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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 6, 2022 19:22:47 GMT
Depends - do you have any white stilettos?  And matching handbag ! You may laugh, but in 1989 I was a regional sales manager with NatWest based in Old Broad Street opposite the Stock Exchange. In my team was our admin clerk, a twenty something Essex girl called Sally. She was gorgeous, with blonde hair, white stilettoes and white handbag. But the accent - oh dear. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 6, 2022 19:22:56 GMT
@danny - "This concluded lockdowns saved maybe 0.2% of deaths which would otherwise have occurred. Thats 2 per thousand. In the Uk there have been about 150,000 deaths, so thats saving about 300 people. At a cost of more than a billion pounds each." Skip back a page to my post about that paper. It's total rubbish, from biaised economists who campaigned against lockdown. A seriously flawed methodology that is so bad it would be better used as toilet paper. Afraid I didnt see it- where is it? as i said, their main contention is that most published work on the epidemic and at the start when choosing to impose lockdown was based upon theoretical modelling which is simply not supported by measured facts based upon experience of the disease. Experts guessed, and guessed wrong. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 19:38:27 GMT
@danny
"Afraid I didnt see it- where is it?"
Alec told you "back a page"
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 6, 2022 19:41:09 GMT
Thanks for pointing that out - its been corrected. As is the case with the Church, it marks my posts out as special.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 19:43:07 GMT
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Post by davwel on Feb 6, 2022 19:54:50 GMT
pjw @ 17.23 pm said
""So, as I understand it, you believe that you understand Essex because you have visited it a few times. I've had three holidays in Wales but I don't consider myself qualified to know what the man on the Caernarvon omnibus is thinking. Your 'Essex girls' anecdote is as much a stereotype as if I said I thought everyone from Preston eats black pudding and wears a flat cap or all Scotsman are mean and play the bagpipes (which - to be clear - I don't definitely don't think). Essex has a population of 1.5m and within that there is much diversity. If you're basing your view on the Tories currently holding all 18 Essex seats, do remember that is a product of FPTP. Essex has returned Labour and Lib Dem MPs in the past and will do so again in the future.
It is a curious view to hold that everyone in Scotland and the North of England understands the whole nation and votes exclusively in the wider interest, whereas people in the south east are a bunch of dimwits who know nothing but their own area. My view is that knowledge and ignorance are likely to be spread around pretty evenly across any nation, with the possible exception of the additional pull of bright people to big cities and universities"".
I reply - This is becoming absurd.
How silly to claim that I have visited Essex only "a few times" and so I am not qualified to comment on people`s views there.
Why do you assume people who stay in NE Scotland hardly ever come down to the SE, and don`t “visit” the county or otherwise know it. There are plane flights down to London, besides the sleeper: I used to get up at 6 am, fly down to Heathrow, and be on the steps of the Natural History Museum at 9.45 am, and meet there my colleague from West Malling who often arrived precisely then from his commuter train. And when you spend a day with a person, and hear of the problems of finding somewhere to live in Kent, you empathise.
For the record, and to defend my commenting, I spent time on most weekends in Essex during my student days; our courses took us to the botanical hotspots such as Royston Heath (which I`ve been back to, to see the bee orchids, when having a week`s holiday nearby), and Shadwell and Hayley woods. I have recently written articles for music journals on Essex organs, one about a Chelmsford organ builder (unfortunate name - John Rust) and another partly on a rogue who operated in Bradfield – and to do this you need emails, phone calls, letters, to get facts right.
Besides personal contacts, there are many useful national data sources, like facts on UKIP polling, their win for the HoC in Clacton in 2014. I don`t say the UKIP vote measures or mirrors insularity, but it is indicative.
So hopefully you won`t dig further into the hole you have made, but accept that I do have some basis for commenting on Essex. And what is this nation you talk about - WHICH of the FOUR? That comment insults the other 3 nations, maybe unintentionally.
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Post by jib on Feb 6, 2022 19:58:26 GMT
mercian"I've just checked the latest (automatically updated) figures on Wikipedia. Norway has had 268 deaths/million, Finland 370, Denmark 664 and Sweden 1592." Clear facts. No doubt the one that knows better has an irrational explanation.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 20:03:07 GMT
You may laugh, but in 1989 I was a regional sales manager with NatWest based in Old Broad Street opposite the Stock Exchange. In my team was our admin clerk, a twenty something Essex girl called Sally. She was gorgeous, with blonde hair, white stilettoes and white handbag. But the accent - oh dear. When I was working for Essex County Council the then leader got very exercised about the "Essex Girl" stereotype and spent public money campaigning to change the image of Essex. That leader was Lord Hanningfield, subsequently convicted and jailed for expenses fraud, so I think it would be fair to say he did far more damage to Essex's image than any number of the fair maidens of that county. Despite being thrown out of the Conservative Party, he still attends the Lords as an Independent and collects his expenses because there is no way to remove someone. It's a job for life. The Lords needs wholesale reform. |
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Post by Mark on Feb 6, 2022 20:06:53 GMT
Re-Sunak's "Energy bill loan"...
