oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 20:07:26 GMT
While YG haven't released VI figures from their poll on 3 January, they have the results for a wide range of attitudinal questions including -
"On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 means you would never consider voting for them, and 10 means you would definitely consider voting for them, how likely are you to consider voting for the following parties at the next election?"
docs.cdn.yougov.com/rc41lthx32/P_Main_Political_Tracker_Survey_Rotation6_sr_12.pdf
In the Scots sample, the Tories score a resounding victory with a huge lead in those who would never consider voting for them.
SCon 58% : SLD 27% : SLab 23%.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 20:47:45 GMT
Wow Colin, you either have a rather unhealthy obsession with National Anthems or way too much time on your hands!  Just Google " Best National Anthems" ! ? |
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Post by graham on Jan 7, 2022 21:00:17 GMT
73 is no age these days. At least Birmingham Erdington is a safe seat for Labour (10% majority even in 2019). Indeed, no age at all. I'm not sure how sudden it was or whether he'd been suffering from an illness. His Erdington constituency is still pretty safe, but 2019 saw it slip to its lowest Labour majority on record bar the 2010 election. It's still, as you say, a 10% margin (4,700 majority) and you would think, in current circumstances, that Labour would hold with an increased majority. Consideration and discussion of all that to come. For now, I'm just sad for Jack and his family. Apparently his passing was very sudden. He spoke in the Commons just 24 hours ago.Sadly this news highlights how frail life can be. 73 may not sound any age at all today , though as recently as circa 1995 it was the normal male life expectancy here in the UK. |
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Post by graham on Jan 7, 2022 21:09:15 GMT
tancred, I am surprised that you found embarking on a History degree course an easier option in terms of entrance requirements than a Law degree. In my day - early 1970s - both required achieving A level grades of circa BCC under the relative marking system then prevalent.Today's equivalent would doubtless be circa AAB.
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Post by guymonde on Jan 7, 2022 21:23:28 GMT
neilj Playing the 'national' anthem ad nauseum would only serve to remind people what an awful anthem it is. I remember as a student in Wales when watching England play Rugby against any other home nation side I always felt a bit sorry for the England team and fans that after a rousing passionate rendition of the other nations anthem they'd have to mumble that dirge. It's not even a national anthem really but a royal anthem. Someone can correct me but I seem to recall that the Hohenzollerns had a similar one using the same tune prior to the abdication of the Kaiser? If you don't like the words, you could always pretend to be from Lichtenstein and sing theirs instead - it's the same tune. "Oben am jungen Rhein Lehnet sich Liechtenstein An Alpenhöh''n. Dies liebe Heimatland, Das teure Vaterland Hat Gottes weise Hand Für uns erseh'n."  www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-6784,00.html When I'm feeling rebellious (ie most times) I sing the words from the Private Eye record from the 1960s penned I think by Willie Rushton (at a time when her Madge had the begging bowl out) Help save our gracious queen Times now are very lean Help save the queen du du du du Send her your 10 bob notes Long Johns and overcoats Let Phi-i-li-ip have his oats God help the queen |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 7, 2022 21:33:43 GMT
oldnat Given that Labour and lib dem voters share a similar level of lack of enthusiasm about enforced royalist chanting I am not sure if this would be a particular gain for the secessionist supporters.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 7, 2022 21:37:01 GMT
neilj Playing the 'national' anthem ad nauseum would only serve to remind people what an awful anthem it is. I remember as a student in Wales when watching England play Rugby against any other home nation side I always felt a bit sorry for the England team and fans that after a rousing passionate rendition of the other nations anthem they'd have to mumble that dirge. It's not even a national anthem really but a royal anthem. Someone can correct me but I seem to recall that the Hohenzollerns had a similar one using the same tune prior to the abdication of the Kaiser? |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 7, 2022 21:47:45 GMT
I know there are several 60/70's popular music buffs here on UKPR2 and I'm wondering if they can shed light on why Amazon seem to think I want to purchase music by the band 'Middle of the Road'. AFAIK I've never shown any interest in them and AFAIR their hit tunes never appealed when I were young, though the hot pants were good. Is there some sort of algorithm that Amazon use on old fogies to recycle such things?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 21:48:01 GMT
As this anthem thing has been going on - I have the preference for the one in the second verse (I had to copy the first one in for the context). It is Aragon's poem (but the reference to the second Marseilles is quite obvious)
Il chantait lui sous les balles
Des mots sanglant est levé
D'une seconde rafale
Il a fallu l'achever
Une autre chanson française
A ses lèvres est montée
Finissant la Marseillaise
Pour toute l'humanité
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 22:01:56 GMT
Steve
We have no data from the YG survey as to how supporters of different political parties in Scotland responded to the question, so you are extrapolating from the responses of Labour and LD voters in England, as if their views on such matters accurately describe those of voters for these parties in Scotland.
Indeed, comparing the responses to attitudinal questions in Scottish and GB polls would suggest that there are significant differences.
