oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 8, 2022 1:11:47 GMT
Anent flags, anthems, logos, badges, uniforms and other symbols
These aren't "natural", "accidental" or "automatic". They are deliberate marketing techniques used by the dominant power to create/reinforce/impose a constructed community. They often work, which is why they have been used for millennia.
Where there is sufficient motivation among a group of people to wish to avoid assimilation into the "hive", they provoke resistance and rejection. Where people are happy to be assimilated, that process is reinforced by the requirement for the symbols to be flourished.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 8, 2022 1:16:29 GMT
EoR
Certainly Macron looks sure to be in the run-off, but who will be his rival will determine the outcome. I'm guessing (for my knowledge of French politics is rather weak) that a contest with Le Pen will ensure another term in office.
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Post by eor on Jan 8, 2022 1:25:01 GMT
oldnat - probably on both counts, but certainly on neither. If Zemmour were to drop out, it's quite possible that Marcon would find himself well within the margin of error of the other two candidates from the right, and thus with a non-negligible chance of losing out in the first round. As for a run-off between Macron and Le Pen, polling currently has it at about 55-45 to Macron, with it having drifted rather closer at times. A very far cry from Chirac beating Le Pen senior 80-20 a couple of decades ago, or indeed Macron's own 66-34 win over the current Le Pen last time around.
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Post by statgeek on Jan 8, 2022 4:47:13 GMT
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Post by statgeek on Jan 8, 2022 4:52:54 GMT
I should add, the last time I sang the anthem, I was probably at school, and probably bored doing it. It could spark the greatest resurgence of alternative lyrics, since Weird Al Yankovic. And that's a mixed result, given it just made the songs twice as likely to be annoying.
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2022 6:47:37 GMT
Countries that have confidence in their identities just get on with it. They don't need the manufactured self image of daily anthems. They don't need slogans or rituals to remind themselves who they are. It's a defence mechanism for the frightened to wrap themselves in an armour of self delusion, instead of getting on and accepting the reality of who and what we are as a nation, good and bad. What about the USA and Russia? Aren't they self-confident? Absolutely not. The US has always had an inferiority complex about being a new nation and not having enough 'history ' so it bolsters itself up with flags and anthems. Russia (Putin) hankers for the days of the almighty USSR and needs to make himself feel better by macho posturing and threatening behaviour, classic indications of insecurity. The UK used to laugh at other countries with their politicians in made up uniforms and medals, their military marches with flags and anthems. We prided ourselves on our understated confidence, we didn't need all that nonsense to make us feel patriotic pride. We didn'thave to resort to constant assertions that everythingwe did was 'world beating'. Whatever happened to us? |
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2022 7:03:23 GMT
Thinking further about this confidence thing, I think the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony was a perfect example of how we used to do things. Not for us the vast array of synchronised marching and parading of thousands of regimented and trained minions but an understated, idiosyncratic, original paean to Britain delivered by thousands of ordinary people who volunteered to be a part of it -the NHS, the industrial revolution, our tradition of creativity. Full of humour, in jokes and quirkiness that impressed people all over the world because it was different.
It made me feel immensely proud to be British.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 7:22:52 GMT
Thinking further about this confidence thing, I think the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony was a perfect example of how we used to do things. Not for us the vast array of synchronised marching and parading of thousands of regimented and trained minions but an understated, idiosyncratic, original paean to Britain delivered by thousands of ordinary people who volunteered to be a part of it -the NHS, the industrial revolution, our tradition of creativity. Full of humour, in jokes and quirkiness that impressed people all over the world because it was different. It made me feel immensely proud to be British.     |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2022 8:21:33 GMT
Thought for the day.
What's the point of having an independent ethics adviser.
Who isn't independent and doesn't advise on ethics?