There will be a lot of people who don't get the loan - teens/early twnty-somethings living with parents, students living in halls or digs, anyone currently in social shared housing etc. etc. - that will have the first payback installment tacked onto their bills when the time comes.
I see legal challenges arising in the not too distant future.
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Post by Old Southendian on Feb 6, 2022 20:15:44 GMT
I've got no idea about Essex girls, as I went to the boy's school. Not sure what people have got against Essex. I lived there for 18 perfectly wonderful years before I was old enough to get the hell out.
PS As someone said earlier, there are some wonderful places, particularly in North Essex, and further south, Danbury brings back great memories, but the Thames Estuary is not the cream of the crop. My main problem is that I really like mountains, and you can't get much further away from them than being in Essex or Kent.
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Post by guymonde on Feb 6, 2022 20:25:43 GMT
alec "And where you say that it isn't up to 'back room plotters' to decide the PMs fate, you are of course entirely incorrect. It is the main job of MPs to decide who gets to be PM.
I would suggest that you might want to go a bit easy on this line of logic though. If you think that voters decide who gets to be PM, then clearly if that PM falls, then it - surely - must be voters who decide the new one?
You need to be a bit more careful about these things."I believe a certain Mr Rees Mogg has the same belief
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 20:29:22 GMT
pjw @ 17.23 pm said I reply - This is becoming absurd. How silly to claim that I have visited Essex "only a few times" and so I am not qualified to comment on people`s views there. Why do you assume people who stay in NE Scotland hardly ever come down to the SE, and don`t “visit” the county or otherwise know it. There are plane flights down to London, besides the sleeper: I used to get up at 6 am, fly down to Heathrow, and be on the steps of the Natural History Museum at 9.45 am, and meet there my colleague from West Malling who often arrived precisely then from his commuter train. And when you spend a day with a person, and hear of the problems of finding somewhere to live in Kent, you empathise. For the record, and to defend my commenting, I spent time on most weekends in Essex during my student days; our courses took us to the botanical hotspots such as Royston Heath (which I`ve been back to, to see the bee orchids, when having a week`s holiday nearby), and Shadwell and Hayley woods. I have recently written articles for music journals on Essex organs, one about a Chelmsford organ builder (unfortunate name - John Rust) and another partly on a rogue who operated in Bradfield – and to do this you need emails, phone calls, letters, to get facts right. Besides personal contacts, there are many useful national data sources, like facts on UKIP polling, their win for the HoC in Clacton in 2014. I don`t say the UKIP vote measures or mirrors insularity, but it is indicative. So hopefully you won`t dig further into the hole you have made, but accept that I do have some basis for commenting on Essex. And what is this nation you talk about - WHICH of the FOUR? That comment insults the other 3 nations, maybe unintentionally. My point is exactly that I am not making assumptions about other places and I am content to admit my ignorance of the local issues in St Ives or Shrewsbury or Aberdeen. You are the one making assumptions about Essex that are partly true and partly not - exactly as I would if I wrote a post about the people of Brighton for example, a place I have visited occasionally and have polling evidence for. If we go back to what your original post was: you said that "recent immigrants" should not be permitted to have jobs on national media because they are ignorant of all parts of the country. I said that was true of most people beyond a few limited areas they know well and why were you singling out immigrants for criticism? Perhaps you might like to answer that? And just for clarity, when I said "any nation" I wasn't even referring to the UK, but any of the world's peoples as I think is clear from the context. Most people world-wide know what they know locally and the rest is often stereotype. I am happy to agree about the absurdity of these exchanges. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 6, 2022 20:30:52 GMT
