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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 10:18:35 GMT
Reflecting on recent discussions here and trying to come back to polling:- Anything will be better than: “what and why is a nation and who invented them: you must complete at leat two blank pages.” (On the plus side one was not forced to read the entries.) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 10:28:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 10:30:24 GMT
Might I be the first to say how much I've enjoyed this weekend's Pseuds' Corner event on UKPR2. The breadth and depth of discussion has been very illuminatiing and informative.
I'm irresistibly reminded of an exchange between Tony Hancock and Hattie Jacques when Hancock was considering setting himself up as a private tutor.
Tony : "I think I'll call myself Anthony Hancock, M.A. (Cantab)."
Hattie : "What's Cantab?"
Tony : "It means Cambridge."
Hattie : "I think I'll use that for myself."
Tony : "No, I think Oxon would be better for you."
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Post by caroline on Feb 7, 2022 10:35:51 GMT
Thank you for posting this link Colin. I saw this in November. This polling confirmed my own views as a political canvasser. On the doorstep people often agree with Labour Policies but then say they will (or have always) voted conservative. You get used to this as a canvasser In the past it has been fairly good natured but Johnson has exploited the culture wars and divided the Nation in ways I have not experienced before. There is now real hatred out there.
some quotes from the article
"The findings confirm a growing phenomenon known as affective polarisation – a “them versus us” mentality that places animosity towards political opponents above almost all other considerations – that is alarming political scientists.
Experts have argued that the phenomenon can eventually lead voters to support corrupt politicians who violate democratic norms, simply because they believe it preferable to the opposition winning an election."
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Post by leftieliberal on Feb 7, 2022 10:41:47 GMT
I did that in 1970 only ours was 1848 to 1939 if I recall correctly. Ours chickened out just before WW1 but included the events building up to it, but 1848 was a really pivotal year. My History 'O' level, taken in 1964 covered 1830 up to 1914. So for us, the Great Reform Act of 1832 was really important as was the Municipal Corporations Act of 1835. After that it was mostly Palmerston, Disraeli and Gladstone. I suspect that growing up in Coventry, which always was a Labour city (and for Parliament in the Civil War) had an influence on my school's choice of syllabus. We did cover 1848, but only peripherally. Oddly, the great reforming Liberal Government from 1906 onwards wasn't really covered, but then as I said Coventry was a Labour city. |
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Post by mandolinist on Feb 7, 2022 10:42:08 GMT
Changing the subject completely, it's been a fabulous weekend watching the birds in and around our bird feeders. On the ground we've had a pheasant, blackbirds, chaffinches and sparrows (various), plus a pair of robins. On the hanging feeders a whole herd of goldfinches (7 the highest count), a nuthatch, several greenfinch, a brambling, starlings, loads of blue tits, coal tits and a lesser redpoll. Ah, at last. Something I know a bit about and fancy commenting on 
A lesser repoll, wow, is that a first for your garden? We had a great spotted woodpecker on Sunday, and within seconds the radio 4 tweet of the day was a great spotted woodpecker! Haven't seen a nuthatch for a while in the garden.
There is a bit of an irruption of firecrests very locally to me so I am on the lookout in the yew at the bottom of the garden where we sometimes spot goldcrests.
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Post by leftieliberal on Feb 7, 2022 10:48:22 GMT
moby Our numb nuts barristers first question to me was " can you identify me x to the court" the answer was of course no , but I could of 9 months ago, which is what I just told you before giving evidence. Apparently he'd asked the same question to my junior colleague who had promptly with great confidence pointed at the wrong defendant and said "that's him" . Now was this a lie, technically possibly but was it done with intent or was it simply inexperience and a daft prick of a prosecuting barrister? Thinks are rarely entirely black and white. The last option for me. What on earth was your prosecuting barrister doing asking a question that he did not know your colleague knew the right answer to. There have been some nasty miscarriages of justice involving identical twins (particularly when DNA evidence has been relied on). |
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Post by mandolinist on Feb 7, 2022 10:51:18 GMT
I took my history O level in 1976, social and economic history from 1750-1920. It was all south sea bubble and Arkwright. Tangentally the Great Reform Bill, but much more the various factory acts and abolition of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Quite a radical syllabus really, what with the corn laws, the Peterloo massecre and the suffragettes.