I do not suggest for a moment that those voters for SCon, SLD or SLab who are staunch Protestants, Unionists and fans of the Orange Order would be inclined to support indy just because the anthem played prior to English sporting matches is endlessly repeated on TV. Simply that there are some people who are not convinced (yet) of the benefits of indy, who would be given an emotional nudge in that direction.
You should also remember that there is a significant minority of SLab voters who support independence, so your apparent presumption of a single view, held by voters for UK Labour, lacks any evidential base.
Anthems, like flags and monarchs, are emotional devices designed to weld people into a national bond. Just as they can promote that feeling, they can also alienate many others.
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Post by alec on Jan 7, 2022 22:42:52 GMT
On anthems: someone upthread - apologies, I can't recall who - said something about confidence, and that's very much how I see this rather trite proposal for the the BBC to play our anthem on a daily basis.
I've posted this tale a couple of times before on the old UKPR, but I think the situation is best summed up by a competition the Telegraph ran back when Gordon Brown was wittering on about Britishness and having a national slogan. The DT asked readers for their national slogans. My favourite came in at No 2; "Great Britain: Try writing history without us", but the winner was "No slogans please - we're British".
Countries that have confidence in their identities just get on with it. They don't need the manufactured self image of daily anthems. They don't need slogans or rituals to remind themselves who they are. It's a defence mechanism for the frightened to wrap themselves in an armour of self delusion, instead of getting on and accepting the reality of who and what we are as a nation, good and bad.
I see this very much as part of the fearful Conservative mindset, that sees their country 'under attack', 'swamped', their justice system being perverted by 'wokeness', the EU conspiring against us etc etc. They tell us we are a great, global country, while simultaneously whining about all those nasty foreigners holding us back. We can't be that great if some second rate Jonny foreigner can push us around. Go figure, as the Americans say.
If we are a great country, we don't need to keep telling ourselves that - we just are. You only light candles when you're lost in the dark, and I think the right has been lost in the dark for a long time now.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 7, 2022 23:02:41 GMT
Old nat
As usual you placed a Scotland specific bias to people's thinking.
There's nothing to suggest that Scottish Labour or lib dems would have a different view to those South of the border on the playing of the anthem if anything they would probably be even less enamoured.
I didn't assume a single view and am perfectly aware that a proportion of Labour and lib dems in Scotland support independence, there's a proportion of snp supporters who support the snp as an effective government but don't support secession.
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Post by mercian on Jan 7, 2022 23:11:12 GMT
I've just joined Distributed Proofreaders, which prepares texts from scanned out-of-copyright books for conversion to e-books under Project Gutenberg. |I don't get anything from it apart from the satisfaction of seeing a book I have contributed to on the site. I'll have a look at that. I've been a great advocate of Project Gutenberg for at least 15 years. One of the best things on the internet. Wikipedia is another one, though one has to be a bit cautious with it. I've done a bit of proofreading for PG too, though not as part of any organisation. Because I'm getting a bit forgetful I can't remember whether I uploaded one of my Great-Uncle's books or just intended to, but PG 👍👍👍 |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 23:13:06 GMT
Steve
"As usual you placed a Scotland specific bias to people's thinking."
No. I simply recognise that there are variations in people's views due to a wide variety of factors - including the polity in which they live. In the context of the response to the question as to support for or opposition to the BBC playing GSTQ, I but reported the extremely large variation between Scots responses and those in the southern parts of GB.
That's not "a Scotland specific bias" - simply an accurate reporting of a poll covering, inter alia, Scotland. Londoners may wish to note that support for the idea is more muted than in the English shires. Attitudes do vary from place to place.
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Post by mercian on Jan 7, 2022 23:44:20 GMT
That’s not to say the left should ditch these issues, far from it (I personally want genuine equality, social justice and the patriarchy dismantled). I hear this term 'patriarchy' quite a lot without quite knowing what it means. I guess it means something about men running the world, but how true is that? We have had two female PMs in this country (UK for ON's benefit) and a current First Minister (?) in one of the sub-nations. The UK also has a female Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary. In other places there have been formidable female leaders - e.g. Golda Meir, Angela Merkel, Indira Gandhi etc. I suppose that there is always likely to be a preponderance of men in top positions simply because many women are more involved with their children than men are, but surely that can only be changed by changing basic biology? |
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Post by mercian on Jan 7, 2022 23:49:38 GMT
After a number of questions about my recovery I was asked about the date of my menopause, and after that, whether I was still having menses. I must admit I had assumed the clue was in my name, but I suppose today one never knows... I went for a checkup on a wart-like growth and was asked if I was pregnant! When I said that I was fat enough, but wasn't the beard a bit of a giveaway I was told that they had to ask everyone ! Political correctness gone mad! 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on Jan 8, 2022 0:02:02 GMT
I think this plays into the perception that Labour aren't patriotic, and hence presumably Starmer's attempt to revise that opinion. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 8, 2022 0:02:42 GMT
mercian
"in this country (UK for ON's benefit)"
What a verbose way of putting it! You could have saved your ageing fingers some work instead of needlessly making those extra 35 key strokes, had you simply typed "UK", or even 37 had you not bothered to put in that unnecessary qualifier, since the context didn't require it.