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2022 8:46:30 GMT
Thought for the day. What's the point of having an independent ethics adviser. Who isn't independent and doesn't advise on ethics? Bit like having a corruption tsar who's married to Dido Harding. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 8, 2022 9:29:52 GMT
That’s not to say the left should ditch these issues, far from it (I personally want genuine equality, social justice and the patriarchy dismantled). I hear this term 'patriarchy' quite a lot without quite knowing what it means. I guess it means something about men running the world, but how true is that? We have had two female PMs in this country (UK for ON's benefit) and a current First Minister (?) in one of the sub-nations. The UK also has a female Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary. In other places there have been formidable female leaders - e.g. Golda Meir, Angela Merkel, Indira Gandhi etc. I suppose that there is always likely to be a preponderance of men in top positions simply because many women are more involved with their children than men are, but surely that can only be changed by changing basic biology? |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 8, 2022 9:36:21 GMT
On the anthems thing. I'm early 40s and well remember it being routine on BBC1 at the end of the night. So what? This isn't so much some dramatic attempt at indoctrinating the masses, as much as some folk thinking it was all a bit better when we still had Ceefax.  (I'm mid 40's). |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 8, 2022 9:45:53 GMT
Let's get real here.
How many people stay up and are watching BBC1 at 2.20am when their programming ends and joins BBC News, which appears to have lost its '24' appendage on my schedule look up.
Maybe some Tory MP's would set their PVR's to record it. I can't see it being a big streamer on iPlayer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 9:54:33 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 8, 2022 9:56:12 GMT
Nice to see that statue-gate continues to dominate: makes for speedy scrolling. To be fair, the number of recent posts from you and one or two others bantering over your post counts and the stars and so on is probably similar if not more than those on this topical subject you happen to find so troublingly uninteresting. Just scroll by and let others be, it's easy enough. I very much value your posts but that sounds a bit haughty and patronising.Who made you head boy? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 8, 2022 10:01:49 GMT
Thinking further about this confidence thing, I think the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony was a perfect example of how we used to do things. Not for us the vast array of synchronised marching and parading of thousands of regimented and trained minions but an understated, idiosyncratic, original paean to Britain delivered by thousands of ordinary people who volunteered to be a part of it -the NHS, the industrial revolution, our tradition of creativity. Full of humour, in jokes and quirkiness that impressed people all over the world because it was different. It made me feel immensely proud to be British. I think the 2012 Olympics was the last time I did feel proud to be British. A while after the Brexit vote I remember rewatching the opening ceremony and the contrast between how I'd felt about the country then compared to how I felt now made me feel quite emotional. |
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Post by robert on Jan 8, 2022 10:06:11 GMT
Thought for the day. What's the point of having an independent ethics adviser. Who isn't independent and doesn't advise on ethics? Further thought for today: Is the Monopolies Commission a monopoly and should it therefore be broken up? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 8, 2022 10:07:20 GMT
Let's get real here. How many people stay up and are watching BBC1 at 2.20am when their programming ends and joins BBC News, which appears to have lost its '24' appendage on my schedule look up. Maybe some Tory MP's would set their PVR's to record it. I can't see it being a big streamer on iPlayer. Exactly, what on earth would it achieve? It's just an attempt to resurrect something else from the past which disappeared because it had become pointless and anachronistic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 10:17:32 GMT
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Jan 8, 2022 10:27:53 GMT
Anent flags, anthems, logos, badges, uniforms and other symbols These aren't "natural", "accidental" or "automatic". They are deliberate marketing techniques used by the dominant power to create/reinforce/impose a constructed community. They often work, which is why they have been used for millennia. Where there is sufficient motivation among a group of people to wish to avoid assimilation into the "hive", they provoke resistance and rejection. Where people are happy to be assimilated, that process is reinforced by the requirement for the symbols to be flourished. Seven of nine might have said just this, after she was freed from assimilation.  |
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Post by alec on Jan 8, 2022 10:29:42 GMT
mercian - "What about the USA and Russia? Aren't they self-confident?" Russia is terrified - of NATO, of losing their petro roubles, of their electors. I'm really surprised you actually bothered to ask this about Russia, tbh. Do you really think Putin is relaxed about his electorate? On the USA I think the question has more validity, but yes, the American right is certainly terrified. Their mindset - a little like that of the right wing protests over the Colston statue verdict - is primarily stuck in a false narritive about their country being white European, and under assault from all comers. They are frightened of no longer being the worlds dominant power, of losing their black and white certainties and having to deal with nuance (they tore down a statue - they must be guilty....) they are frightened of global cooperation through collaborative bodies like the UN. Yes, the modern right wing agenda is all about fear.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 10:33:05 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2022 10:33:37 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2022 10:34:10 GMT
I am God! Feel the power of my posts and tremble!