I think I know why the redoubtable Mr Somerjohn, my old car making confrere, heads to the Iberian Peninsular for sun and solace. It's becoming a centre left haven from European right wing populism. António Costa’s centre left government has just been re-elected in Portugal, improving on their 2019 performance in the process, and the increasingly impressive Pedro Sánchez, first elected in 2018 in Spain, has cobbled together a variety of broadly centre left administrations since and, after hanging on in almost Wilsonian ways for much of that time, is gaining some rewards now, doing well enough in the polls to suggest the old maestro and survivor might be re-elected. I admire Sanchez very much. My sort of politician. It's dangerous to reach across different nations with their particular political cultures and try and draw universally applicable lessons, but as with the Social Democrat revival in Germany under Scholz, the lesson for the centre left in terms of getting into power appears to be to make common cause and eschew virtue based factionalism. Eyes on the bigger picture, a bonfire of the vanities and a steely eyed focus on the real enemy. They're usually the ones in the other tent, not yours. That tent is often running things too. Alas. You've got to evict them. As my lifetime hero Harold once said (my photo for the week) politics is the art of the possible. It always has been. It's a noble trade riddled with inevitable disappointment. Government too is a licence to disappoint really and change is always gradual in a pluralist democracy, but you can change a lot of people's lives immeasurably for the better by having a go. But you have to get in a position of power to even begin to have a go. Labour still have to earn that right, I know. Without being too proud about it all, I think it's worth having a look at Germany, Spain and Portugal and see what the broadly progressive political parties in those countries did in order to win. By winning, some good but very imperfect people are now in power, trying to change people's lives for the better. In disappointing ways too no doubt. But they're having a go. So bravo Antonio, Pedro and Oliver. Keep on keeping on. A Mateus Rose, San Miguel and a Pilsner on me.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 20:34:27 GMT
Thanks for pointing that out - its been corrected. As is the case with the Church, it marks my posts out as special. They are always special anyway Lulu.  <<<<<<<<< obsequious, grovelling emoji. |
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Post by John Chanin on Feb 6, 2022 20:37:44 GMT
As a typical expatriate east Londoner with Essex affiliations I would comment:
(a) Essex is a big county, and Witham (however you pronounce it) is in the north. South Essex has a distinctive and different culture
(b) Like all stereotypes there is an element of truth in them, but it is very different whether they are used affectionately or hostilely
(c) In my penultimate job (in Southend) we had two “essex girls” who met the stereotype of fashion sense, accent (which I share an educated version of), and problems with spelling. But both were highly competent, empathetic, and tolerant - the sort of work colleague we would all welcome.
(d) The majority of people in south Essex may not share my politics, but it doesn’t stop them being decent people. There are in my experience many worse parts of the country.
I used to give blood at the same church hall where Amess was assassinated. This really brings it home to you. I had no time for Amess, but felt the general outrage about it. Politics needs to be sincerely and hard fought, but we are all human and part of the same country.
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Post by davwel on Feb 6, 2022 20:45:31 GMT
pjw:
You ought to read what I said.
This was that recent immigrants need to take steps to absorb facts about other parts of the UK than the places where they have established themselves, before being fit to do all-UK jobs in the media.
Do you know the % votes for UKIP in Scotland in recent GEs and believe it is similar to Essex? But maybe your "nearly everyone" in the UK doesn`t include Scots, that you consider an insignificant minority.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 20:54:33 GMT
Davwel
"WHICH of the FOUR?"
Even ignoring Cornwall (which I gather is routinely done - even as "part of England") there are FIVE. Even discounting the geographically illiterate who use England, GB and UK as synonyms, there are folk who are genuinely "Britiah" and consider themselves to belong to a British nation (sometimes with a strange belief that Britain incorporates part of Ireland).
That's just as valid a "nationality" (which is, of course, just a social construct with no objective definition) as the others.
The conflict arises only because their "nation" covers the territories of the four other nations. These can co-exist - and did for many years while the joint project of controlling the rest of the world was in operation. John Buchan said in HoC “Every Scotsman should be a Scottish nationalist”[1] and was open to the idea of a restored Scottish Parliament within the Empire, but simultaneously embraced the idea of being British.[2]
[1] Other than UK Unionist propagandists and those obsessed by the 1930s, sensible folk recognise that "nationalism" can have a variety of meanings and attributes, depending on context.
[2] Which isn't much different from the view of those in the largest Scots political "tribe" as being Scots and European - much as Remainers/Rejoiners in rUK (plus some in Scotland) see themselves as being British and European.