The weakness of the syllabus was that it didn't place British history within a much broader European or world history. It really fostered the myth of British exceptionalism.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 10:52:22 GMT
Thank you for posting this link Colin. I saw this in November. This polling confirmed my own views as a political canvasser. On the doorstep people often agree with Labour Policies but then say they will (or have always) voted conservative. You get used to this as a canvasser In the past it has been fairly good natured but Johnson has exploited the culture wars and divided the Nation in ways I have not experienced before. There is now real hatred out there. some quotes from the article "The findings confirm a growing phenomenon known as affective polarisation – a “them versus us” mentality that places animosity towards political opponents above almost all other considerations – that is alarming political scientists. Experts have argued that the phenomenon can eventually lead voters to support corrupt politicians who violate democratic norms, simply because they believe it preferable to the opposition winning an election." THanks Its difficult for me to respond to this in a useful way carolineYou indicate that you are a Labour Party activist ( unless I am mistaken?). I dont have the opportunity to speak to the people from whom you draw the conclusion that Johnson has "divided the nation" and caused "hatred". I might accept that he has caused hatred for himself -if that is what you meant ? But the YG poll finding , that "Levels of mutual dislike are high among people at opposite ends of the political spectrum" was across all the countries polled. I have my own ideas about the reason for this dislike ( despite the tendency to be less divided on issues) -and it certainly pre-dates Boris Johnson. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 7, 2022 10:54:12 GMT
Ours chickened out just before WW1 but included the events building up to it, but 1848 was a really pivotal year. My History 'O' level, taken in 1964 covered 1830 up to 1914. So for us, the Great Reform Act of 1832 was really important as was the Municipal Corporations Act of 1835. After that it was mostly Palmerston, Disraeli and Gladstone. I suspect that growing up in Coventry, which always was a Labour city (and for Parliament in the Civil War) had an influence on my school's choice of syllabus. We did cover 1848, but only peripherally. Oddly, the great reforming Liberal Government from 1906 onwards wasn't really covered, but then as I said Coventry was a Labour city. As I recall it was a pressured 5th Form year. Our headteacher (suburban secondary modern) decided that she would teach us personally and take us through 'O' level religious knowledge in the autumn and then teach us history for the summer 'O' level exams. So we had two lessons of RK a week in the autumn term 'til the exam, followed by two history lessons a week 'til the summer exams. Happily I passed both, so it worked for some of us. Thinking back, the RK syllabus must've been taught in just a few weeks. The history 'O' level was truly European, in that it hardly touched on UK history of that period. For most of us in our insular suburban way European history was a real eye opener. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 10:58:24 GMT
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Post by caroline on Feb 7, 2022 11:00:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:08:45 GMT
my sister wants Home rule for Cornwall! So does my wife Kernow Bys Vyken Attachment Deleted |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 7, 2022 11:11:25 GMT
Changing the subject completely, it's been a fabulous weekend watching the birds in and around our bird feeders. On the ground we've had a pheasant, blackbirds, chaffinches and sparrows (various), plus a pair of robins. On the hanging feeders a whole herd of goldfinches (7 the highest count), a nuthatch, several greenfinch, a brambling, starlings, loads of blue tits, coal tits and a lesser redpoll. Ah, at last. Something I know a bit about and fancy commenting on 
A lesser repoll, wow, is that a first for your garden? We had a great spotted woodpecker on Sunday, and within seconds the radio 4 tweet of the day was a great spotted woodpecker! Haven't seen a nuthatch for a while in the garden.
