend to pay most attention to political news during working weekdays, peaking on Wednesday or Thursday. Don't ask why, this is just an observed pattern of reader engagement on political sites. This obviously came before the PM's CBI Conference speech, so no effect can be possible from there.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Nov 24, 2021 13:31:51 GMT
Applying logic to the immigrant/refugee issue you'd have to say that the governments who don't stop the people getting into Europe are to blame. I guess that you could, just about, blame the existence of the open borders inside the EU for allowing such people to move freely, though surely it's EU citizens only who have cross border freedom, not non-EU citizens. Or is there no distinction once you're inside?
Then you have to think, if the situation was reversed, would the UK put themselves out to keep such folk in the country, or would we tacitly watch them leave and not be too concerned?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 13:32:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 13:42:17 GMT
I think you are in danger of hyperbole there. Some "organised religions" would reasonably dispute that accusation these days. You probably need to say which religions you refer to. Hi Colin, Judaism, Christianity in all its forms ( particularly Catholicism) and Islam all fit my description. Can you give me example s of religions that don't do this or weren't set up to do this? It's a genuine question. I can't think of any but I accept I don't have a wide knowledge of minor religions. You have moved the goal posts somewhat. I was responding to your comment about "Organised Religions". Now you present me with three major Faith Groups. I will come back to them. The Anglican Church would certainly claim that women are not excluded from its priesthood. A claim I would support since a female member of my family is a Parish Priest . Clergywomen have been part of Methodism since John Wesley licensed Sarah Crosby to preach in 1761. And I feel sure that the current Archbishop of Canterbury would dispute your claim that in his Church "children are propagandised, social mores unchanged and unchanging and anything and anyone who wants progress (gay people, sexually independent women, more relaxed social mores etc. ) are demonised and ostracised." Catholicism has clearly got work to do on the female emancipation front, and some of the children in its care might have swapped a bit of "propagandising" for the treatment they actually received. I know nothing of organised Judaism but a quick Google indicates women Rabbis have been a fact since the 19th C The question as to whether Islam is an "organised religion" is a very interesting ( and apposite) one. If it is, you will search in vain for its ordaining body and hierarchy:- www.almasjid.com/content/organizational_structure_islamWe all know what the roll of women at a mosque is. And we know what attitudes to women are under some groups of Islamic clerics. I don't know anything of attitudes to children in Islam. Coming back to the three Faiths you mentioned. They are 4000, 2000 and 1500 years old respectively. They were born at a time when human society was patriarchal and the role of women was still defined by the social mores established in/by settled communities:- www.newscientist.com/article/mg23831740-400-the-origins-of-sexism-how-men-came-to-rule-12000-years-ago/So I agree with you that patriarchy is built in at the origin of Faiths. But their modern organised expression has moved some of them forward with more modern attitudes to the role of women. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Nov 24, 2021 13:56:34 GMT
@ TW - Thanks - it looks like a browser issue, can see it on google but not edge.
On the lululemon moniker, I am aware of those accusation but from what I can see there is very little tangible/firm evidence to support the assertion of the name's origin and he denies ever making such comments. Innocent until proven guilty. Also given that it's currently what I virtually exclusively wear atm wfh I would have to completely change my wardrobe. The current management have made clear their view on anti-Asian racism, also I am married to an Asian, and they don't have an issue with the name.
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Post by jayblanc on Nov 24, 2021 14:02:50 GMT
A quite note on how I chose the thread title, which is also relevant to how 'Headline Figures' get reported. There's a limited number of characters in the thread title before it gets cropped, so even after editing down to conscise abbreviations there's not enough space to put everything. So a conscious choice has to be made as to what gets the most attention as the Headline figures.
The rational I used was:
1) Date the poll was conducted has to be clear and unambiguous
2) Who conducted the poll is as important as the results
3) The major parties must appear
4) Minor parties that I judge to have significance to an election must appear.