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2022 10:35:07 GMT
That was unexpected thought it would be prophet or demi God first!
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 8, 2022 10:36:08 GMT
That was unexpected thought it would be prophet or demi God first! |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2022 10:37:01 GMT
* lululemon
Perhaps that's 600
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Post by robert on Jan 8, 2022 10:38:04 GMT
Thinking further about this confidence thing, I think the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony was a perfect example of how we used to do things. Not for us the vast array of synchronised marching and parading of thousands of regimented and trained minions but an understated, idiosyncratic, original paean to Britain delivered by thousands of ordinary people who volunteered to be a part of it -the NHS, the industrial revolution, our tradition of creativity. Full of humour, in jokes and quirkiness that impressed people all over the world because it was different. It made me feel immensely proud to be British.     The 2012 Olympics ceremony was indeed a spectacle, although I'm not sure the rest of the world would have appreciated some of the quirkiness but nevertheless, we did. However , if the marching and parading of thousands (well hundreds is more accurate) of regimented and trained ordinary people (minions is a little derogatory) who willingly and enthusiastically participated, had not been synchronised, then I suspect that it would have been a disaster. I suspect that being done now, there would be sections on statue toppling and motorway glueing, perhaps even a mock trial, where criminals are feted and freed and JK Rowling is imprisoned for stating facts and having a sense of humour. It's a mad, mad, world. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 8, 2022 10:44:52 GMT
mercian - "What about the USA and Russia? Aren't they self-confident?" Russia is terrified - of NATO, of losing their petro roubles, of their electors. I'm really surprised you actually bothered to ask this about Russia, tbh. Do you really think Putin is relaxed about his electorate? On the USA I think the question has more validity, but yes, the American right is certainly terrified. Their mindset - a little like that of the right wing protests over the Colston statue verdict - is primarily stuck in a false narritive about their country being white European, and under assault from all comers. They are frightened of no longer being the worlds dominant power, of losing their black and white certainties and having to deal with nuance (they tore down a statue - they must be guilty....) they are frightened of global cooperation through collaborative bodies like the UN. Yes, the modern right wing agenda is all about fear. in part I think it's that the air is almost all out of the balloon on the economic consensus the right have clung to for decades (in English speaking countries anyway, Germany's CDU/CSU were always more nuanced) and all they feel they have left currently is to stoke fears around identity and culture. |
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Post by alec on Jan 8, 2022 10:45:24 GMT
One of the reasons why I am less sanguine about living with covid than many seem to be - www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7102e2.htmThe CDC has found a substantial increase in the risk of children being diagnosed with diabetes following covid 19 infection. Cause unclear, but speculation that it could be the result of covid attacking insulin producing cells in the pancreatic gland. So a current mystery about a serious condition in children apparently caused by covid infection. This is on top of the neurological changes with sttiking similarities to pre diagnosis Alzeheiners cases in post covid suffers, the increased risk of strokes and heart attacks following infection, and the doubling of the risk of death within 12 months of being hospitalised with covid, and that's all before we even mention long covid. There is a persistent myth out there that catching and surviving infections is good for the immune system and human health. Danish researchers recently comprehensively demolished this idea, finding a clear negative correlation between the number of colds and flus people catch and their life expectancy. With novel pthogens it's even worse, because we simply don't know what th long term implication might be, but as time ticks by, it's already looking like we have sparked new waves of dementia in older people and diabetes in children. |
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(I'm mid 40's).