There is a bit of an irruption of firecrests very locally to me so I am on the lookout in the yew at the bottom of the garden where we sometimes spot goldcrests. Mrs SDA spotted the red poll yesterday and I saw it this morning. It's the first red poll we've spotted here but we did have several appear about this time of year in our old garden once, that's 3 miles from where we are now. Haven't seen, or heard any woodpeckers here, though at our old place there was often a green woodpecker about. Last year we had a couple of nuthatches around and I think they nested in the churchyard just up the road. They were certainly seen there in the Spring. So far this year we've only seen the occasional singleton. The brambling was a shock, we had to look it up as we don't think we've ever seen one before, so vibrant. We never realised it last summer when the leaves were on the trees but when the leaves dropped we discovered a little goldfinch nest in the acer just outside one of our lounge windows. So the large numbers around aren't surprising. The pic is of the tree coming into leaf Attachment Deleted |
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Post by robbiealive on Feb 7, 2022 11:12:38 GMT
There is a new poll out & noone has quoted it. Must say it's pretty slack for a polling site.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:15:10 GMT
Tweet
See new Tweets
Conversation
Britain Elects
@britainelects
Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 41% (-1)
CON: 34% (+2)
LDEM: 10% (-)
via
@deltapolluk
, 03 - 04 Feb
Chgs. w/ 27 Jan
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:16:14 GMT
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Post by thylacine on Feb 7, 2022 11:27:16 GMT
Wonder if the blue on blue action re Lord Ashcroft and Sajid will impact on polls or is it all too cerebral?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:27:38 GMT
Tweet See new Tweets Conversation Britain Elects @britainelects Westminster voting intention: LAB: 41% (-1) CON: 34% (+2) LDEM: 10% (-) via @deltapolluk , 03 - 04 Feb Chgs. w/ 27 Jan That seems a pretty robust Tory position considering Thursday and Friday came at the end of another torrid week following the Savile affair, hourly resignations etc. |
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Post by caroline on Feb 7, 2022 11:32:42 GMT
Thank you for posting this link Colin. I saw this in November. This polling confirmed my own views as a political canvasser. On the doorstep people often agree with Labour Policies but then say they will (or have always) voted conservative. You get used to this as a canvasser In the past it has been fairly good natured but Johnson has exploited the culture wars and divided the Nation in ways I have not experienced before. There is now real hatred out there. some quotes from the article "The findings confirm a growing phenomenon known as affective polarisation – a “them versus us” mentality that places animosity towards political opponents above almost all other considerations – that is alarming political scientists. Experts have argued that the phenomenon can eventually lead voters to support corrupt politicians who violate democratic norms, simply because they believe it preferable to the opposition winning an election." THanks Its difficult for me to respond to this in a useful way caroline You indicate that you are a Labour Party activist ( unless I am mistaken?). I dont have the opportunity to speak to the people from whom you draw the conclusion that Johnson has "divided the nation" and caused "hatred". I might accept that he has caused hatred for himself -if that is what you meant ? But the YG poll finding , that "Levels of mutual dislike are high among people at opposite ends of the political spectrum" was across all the countries polled. I have my own ideas about the reason for this dislike ( despite the tendency to be less divided on issues) -and it certainly pre-dates Boris Johnson. Mutual dislike and hatred are different. I haven't been canvassing for a while, we don't have local elections in our area this year. When you canvas you know from previous canvas returns how people have said they would vote but you knock on every door in an area regardless. Those that support your party are not likely to harangue you with vitriol. In the Brexit election it was different. In the 2019 election it was even worse. We had passerby ripping up our leaflets , hurling insults and throwing cans at us on street stalls. Nationally the rise of extreme right wing groups is frightening. Jo cox was murdered. MPs fear for their safety in constituency offices. This is hatred. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:33:07 GMT