That last one is the big judgement call. And I made the same choice as Mark did in the previous thread. Lib Dems and Greens are more important numbers to watch at the moment, more in the sense of how more and less significant they may be becoming to the election. There is more significant information to be identified from knowing if the Lib Dems are recovering, and if the Greens are getting near to a breakthrough point of getting more than one seat. The SNP are a very significant party, but their dominance of Scottish seats is already priced into our knowledge of how the election will work out, and a UK/GB wide figure for the SNP does not provide anything meaningful towards that. Similarly Plaid Cymru's less than measurable pollign in GB/UK wide samples, is not meaningful to how many seats they will get. I then discount Reform UK as being essentially irrelevant to the political landscape in any way that polling can meaningfully show, but that may well be my own personal bias showing. And that potential for bias in how the headline result is reported should always be considered.
Additionally, those of you who remember me will remember that I would much much prefer if the UK Headline result reporting included 'Unknowns', as it makes a huge difference as to what the polling figure actually means. As R&W note - " After weighting by likelihood to vote, 13% of the sample say they do not know how they would vote, including 11% of those who voted Conservative in December 2019 and 7% of those who voted Labour." In a tight race, this is a significant margin of undecided voters. But that's not how we do things here, so it's hard to report that in a way that would be consistent across all polling firms.
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Post by jimjam on Nov 24, 2021 14:27:58 GMT
I wonder if this commissioning of polling around migrants is an attempt to elevate the issue.
Trev - just a reminder that the R&W best PM question has that at the moment preface and on other wordings for best PM Starmer and Johnson have been close recently, possibly Starmer with a small lead.
Apologies but I can't recall who posted upthread that on VI and best PM, Lab are competitive but on best for the economy (whatever the wording) they are well behind at present.
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 24, 2021 15:06:28 GMT
.... So I agree with you that patriarchy is built in at the origin of Faiths. But their modern organised expression has moved some of them forward with more modern attitudes to the role of women. Colin, Agreed. Also one should not assume that atheists are somehow more progressive than people of faith. I always like to point people at Tim O'Neill's blog historyforatheists.com/ where he skewers numerous New Atheists for their misrepresentation of historical events. Tim is an atheist himself, but feels strongly about anyone, religious or non-religious, misrepresenting history for their own ends. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 24, 2021 15:10:04 GMT
Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 38% (-2)
CON: 36% (+2)
LDEM: 10% (-)
GRN: 5% (-)
via
@savantacomres
, 19 - 21 Nov
Chgs. w/ 12 Nov
Worth noting poll conducted before Peppa Pig gate
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 15:31:07 GMT
I wonder if this commissioning of polling around migrants is an attempt to elevate the issue. Trev - just a reminder that the R&W best PM question has that at the moment preface and on other wordings for best PM Starmer and Johnson have been close recently, possibly Starmer with a small lead. Apologies but I can't recall who posted upthread that on VI and best PM, Lab are competitive but on best for the economy (whatever the wording) they are well behind at present. Firstly good to see you on UKPR2. On commissioning of polling then do you know who is doing the commissioning? It appears to me to be 'in house' from YG and R&W and IMO due to it being a topical issue but I'm not 100% sure of that. I'd rather not start a 'theory' going without some evidence but for sure Boris+Patel are under a lot of pressure to fix the problem. I know TOH and yourself used to mention the different 'PM' wording that R&W use and good to have a reminder. Wiki link covers the different wording used by different companies (YG did show a 2% lead for Starmer in their 10-11Nov'21 poll and several pollsters had Starmer with a lead Sep'20-Jan'21). Deltapoll (bit lower down) also ask best team (PM+CoE) and some companies ask CON or LAB for HMG. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Preferred_Prime_Minister_polling |
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 24, 2021 16:01:30 GMT
Dominic Raab said he used to watch Peppa pig with his parents in an attempt to deflect from Spaffer's apparent lapse into la la land.