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Post by mercian on Jan 8, 2022 0:05:00 GMT
Anyone old enough (basically everyone on here) will remember when the film ended, "God Save the Queen" was drowned out by the clattering of the swing seats as everyone fled faster than if the place had been on fire. . Some of us stood to attention. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 8, 2022 0:07:24 GMT
I completely oppose this - I don't hate the monarchy but this is way over the top. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 8, 2022 0:08:38 GMT
tancred , I am surprised that you found embarking on a History degree course an easier option in terms of entrance requirements than a Law degree. In my day - early 1970s - both required achieving A level grades of circa BCC under the relative marking system then prevalent.Today's equivalent would doubtless be circa AAB. History required BCC/BBD while law required BBB at the same university. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 8, 2022 0:13:17 GMT
Indeed, no age at all. I'm not sure how sudden it was or whether he'd been suffering from an illness. His Erdington constituency is still pretty safe, but 2019 saw it slip to its lowest Labour majority on record bar the 2010 election. It's still, as you say, a 10% margin (4,700 majority) and you would think, in current circumstances, that Labour would hold with an increased majority. Consideration and discussion of all that to come. For now, I'm just sad for Jack and his family. Apparently his passing was very sudden. He spoke in the Commons just 24 hours ago.Sadly this news highlights how frail life can be. 73 may not sound any age at all today , though as recently as circa 1995 it was the normal male life expectancy here in the UK. Indeed - my father died at 75 and my mother at 78. To say that 73 is 'no age at all' is pretty insulting and really quite daft as well. It also plays into the hands of those who want to keep raising the state pension age. Generally those who live into their 90s are people of the richer persuasion and those with ox-like constitutions. One fifth of all men die before age 65! |
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Post by mercian on Jan 8, 2022 0:24:03 GMT
Countries that have confidence in their identities just get on with it. They don't need the manufactured self image of daily anthems. They don't need slogans or rituals to remind themselves who they are. It's a defence mechanism for the frightened to wrap themselves in an armour of self delusion, instead of getting on and accepting the reality of who and what we are as a nation, good and bad. What about the USA and Russia? Aren't they self-confident? |
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Post by mercian on Jan 8, 2022 0:29:23 GMT
mercian
"in this country (UK for ON's benefit)"
What a verbose way of putting it! You could have saved your ageing fingers some work instead of needlessly making those extra 35 key strokes, had you simply typed "UK", or even 37 had you not bothered to put in that unnecessary qualifier, since the context didn't require it. I don't know what 37 means, but I deliberately specify that it's for your benefit because you're the only one who frequently quibbles about what posters mean by 'this country' and similar phrases. I suppose it's in the forlorn hope that you'll be embarrassed. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Jan 8, 2022 0:40:14 GMT
Mercian
35 +2 = 37.
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Jan 8, 2022 0:49:03 GMT
France, BVA poll (via Europe Elects):
Presidential election (among likely voters)
Macron (LREM-RE): 25% (+1)
Le Pen (RN-ID): 17% (+1)
Pécresse (LR-EPP): 16% (-1)
Zemmour (REC-*): 12% (-1)
...
+/- vs. 6-8 December 2021
Fieldwork: 5-6 January 2021
Sample size: 892
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Post by eor on Jan 8, 2022 0:49:56 GMT
On the anthems thing. I'm early 40s and well remember it being routine on BBC1 at the end of the night. So what?
This isn't so much some dramatic attempt at indoctrinating the masses, as much as some folk thinking it was all a bit better when we still had Ceefax.
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Post by pete on Jan 8, 2022 0:51:34 GMT
Countries that have confidence in their identities just get on with it. They don't need the manufactured self image of daily anthems. They don't need slogans or rituals to remind themselves who they are. It's a defence mechanism for the frightened to wrap themselves in an armour of self delusion, instead of getting on and accepting the reality of who and what we are as a nation, good and bad. What about the USA and Russia? Aren't they self-confident? The US is virtually at civil war with itself, so no I don't think they are confident. Russia, well its not a democracy and Putin may be confident I doubt most of its people are. |
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Post by eor on Jan 8, 2022 1:05:17 GMT
Nice to see that statue-gate continues to dominate: makes for speedy scrolling. To be fair, the number of recent posts from you and one or two others bantering over your post counts and the stars and so on is probably similar if not more than those on this topical subject you happen to find so troublingly uninteresting. Just scroll by and let others be, it's easy enough. |
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Post by eor on Jan 8, 2022 1:07:45 GMT
France, BVA poll (via Europe Elects):
Presidential election (among likely voters)
Macron (LREM-RE): 25% (+1)
Le Pen (RN-ID): 17% (+1)
Pécresse (LR-EPP): 16% (-1)
Zemmour (REC-*): 12% (-1)
...
+/- vs. 6-8 December 2021
Fieldwork: 5-6 January 2021
Sample size: 892 It's interesting oldnat - there is some variation from poll to poll but Zemmour is consistently coming fourth and starting to look a little adrift. If he were to withdraw it could shake things up considerably. |
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