This YG survey indicates that the personal antipathy towards political opponents seen on these pages is far from unusual in western countries-Left being more inclined to dislike Right than the other way around. There is a whole load of merchandise LoCs can buy to 'express' their views (one of my nieces seems quite keen of that kind of thing, sporting the 'Tories putting the 'n' in 'cuts' t-shirt in her recent social media posts). You don't see much the other way round www.etsy.com/uk/market/never_kissed_a_toryI find it funny (with a heavy dose of irony) and am certainly not offended. It was perhaps more of a Corbyn-era thing and of course Starmer doesn't do slogans (other than 'Make Brexit Work', etc)  www.newstatesman.com/politics/2018/08/should-we-really-be-ok-with-never-kiss-a-tory-2I've done more than kiss socialists in my time and one could possibly argue that RoCs love screwing socialists, but just don't feel the need to wear a t-shirt starting that? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2022 11:34:45 GMT
I took my history O level in 1976, social and economic history from 1750-1920. It was all south sea bubble and Arkwright. Tangentally the Great Reform Bill, but much more the various factory acts and abolition of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Quite a radical syllabus really, what with the corn laws, the Peterloo massecre and the suffragettes. The weakness of the syllabus was that it didn't place British history within a much broader European or world history. It really fostered the myth of British exceptionalism. Were you taught that there were 3 Reform Acts in 1832 - 1 for each of the political/legal systems in the UK? Almost certainly not : I never was, either at school or university. I didn't even know it when I was teaching a similar history course in 1976! What was called "British history" was almost entirely "English history" and didn't even place that "within a much broader" British history, much less European or world history. To fill that gap in historical knowledge, here's an outline of the Scottish Act - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Reform_Act_1832#:~:text=The%20Scottish%20Reform%20Act%201832%20was%20an%20Act,the%20Representation%20of%20the%20People%20%28Scotland%29%20Act%201832. and the Irish one - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_(Ireland)_Act_1832Damned nationalist history syllabuses! |
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Post by ladyvalerie on Feb 7, 2022 11:38:00 GMT
I studied history A-level in 1972. It was a one-year course so we didn’t do the whole syllabus. We started with the Congress of Vienna in 1815 and stopped before the First World War as it was only a one year course. The ideas and themes have stood me in good stead in understanding politics today. In particular, the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 and how the idea of deserving versus undeserving poor has always been with us. Only the other day, Robert made a comment about people on benefits having the audacity to buy a cup of takeaway coffee.
Moving on, my father was born in Dublin in 1911, came over to England aged 16, and joined the British army where he served with some distinction until he retired in 1964. I was born in Gibraltar where he was serving at the time. On my mother’s side, my great-grandfather came here from Italy in the 19th century. He was a musician who used to play in park bandstands along the South Coast.
I live in England and speak English but I don’t consider myself to be English. If asked, I say I am British. When I hitchhiked around Europe in the early 70s we used to have a Union Jack on rucksacks which seemed to help us to get lifts. Nowadays I would be embarrassed to do so and would expect pitying looks from our European neighbours.
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Post by caroline on Feb 7, 2022 11:41:17 GMT
my sister wants Home rule for Cornwall! So does my wife Kernow Bys Vyken <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Well I hope she won't resort to blowing up the Tamar bridge and making Emmets swim across the estuary. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:41:25 GMT
Wonder if the blue on blue action re Lord Ashcroft and Sajid will impact on polls or is it all too cerebral? Maybe Saj is getting a cut on the royalties in return for the 'free marketing'? |
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Post by alec on Feb 7, 2022 11:44:11 GMT
Here, we are seeing large flocks of fieldfare and a few redwing moving through, as they pause to feed on the south facing slopes behind our house. Treecrepper, nutatch and woodpecker at the feeder, along with the usual crowd.
Meanwhile: Is it just me that this vaguely amuses?
After two years of lectures from the right about political correctness going mad, safe spaces and cancel culture, someone writes a book about the PMs wife and government ministers get all lathered up claiming sexism and misogyny, and Jimmy Carr makes a poor joke so ministers say he should be cancelled.