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Post by jen on Feb 6, 2022 21:03:52 GMT
Apart from the "old & middle-class" bit, what you are describing is a socialist. You know, those people who Thatcher found so disgusting. I think you're wrong there. I'd say that robbie's description pretty much applies to me, and I believe I'm considered RoC - I've even been called far right! I think you're falling into the trap of believing that those that you disagree with politically are somehow worse human beings than your 'side' just because they have different priorities or ideas to yourself. Then unsurprisingly we disagree. I see no contradiction if somebody considered right of centre is also a socialist. I think you are falling into the trap of assuming what my political orientation is. Just being an anti-fascist doesn't necessarily make one left wing. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 21:06:37 GMT
Re-Sunak's "Energy bill loan"... There will be a lot of people who don't get the loan - teens/early twnty-somethings living with parents, students living in halls or digs, anyone currently in social shared housing etc. etc. - that will have the first payback installment tacked onto their bills when the time comes. I see legal challenges arising in the not too distant future. If I understand the proposal correctly, none of us will receive this loan. The loan (£200 x the number of domestic meters currently in use) will be given pro rata to the suppliers who are instructed to reduce the October quarterly bill (with an unspecified mechanism for prepayment meters) by £200. The suppliers will then be entitled to add £40 per year to every metered bill (perhaps including new meters that were not in existence in October 2022?) to recoup the discount that they used the UKGov loan to give. I have not seen the arrangements by which the suppliers are to repay that loan that they received from UKGov. Presumably they exist, else UKGov has simply given a huge bung to the suppliers. No individuals get a loan, so any legal challenge would have to be based on another premise. |
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Post by jen on Feb 6, 2022 21:06:50 GMT
You may laugh, but in 1989 I was a regional sales manager with NatWest based in Old Broad Street opposite the Stock Exchange. In my team was our admin clerk, a twenty something Essex girl called Sally. She was gorgeous, with blonde hair, white stilettoes and white handbag. But the accent - oh dear. I wonder what she thought of your accent. |
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 6, 2022 21:10:30 GMT
It should probably be noted that there's no shortage of physical beds in the NHS, when we say 'A Bed' it means *everything* needed to admit someone to inpatient care at a hospital not just where they'll sleep. And it was always understood that the Nightingale hospitals were going to be an expenditure that was not going to end up back for immediate reuse by the NHS. However, there's a good case to be made for these being handed down in some way to care-homes that are using much older and lower specification beds. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 21:11:20 GMT
pjw: You ought to read what I said. This was that recent immigrants need to take steps to absorb facts about other parts of the UK than the places where they have established themselves, before being fit to do all-UK jobs in the media. Do you know the % votes for UKIP in Scotland in recent GEs and believe it is similar to Essex? But maybe your "nearly everyone" in the UK doesn`t include Scots, that you consider an insignificant minority. My comments about "nearly everyone" at all points throughout this fairly ludicrous exchange have clearly related to people's general unawareness of the details of different places, and that not being confined to immigrants. They have absolutely nothing whatever to do with voting patterns, which obviously vary hugely across the UK for a whole variety of reasons. I entirely disagree with your point about immigrants (quite apart from what you suggest as an entry requirement for a media job being potentially discriminatory on several grounds). You seem to assume I am a right-wing, have a dislike of Scottish people and am a keen UK Unionist, and you are wrong on all three counts. Which is exactly the danger of making assumptions. If anything, I am opposed to all forms of nationalism and one of Theresa May's "citizens of nowhere". |
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turk
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Post by turk on Feb 6, 2022 21:11:24 GMT
Moby.
I would certainly agree Johnson is a liar and certainly prone to gross exaggeration. Whether he is any more a liar or prone to exaggeration than any other Politician is a mute point. I have seen many Prime Ministers over the years and if you compare what they say to what actually happens there is often a huge disjoint .
What marks Johnson out from all those other Prime Ministers is he is particularly inept at telling lies whilst others were rather good at it ,the question is does telling lies preclude you from being a politician because if it does the HoC would be a rather sparse place.
After all the much touted party manifesto’s are largely works of fiction and one persons facts are another persons work of fiction especially when it comes to quoting statistics which politicians are particularly prone to do. If you take time to listen to politicians they are experts at bending the truth to fit there arguments , personally I think that this is just the cut and thrust of politics ,that’s not to say being truthful is by far the best policy especially as in Johnson’s case you get caught out.
However I believe absolute truth is a rare commodity in politics and is mainly confined to those MP’s who don’t have ministerial positions or sit on committee’s the British adversarial system makes it very difficult to admit mistakes which in turn lead to lies and cover ups.