Peppa pig first aired in 2004 when Mr Raab would have been 30!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 16:08:56 GMT
New main polling thread created by JAYBLANC, although did we need one yet? Perhaps as host and the only person with admin access then MARK will need to 'lock' the current main thread when a new one starts to avoid split comments and make the call when: The thread is dead, long live the (new) threadAlso thanks to those using the 'Issue Specific' threads. Be nice to see a few (but not too many) more of those and note the phrase 'get a room' is not meant to be derogatory in any way. The purpose of 'Issue Specific' threads is to allow detailed discussion of specific issues by those interested, which avoids an old problem on UKPR when a 'niche' issue started to clog up more polling specific discussion. UKPR2 has additional features to help solve issues from UKPR - lets use them  |
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Post by barbara on Nov 24, 2021 16:10:59 GMT
You have moved the goal posts somewhat. I was responding to your comment about "Organised Religions". Now you present me with three major Faith Groups. I will come back to them. Hi Colin, I am conscious that this is a conversation mainly between the two of us so I don't want to bore everybody. I think I may have misled you by just listing 3 faith groups so I apologise. I did not mean to imply that the whole of Christianity is the same. What I mean is that within those faith groups there are plenty of examples of Christian organisations that are built on male power structures that discriminate between people and regulate behaviour. Somebody had to write the rules down for each organisation within these overall faith groups. I don't think the detail and subsequent developments came from God or Jesus or Mohammed. The rules were written by men largely for their own benefit and their purpose was twofold. To establish power structures and hierarchies within the organisation and to regulate the behaviour of everyone else. Despite major developments within society these rules have largely remained intact across centuries and are still regularly used by those in power to resist change. When rules have been changed it has rarely happened from the top down but through grass roots pressure building. eg. women priests, gay clergy, and often against formidable resistance from within the power groups. In this way organised religions are no different from any other organisation which seeks to retain power and regulate others. This was my original point; that the ORGANISATION of religion has little to do with faith and much to do with managing an organisation and is no different from any other organisation. Some examples: Christianity: there is still significant and determined opposition to both women clergy and gay marriage within Christian organised groups in other countries ( eg Africa). The right wing Christian fundamentalist groups in the US are largely led by white socially conservative males and the black gospel movement largely led by black males. Judaism - in Orthodox Judaism women are required to sit separately from the men ( usually further away from the action ) and to wear wigs or other head coverings. Islam - the Taliban needs no expanding, nor does the Islamic religious hierarchy in Iran These rules and regulations and social mores have nothing to do with the faith and a lot to do with the humans (mainly men.) That was the point I was making. |
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Post by Mark on Nov 24, 2021 16:12:09 GMT
Sadly I cannot see it eithor. The same goes for your earlier post.
Using Firefox here, so not sure it's browser specific if Edge is not displaying it eithor.
If others also cannot see it, please say - and state which browser you are using, just in case it's browser related, and I'll take the issue to Proboards.
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Post by barbara on Nov 24, 2021 16:15:53 GMT
leftie liberal.
I agree with your point about atheists and I think it supports my point that this is not about faith or non faith but about organisational power structures, wherever and on whatever basis.
I wasn't decrying faith - not at all - just the organisation of some of it.
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Post by alec on Nov 24, 2021 16:18:37 GMT
Seems like we are seeing some really positive data coming through on third booster jabs.
Several bits of data have shown that the third jab confers a higher level of anitbody and T cell production than either of the first two jabs, and there is some emerging data to suggest that it is also leading to much better sterilizing immunity. This now appaers to be showing through in the UK data, where cases are rising sharply, but with a pretty precipitous fall in hospitalisations and deaths. This may yet turn out to be another case of assuming the pandemic is over too soon, but some of the more cautious experts are now wondering out loud whether a 'three jabs and you're done' regime could be what we are seeing.
The Novovax shot is also up for approval in the UK and US, and this protein based vaccine has shown good efficacy with much reduced toxicity (side effects) which could be good news for the vaccine hesitant. Patch vaccines are in use in Thailand and nasal sprays being developed in several countries. Things genuinely seem positive now, at last. [Too many sources to post for all this, so take my word for it].
Only slight cloud - variant C.1.2 has appeared in S Africa, and this has a series of horrible looking spike mutations. Let's hope it isn't a major breakthrough variant.
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Post by wb61 on Nov 24, 2021 16:20:58 GMT
@ Steve
I will, for once and once only, be generous to Dominic Raab and assume that he was confusing "Pig" from Pipkins with Peppa Pig: if he didn't then "may god have mercy on us all" as Dr Foster and The University of Minnesota Spankological Protocol might say (courtesy of the Simpsons)
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 24, 2021 16:21:16 GMT
Mark
Seeing it fine using a kindle fire which is a modified Android based system
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