What gives?
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Post by jimjam on Feb 7, 2022 11:48:52 GMT
Isa,
I think that of the last 19 polls 17 have the Tories between 31 and 34% with one each for 30 and 35; and the average is close to 32.5%.
So 32/33% is a reasonable estimate with close to 33% perhaps atm as more 31% are earlier in the batch.
The same 19 polls for Labour range from 38-44% but only one at 44% and an average just below 41%.
This 7% lead, therefore, seems entirely consistent with the general position within a modest moe.
House effects, prompting and adjustments, and some being UK (as most are GB) etc make a crude average very general but good enough for us for now.
No doubt R&W will produce a 12% or 3% lead to undermine mine suggestion!
I am very keen to see how the direct Tory 2019 to Lab movement develops or holds in the coming weeks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:51:12 GMT
I took my history O level in 1976, social and economic history from 1750-1920. It was all south sea bubble and Arkwright. Tangentally the Great Reform Bill, but much more the various factory acts and abolition of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Quite a radical syllabus really, what with the corn laws, the Peterloo massecre and the suffragettes. The weakness of the syllabus was that it didn't place British history within a much broader European or world history. It really fostered the myth of British exceptionalism. Very similar to our syllabus in content although ours also threw in quite a bit about Railway mania and canals, I seem to recall. Loads about electoral matters, extension of the franchise etc., which I found strangely fascinating, a phenomenon that continues to this day for me. Our period ended somewhat randomly in 1932, just after the fall of the second MacDonald administration. |
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Post by jimjam on Feb 7, 2022 11:52:23 GMT
Paul
''Quibble and Carp (my brilliant board game) is still available at most relevant dealers but can be obtained from me, directly, for ten quid, incl. p & p.''
I bought the competitor game Cavil but it has sat unused for over 2 years even through lock-down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 11:52:25 GMT
My understanding is that the UK is a unitary state and that devolution doesn't prevent that classification. In fact, it rather proves it. If the UK wasn't unitary then Scotland would have no need of devolution.
Here is the WIKI page definition, perhaps you have a better one.
"A unitary state is a state governed as a single entity in which the central government is ultimately supreme. The central government may create (or abolish) administrative divisions (sub-national units). Such units exercise only the powers that the central government chooses to delegate. Although political power may be delegated through devolution to regional or local governments by statute, the central government may abrogate the acts of devolved governments or curtail (or expand) their powers. "
That seems to cover our situation.
Further, my understanding is that the 1707 treaty merged the two former states into a new single unitary state with regional variations. Additional treaties adding or removing other territories over time. The power to annul that 1707 treaty rests solely with the Westminster parliament and there is no requirement for them to do so to grant any or all of the former state of Scotland independence. It would seem to me sensible not to do so, as unwinding three hundred years of union would be very complex.
Therefore, whatever independence Scotland might be granted would probably be at the behest of the Westminster parliament in ceding territory to a new unitary state outside the UK. From that it follows that Westminster has the power to grant independence to whatever parts of the UK it wishes, divided as it wishes. Once unitary those states can chart their own course. As such, no parts of the former Scottish state that wished to remain part of the UK would ever be required to leave the UK or rejoin it. They would simply remain as part of the unitary UK state.
So, returning to the self-determinist issue, if we accept that Scotland, in whatever form, has a right to independence, we must also accept that the regions of Scotland may likewise choose. I make no claims as to the likely outcome of those choices or any morale argument about the rights of the UK government.
On a personal level, I would like Scotland to remain in the UK as it is quite a progressive 'region' of 'the country' and I probably have more in common with most Scots than I do with many of my 'English' neighbours. Also, as my family is mixed English and Welsh, it suits my personal identity to be British above any other national identity. However, I'm not especially nationalist about this, as I was happy to be joined political with Europe as well.
I think we've bored everyone enough on this subject now, so I'll bow out but I'll read your reply if you make one. |
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