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Post by mercian on Feb 6, 2022 21:12:36 GMT
I think you're wrong there. I'd say that robbie's description pretty much applies to me, and I believe I'm considered RoC - I've even been called far right! I think you're falling into the trap of believing that those that you disagree with politically are somehow worse human beings than your 'side' just because they have different priorities or ideas to yourself. Then unsurprisingly we disagree. I see no contradiction if somebody considered right of centre is also a socialist. I think you are falling into the trap of assuming what my political orientation is. Just being an anti-fascist doesn't necessarily make one left wing. I'd be interested in others' views on the bit I highlighted. It's not an idea I've encountered before. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 21:17:35 GMT
jayblanc
"It should probably be noted that there's no shortage of physical beds in the NHS"
But those 40 new hospitals promised (and repeatedly promised) for England must require beds?
The alternative is too horrible to consider! - that this Tory UKGE lied to the English electorate.
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Post by mercian on Feb 6, 2022 21:18:59 GMT
You may laugh, but in 1989 I was a regional sales manager with NatWest based in Old Broad Street opposite the Stock Exchange. In my team was our admin clerk, a twenty something Essex girl called Sally. She was gorgeous, with blonde hair, white stilettoes and white handbag. But the accent - oh dear. I wonder what she thought of your accent. That reminds me of a story of when I was on a Y2K contract at the Met Office. I worked alongside a Welsh chap who had a mild Welsh accent, and there was also a team of three contractors led by an extraordinarily well-spoken chap. He sounded posher than a 1930s radio announcer. Anyway, whenever we all had one of our meetings the Welshman burst out in hysterical laughter every time the posh one opened his mouth, which the latter understandably found rather disconcerting. He kept asking me why the Welshman was laughing and I didn't have the heart to tell him until the day I left. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 21:33:00 GMT
pjw1961
"I am opposed to all forms of nationalism"
So, you are including post-colonial nationalisms in that opposition?
Colonial powers should have continued to exercise power over colonies obtained through right of conquest?
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Post by James E on Feb 6, 2022 21:48:19 GMT
I would certainly agree Johnson is a liar and certainly prone to gross exaggeration. Whether he is any more a liar or prone to exaggeration than any other Politician is a mute point..... Is it really a 'mute' point? Or even a moot* point? Voters certainly aren't keeping quiet - and even those who voted Tory two years ago seem to have become convinced that he's a liar: "Not least of the reasons why Mr Johnson has been unable to change voters’ minds about Partygate is that they simply do not believe what he says. According to Savanta ComRes, 65 per cent feel that throughout the furore the Prime Minister has either “only told lies” or at least that he has “lied more than he has told the truth”. In contrast, just 13 per cent take the view that he has “only told the truth” or “has told the truth more than he has lied”. Even among 2019 Conservative voters, only 23 per cent believe he has largely been truthful. Meanwhile, when Opinium simply asked whether Mr Johnson was telling the truth or not, 75 per cent of all voters (and 61 per cent of Conservatives) said he was not." inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johnson-polls-public-do-note-believe-partygate-1440674* www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2015/jan/16/mind-your-language-moot-point |
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 6, 2022 21:49:22 GMT
turkIn so much as I think I got the gist of what you said in your post of a little earlier, you're arguing that politics is totally devoid of virtue and noble purpose and is populated by people who trade in lies and bullshit. It's a morass of venality with few if any saving graces. Accordingly, all politicians are charlatans and serial liars and anybody who seeks some sort of higher moral ground, and tries to call out all the deceit and falsehood, is a brazen hypocrite. Because they must be liars too. Everyone is as bad as each other in other words. The only real difference is between those who get away with it and those, like Johnson, who get found out. Manifestos, statements to the Commons, pledges, government statistics are all, essentially a pack of lies. Wow. I mean really, wow.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 22:02:48 GMT
pjw1961
"I am opposed to all forms of nationalism"
So, you are including post-colonial nationalisms in that opposition?
Colonial powers should have continued to exercise power over colonies obtained through right of conquest? Before I answer your question, I will note I am fully aware that what follows is probably never going to be possible (although world government is the stock in trade of Science Fiction): My ideal would be a single world government to deal with macro issues such as climate change, but without any oppressive state apparatus such as armed forces and "secret services" at it disposal. Local affairs would be managed through locally elected assemblies at the lowest level possible with direct rather than representative democracy for major issues. So called "Nation states" - largely artificial creations of the period of Empire (c1500-1900CE) - would have no place at all. They are invariably geared for war and oppression of both their own people and others. Colonial oppression was of course wholly wrong and should never have happened in the first place. However, most post-colonial states are artificial creations - lines on maps drawn by Europeans - and many are highly oppressive of minorities within their borders. I would happily see them cease to exist to be replaced by the model above. Fundamentally human beings are human beings. Supposed "Nations" and nationalism are a way of dividing us against each other for the benefits of elites. |
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